Germancar1

I didn't agree with anything you said. What you did was post what I already said 15 posts ago. Don't try it.

Numbers please. Until you post something factual then you don't know what you're talking about. Sales numbers please. Post them.

Here I'll help you.

SL :

2012 - 4899
2013 - 7007

Seems like a rise to me.

S-Class:

2012 - 11,794
2013 - 13,303

Seems like a rise to me, especially considering the new S didn't arrive until OCT 2013.

Yes MB is believed to be unhappy with the SL's design. It got caught up between 2 different design heads and languages and sat on ice for 2 years. You are right there. Still has nothing to do with the sales going from 4K to 7K year over year so it would seem like buyers don't care about this, something you're not (buyer).


Regarding sales you DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Design, yes it unfortunate that they couldn't get it right in line with the rest of the lineup. You're right there, WRONG about the sales of the SL though.

M

K-A

That rise in sales is VERY bad considering it replaced a 10 year old design! The 2003 SL outsold it 10 years ago. A new SL should open up with WELL over 100% YOY gains over the previous model. The new SL being received SO poorly will easily see its sales crawl to a halt much sooner than later. And not to mention, the fact that they're being given away for huge discounts is also a reason as to those sales, and is telling as to how un-specially the new SL is received.

K-A

Our difference on this subject is that I think the slowdown in sales is more-so attributed to the poor design and constant about-face changes, not to mention emerging lack of identity within the growing lower-price point cars M-B is putting out. You attribute it to the sales trends of some of their competitors in similar segments.

Why don't we just accept that and move on from it.

Germancar1

Do you not realize that the market was different then? NO car introduced now is selling at the same rate it did back then. Goes back to the same point I've been making since you started this. Do you not grasp that? None of the makers at this price point is moving cars at the rate they did just 6-7 years ago. Do you really not understand this? Do you need to see the numbers for EVERY BRAND in this space?


M

Germancar1

Nope, the problem is that all you have is theories. I have given you you hard facts about EVERY BRAND not doing as well in this space as they did 6-7 years ago. You haven't given anything but guesswork, I have given you the numbers and the links over and over and over. FACTS vs your guesswork. That is the problem.

WTF would a buyer of a SL care what a CLA looks like? AT BMW what is keeping the 7-Series from reaching its previous heights? Ditto for the Lexus LS? Ditto for Bentley? All these brands are suffering from the same problem as you think Mercedes is???

M

v8plus4

S-class sales took a dump in the 2nd and 3rd quarter of 2013, then spiked in the 4th quarter. January was up over 25% vs. Jan. 2013.

The increases are due to the new model. Do spy shots of the 2015 C somehow decrease the desirability of the 2014 S? Not for me. Next year, will the new C cannibalize sales of the S? Not likely.

Does the GLA negatively affect my perception of the brand? Nope. It would be a nice, safe car for my niece or nephew. As would an X1.

Not everyone can, or even wants to drive the upper end models. Again, drive what you like. what's the point of bashing or flaming the other guy?

K-A

Mercedes is suffering from its own problems, as are the rest. Not everything is universal, these things are dynamic, you know. All you have are theories as well, you don't know exactly why they're seeing a decline in sales up there. In reality, both theories working together are extremely likely to be true.

Hell yes, a more expensive M-B looking like a much cheaper (more and more cheaper ones) model cannibalizes and effects its prestige. It's the very reason I think the upper segment M-B's get more and more unpopular, lol.

Germancar1

Look at the SL's numbers in particular:

2002 - 13,717
2003 - 13,318
2004 - 12,885
2005 - 10,080
2006 - 8462
2007 - 6126
2008 - 5464
2009 - 4025
2010 - 2385
2011 - 1449
2012 - 4899
2013 - 7007

Seems to me that SL is climbing back to where it was in 2007 and beyond, will it reach 2002-2005 heights, I doubt it. That could be design or increased competition, price, any number of things. All speculation.

M

K-A

Wow, bravo, this is the best and calmest post I've seen in this forum in a long time. Sensical, respectful, and I agree with it. We all have our theories, people here have become very reactionary and hostile toward anything not 110% pro their own viewpoint or choice of brand, painting a naysayer "the villain".

K-A

BINGO! That's precisely what I've been saying! All speculation. My speculation is my speculation, and I think it holds water, you think it's the other factors, tomato tomato.

Germancar1

How in the world can HARD SALES NUMBERS be theories? You're out of gas dude. Now numbers are theories?

Didn't say EVERYTHING was universal, only that sales of Bentley, MB, BMW and Lexus top end models ALL DROPPED from their previous heights. That is a FACT AND IS UNIVERSAL TO THOSE BRAND.

How is that a theory when the numbers PROVE IT?

So a buyer of a S550 is going to pass because of the CLA or C-Class? PROVE IT. Find a buyer that did that.

What would he buy, an A8 that looks like an A4 or a 7-Series that looks like a 3-Series?

M

Germancar1

So you think a downturn in the whole market has nothing to do with it, even though it has touch ALL the BRANDS in this space? Are you really that naive? The recession from 2008-2009 has NOTHING to do with it???

Speculation is all you have. I HAVE GIVEN YOU FACTS ABOUT EVERY BRAND and the downturn they ALL FACED.

Not sure why you can't grasp that. NO ONE is selling at the top end like they did back then. Except Porsche. Not sure why you think this is singularly a Mercedes issue.


M

Germancar1

Respectfully you don't know who you're talking about here. K/A is nothing but a troll here. Read his post history and then get back to me. Flaming him? With facts? You're saying the same thing to him that I have been saying for a while, yet he agrees with you. He is a troll that can't keep the same line of reasoning from one post to another. He changes the argument everytime he is proven wrong or clueless.

M

v8plus4

Flaming/bashing wasn't directed at you.

K-A

Like I said, I think it's a multitude of things. Very very much including cannibalization and loss of reasoning to aspire to upper range models by being affected by the likened and dilution aspect of the lower models.

I know LOTS of people who said they've passed on spending six figures on M-B's because the brand has proliferated too far downmarket and that was BEFORE the C looked like an identical version of the S. I myself wouldn't consider an S if a C looks exactly like it. The CLA just makes matters more diluted there.

Sure, some, many, people may not care, but to think "no one would" is very naive and I get that you have an undying passion for M-B, but it's a very simple and logical occurrence, and certainly has something to do with slowing sales on upper segment models.

The difference between your and his posts is that maybe he doesn't agree with me, but he realizes this is only a conversation about cars and doesn't get frantically obsessively insulting about it. Therefore if this conversation was between me and him, I would have said my piece, he would have said his, we'd agree wholly or in the middle, and move on.

v8plus4

Again, this begs the question, WHAT do these people buy if they base their purchase on what ANOTHER car looks like? Are they buying 7's if a 7 looks like a 3? Where do you go when the Phantom looks like the Ghost?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

Germancar1

The only problem is that until now you have NEVER stated that it could be other things. All you kept saying is that it was the C-Class and CLA keeping the upper model from reaching their previous sales heights. Now you're changing your tune (again).

I haven't insulted you. I am actually shocked that someone isn't able to grasp or process actual facts (sales numbers) when they're presented to them.

You also change your slant with every post. You say sales are declining and then I PROVE they aren't so you then turn around and say that isn't good enough.

I mean your agenda is clear. You hate any and everything Mercedes-Benz because you have discovered BMW. That is the bottom line here and that is ok because as you know I love BMW also, but I'm not this blind fanboy you seem to be. You still haven't addressed the FWD, 2-Series MINIVAN they just introduced. What does that do to BMW?

Anyone that simply walked away from a SL, S or CL because of a C-Class is an idiot, a moron if you will, IMO. I'd argue that they weren't really going to buy one anyway. Every since the 190E, the smallest Mercedes has looked more or less like the biggest one and that is one of the dumbest reasons I've ever heard to walk away from a S-Class.

Your theories about the C and CLA hurting the S are unfounded until the sales data is in for the S-Class, for which we don't have full year yet.

If you look at the SL sales numbers, they dropped right along with the age of the car and now they're getting back up, again flies in the face of your "theory". Your theories are unfounded.

M

Germancar1

These people were not buyers to begin with. They surely didn't buy an A8 with it looking JUST LIKE a A4.

M

K-A

There might not be other choices, however they're clearly unhappy that upper range M-B's have lost their distinction relative to before. The W221 looked like no M-B under it, family resemblance yes, but the lines and overall design were mostly its own. The W222 I think will have no presence in premature time because we'll constantly see that design worn by the C. M-B IMO is playing a dangerous game with FWD, now extremely low priced CLA/GLA's (I think Mercedes has the lowest starting price of their competitors now? That's the opposite impression that M-B used to give), as they have very similar looks to what M-B used to be known for: The upper segment, higher margin cars.

Yes, previous S' have looked like smaller models, but it isn't totally comparable as previously M-B themselves were far less diluted and had far less "entry level" models, so an exclusive brand can get away with a shared design strategy more-so. Now with M-B selling cars at a much lower "purchase average" than before, having more low margin cars than high margin ones, the loss of upper range identity becomes more paramount, IMO.

I think if we look at this forum in 6 years, people will think the S and new CL ("S Coupe") aren't very special or noticeable designs, and I think that will largely have to do with them not giving enough incentives to uphold their price tags when you have direct lookalikes running around at much lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if the new S Coupe in its last year has lower sales than the current C216 for that very reason, and it's pretty obvious that will probably happen to the current SL which has already been received so lukewarmly, to put it moderately.

Germancar1

This whole thing about looks just proves that those people are really missing the point of buying a larger car. The C-Class can't touch the S-Class in any other regard other than looks. These people sound really stupid to me, especially when all the competing brands more or less do the same thing. If there are no other choices what then? What did they buy? S-Class is the best car in the segment, yet because the C looks like it, one would pass on it? Just plain dumb and reeks of a brainless badge snob to me. The car itself is brilliant.

M

K-A

For one it's precisely why Maserati is trying to enter more accessible segments, and their whole advertising campaign. Jaguar as well for that matter. Of course that's not saying either come close on build quality or luxury.

I do have a feeling we'll see more uber-luxury brands try and approach closer to S Class prices as time goes on to give shoppers who crave more exclusivity and styling based on higher priced cars, not lower, that option.

v8plus4

That's EXACTLY what MB is doing further down the scale with the CLA. They're drawing in the Sonata guy, or the Accord guy, buyers who may aspire to own an S (or 7 or A8), but aren't there yet. It's the entry level to one of, if not THE most historically significant brands in the industry. An icon. It's the hook that hopefully turns them into lifelong customers. And here's the truth: it wouldn't work if the S wasn't something to aspire to. As Germancar1 said, "The car itself is brilliant".

You still can't convince me that the lower-range models make the upper-range models less desirable. If anything, the brilliance of the upper-range drives people to the lower-range.

Germancar1

Exactly! This is exactly why people want a CLA and S-Classes are sold out. It is all made up nonsense. Every luxury brand on the planet is in the process of reaching downwards or have already done it.

M

v8plus4

And it works the same way across a lot of other brands. Do you think the 1-series makes an m5 guy any less likely to buy the m5? Or a 7 guy to buy a 7? Hell no. But what do you think initially attracted the 1-series guy to BMW? Certainly not the 1 series! It's because the m5's and B7's etc are such bad-asses! You don't sell a guy one car, you sell him several over his lifetime.

Germancar1

Exactly.

M