Wolfman

It seems biased based on your personal experience.

MB just like many other complex cars these days shouldn't be owned without warranty as even small issues can rack up huge bills. That said, the engine/drivetrain are typically the most solid parts of the car. I do consider this low risk. Battery failure in the Tesla on the other hand is not only high risk but an absolute certainty. Every battery fails in time. No exception.
Hope that this happens outside of ownership. Over the next years, I can easily see used electric car sales having to list the battery condition, along with their miles...

AppleFan1

"Battery failure in the Tesla on the other hand is not only high risk but an absolute certainty. Every battery fails in time. No exception.

Hope that this happens outside of ownership. Over the next years, I can easily see used electric cars sales having to list the battery condition, along with their miles..."

I can't speak about batteries for electric cars since I know very little about them, but if these batteries are anything like the batteries in hybrids, then they almost "last forever".

WEBSRFR

For the most part knowing the VIN number, model year, and mileage gives you a very good idea about the condition of the battery pack. Apart from that, technically speaking, the only way to do a true test of the battery capacity is to do a full charge and discharge cycle. This might become a popular test when these cars are 5-10 years old.

I've done extensive research on the Tesla batteries and from what I gather, the batteries should last for about 8-10 years with minimal effect on use. They use a very sophisticated software and climate control system to heat and cool the batteries to maximize battery life. I believe it's the same technology batteries that will be in the upcoming B class and possibly a future S class.

The Model S batteries are a couple of generations ahead of the batteries in the hybrids and even current EVs by BMW. This is the reason no one has yet to release an EV with barely more than half the 300 mile range of the Model S.

Also the Model S is covered by an 8 year unlimited mile warranty for the battery from what I gather and that's about the biggest and only major thing to go wrong with that car mechanically. Even the braking system is very rarely used because you control acceleration with one pedal and when you lift your foot you get regen breaking. I did most of my test drive with just one foot.

Just wish I could stick that drivetrain of the Model S into an S class!

cookstar

Batteries in the Tesla will stop holding a proper charge eventually just like a gasoline engine will put out 200 hp when broken in and less as it ages but battery packs have to be replaced in the Tesla which cost $$$$. there is an article out on the web that mentions Tesla stating that if you use the supercharger stations the battery packs will last x number of years vs filling up the battery the slower way. As stated above what would be the resale value in x number of years with a high mileage vehicle? Battery packs are $12,000 to replace according to a quick google search.

As it stands Tesla offers an 8 year unlimited mileage battery warranty, so for 99.99% of us IF we buy new we are ok.

read below links

http://www.teslamotors.com/it_IT/for...s-battery-life

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showt...ery-Packs-Last

Wolfman

My point about battery live wasn't about the warranty, it was about that they will fail in time as a certainty.
Using current battery tech. an 8-10 year battery live IMO is wishful thinking and we will see in time how the range will be impacted.

K-A

Bear in mind that in 8 years from now, batteries might be a lot less expensive.

I can't stress enough how short-sighted I think people are in regards to Tesla's future, or EV's in general. And I don't mean offense by that. People seem to act as if time will stand still and we've seen the best of what EV's can do, yet.

We're in the horse-and-buggy era for EV's. Imagine what Tesla can do in, say, 50 years?

Tesla is already planning to start a factory ("Gigafactory") solely to build batteries, not only for themselves, but for other companies. In 10 years from now, range will be better, power even more significant, and supply more plentiful, which should drive prices down.

Again, Daimler has invested in them for a reason. M-B aren't even gonna dare try and take on Tesla in the EV game, instead, they struck a deal to where they can let Tesla supply them with TESLA's EV expertise, if the EV revolution pushes hard enough to where M-B starts falling too behind with their ICE power trains.

cookstar

8 year warranty will take care of that.

Wolfman

It actually doesn't.

The range of the the S60 is 208 miles and the S85 is 265 miles (was surprised as I kept reading 300 mile range in this thread).

While batteries eventually fail, they also loose capacity. Everyone with a laptop has probably seen that.

Tesla states:
"The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty."

Now it sounds like they still replace them if they drop more than 30%, but that appears to be a soft number.

So if you S60 drops to a 150 mile range, you are out of luck.

I like electric cars and would definitely switch to one if it meets the criteria (design, luxury, range), but I am hoping for newer tech batteries. Since Tesla's big plan (and probably Apple's interest) is the new battery factory they want to build, so this may get resolved in time but for now a gas powered car has less predictable component failures than an electric car.

WEBSRFR

I can explain that. To maintain battery longevity, you can program the car to only use up 80 or 90% of the battery capacity for normal driving. Given that about 90% of the population does not drive more than 50-60 miles in a day, the 80-90% charge is sufficient and practical for most situations. In the event you are going on a long road trip, you can do a "range charge" that utilizes full battery capacity.

Like K-A had mentioned, we are still in the horse and buggy era of EV cars. I am sure future generations of battery technology will give you enhanced range and charging options but for now at least for my needs, what is available is sufficient to be used as my only car and daily driver.

With hundreds and thousands of cars out by the time it happened, I am confident Tesla or someone else will figure out a way to offer battery replacement option at a reasonable cost. As I had mentioned earlier, when you do the battery replacement say between 10-15 years after the car went into service, you end up with a drive-train that is just as good as new and that quite old car will once again match the performance specs of a new car. This is something that's very hard to get with an ICE with all the mechanical components in it.

I agree with you about the technology could be better. I respectfully disagree about component failures. One of my justifications for getting a Model S is never having to deal with oil changes, emission checks or maintaining an internal combustion engine, transmission, differential, emission control system, all of which have components that can break.

There's hardly anything to break in an electric motor and the battery is good for 8-10 years at least and that's really all I need.

I wonder how far along Mercedes is with building a full electric S class with a 300 mile range. They keep wanting to saddle their higher end cars with an internal combustion engine with all their BS hybrids when the technology exists now to build a high performance/high range electric car.

AppleFan1

"I wonder how far along Mercedes is with building a full electric S class with a 300 mile range. They keep wanting to saddle their higher end cars with an internal combustion engine with all their BS hybrids when the technology exists now to build a high performance/high range electric car."

WEBSRFR, I cannot argue with you on this. Yes, the technology is here for MB and Lexus to truly build a magnificent EV with all the luxury comforts of the S550 instead of screwing around with hybrids. I honestly believe the EV is the future.

K-A

Recently, while trying to imagine how EV's will become even more convenient to charge (aside from the obvious; improvements to charge speed, even longer lasting batteries, more charge stations, etc., which rest assured WILL all happen), I saw an ad from Qualcomm that answered my question: Wireless Charging. I was astonished and it pretty much solidified how vastly superior EV powertrains are, especially when it comes to sustainability, efficiency and functionality than ICE technology which is over a hundred years at this point, and already has in most ways fallen behind brand new technology. Imagine what EV's will be doing in 100 years?

People talk about "the sound of an engine", yet today all cars are trying to be so quiet, including large engine vehicles, that you feel like they're trying to do their best EV impression, not to mention so many gears in transmissions, why not just go infinite with EV's?

Qualcomm's wireless charge technology can be such a breakthrough, it'd make "recharging" or "refueling" your vehicle more convenient than one could have ever imagined before. It apparently is a sort of "mat", that you park your car over where it charges while you go about your day or night. However, looking even more forward, who's to say eventually the technology to wirelessly charge your car while you drive won't come about? The EV possibilities truly seem endless, especially when you factor in how young into this automotive revolution we're in.

A final thought: Aside from the obvious cost savings of EV's over gas cars when it comes to said "refueling/recharging". With the ever expanding free-charging stations, be it by Tesla who lets their own charge at no cost, as much as they'd like, or by universal charging stations which are also free, if it's convenient for you, you don't even ever have to use your own electrical source to charge your car. So not only can you easily save hundreds of dollars a month that you'd spend on environmentally destroying fuel, but you can even save the $7-8 it'd take your own electrical source to charge up your own car (for a full charge), if you so care.

At this point, especially if this wireless charging thing comes to fruition, the reasons for automakers to not dive into investing their futures on EV technology seem more and more ridiculous.

One more thing to add: If anyone here hasn't yet, go drive that goofy looking BMW i3 to see what a bare-basic form of EV can do today. It's one of the most impressive cars I've driven. More fun than the Model S, and probably more "BMW driving" than any current BMW. Gobs of torque, you can't keep your foot out of it through that linear acceleration accompanied by a tastefully cool "Spaceshift takeoff" sound, and even with skinny tires, a boxy architecture and no "M Sport suspension" type of options, it handles miraculously, sharp, precise and nimble. Certainly better than any gas powered economy cars out there. It makes me wonder how incredibly the i8 will drive, even though I find both are behind Tesla in range and various EV technology still, not to mention look too campy.

absent

Great discussion on it's own but what does it have to do with S63 being a bad ***?

Chucky300

Typical K-A.

It's always about him.

hyperion667

nice sig pic main

LovinMercedes

You are being too kind.

Chucky300

Took a lot of effort. Believe me.

Chucky300

Thank ya!

WEBSRFR

It has to do with the S63 could have been even more bad *** if it had a high performance long range pure electric drivetrain like the Tesla Model S.

After I drove a high performance EV like the P85 without an internal combustion engine to kick in when you nail it, I just can't go back to ever dealing with a mechanical transmission. The instant maximum torque being available from 0 to almost 100 mph is surreal. I'll never buy another gasoline powered car.

As a Mercedes enthusiast for many years it is sad to see Mercedes fall behind on the next generation of the car by building nonsense BS hybrids and golf carts like the B class when they can build a no compromise electric supercar with the technology available today.

Wolfgang

^ Available from AMG.

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/webspeci...-drive/eng.php

Jason B

Awesome, and look at this from 2009:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/16/o...-sls-gullwing/

One of the reasons that Daimler said it was investing $50 million in Tesla Motors was the upstart's ability to move quickly and develop systems faster than could be done at Daimler. Given that, we may well see the electric SLS sooner rather than later.

And:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/19/d...and-engineeri/

MDMercedesGuy

When is your Tesla due to be delivered?

WEBSRFR

Sadly I have to wait because it is not yet available with AWD. It's rumored to be available with AWD hopefully in 2015 when the Model X comes out as they both share the same platform. I already have a design/remodel company coming to widen the garage of our 1940s house because the Model S is slightly wider than the S class, at 86 inches. This is something I would have had to do anyway because both the S class and the Model S are wider than my E550 that barely fits in the garage. In any case I just need a 240 volt outlet out in there and I'd be ready

I had always dreamed of owning an S class but the Model S killed it for me. My car is old and need replacement and I considered getting an S550 for a few years until AWD is available for the Model S but my girlfriend said that I will never be completely happy with it because that's not the car I really want and she's right. At this price point it make sense to be absolutely content with what you buy, especially because I like to buy outright and hold on to a vehicle for a while.

Anyway, the wait continues. It's a shame that the upcoming S400 is a compromised hybrid. Who knows, maybe if Tesla takes a while to add AWD we might see a high performance long range S class from Mercedes.

Like I said before, if Mercedes offered a 300 mile range S class that can reach 60 in less than 5 seconds I would likely never have even looked into a Tesla. Right now Mercedes has completely ceded the high end EV market to Tesla for anyone looking to buy a no compromise EV as a daily driver.

They need to stop with the hybrid BS and compromised 100 mile range golf carts and build a serious EV.

Wolfman

I understand you want Mercedes to build the EV S-Class, matching the Tesla specs. Everything else is old-school junk.

Not sure if you realize how silly this sounds.

The last thing MB will do is to experiment with their flagship product. That simply wouldn't make any sense especially as EV's are still not proven over extended periods of time.

That holds true for long-term reliability, battery life/replacement/disposal and the supply chain since there aren't exactly a lot of companies out there making EV batteries...
That also goes for the Model S. We'll have to see how gracefully this car ages in design and technology.

But more importantly EV is a tiny niche. No need to state Tesla's sales numbers either. It is a small niche company serving a tiny niche of the market.

Most parts of the world doesn't have and will not have the infrastructure for EV's for a VERY long time, even if the tech is mature.
Many countries can't even provide consistent electricity in their cities; let alone a super-charger network

Btw. if the S500 Hybrid delivers 80mpg I will not call that BS...

K-A

Hybrid's are just an interim between the dying ICE age and EV age, it's kind of here-nor-there to keep investing in Hybrid technology, IMO.

The only reason EV's are a "niche" is because only one (startup) is doing it, and we see how rapidly it has taken market share and gain vast notoriety. M-B or any car company who isn't investing in EV's is basically giving signals that they will be left behind when the transition starts to really come to fruition. "Adapt or die".

I think investing in EV tech is paramount right now, and I guarantee after the surprise success of the Model S, M-B and the like are planning their next generation (i.e W223, for example) to be at least EV compatible. BMW has invested their future into their EV "i" cars, which signifies they're planning on staying relevant when EV's do become more mainstream. Unfortunately, the "i" cars are gimmicky at best right now, as they have lots of viability kinks, but like I said before, even the bottom-rung one (i3) drives superbly.

In 50+ years from now, when people look back on history, those who are kicking and screaming about clinging onto their/our internal combustion engines will be perceived akin to those who refused to believe that the earth was round, or refused a cell phone to cling onto their pagers, or refused any social and/or technological movement that we now look back on and make fun of them for, or like how Microsoft looked when their CEO laughed off the iPhone and iPad, or how Blackberry users thought the iPhone was a passing fad.... you get the point.

I love an ICE engine too, it holds all kinds of passionate flair, memories, nostalgia, engineering feats that I've memorized and have fun identifying. However, the quicker people get off the gas-fume high, the quicker we can get EV technology rolling into its vast potential (i.e, companies will have to start heavily investing in it) thus the quicker we'll see expansions of "recharge" stations, and of public-parking buildings being required to have EV plug adapters/outlets, etc.

Arlen777

I am trying to figure out if S63 has the same front bumper as S550 just without LEDs? Or is it bigger?