nyca

The Porsche system on the 918 is what you are going to see emerge. You can plug it in if you want. But you don't have to, a flywheel constantly charges the battery with excess power bled off the gasoline engine, plus the usual regenerative braking charge, etc. While in the proper mode, when the battery pack can sustain EV only driving, the engine cuts out and you cruise on electric for 25 miles. Then the gas engine starts up when the battery is drained, and the charge cycle loop begins again. No range issues, no plugging in unless its convenient (at home), no driving to some charging station placed somewhere by the manufacturer in the middle of your trip, etc. That's a sane system.

DATURK

Someone needs to change the title "S63 AMG Bad A....", although I learned great deal about Tesla (which I re consider about my decision about S63...lol), but I really was looking to gain some more info about the s63....sorry, I hate to be a deal breaker here but, I wish the admin can change the title to Tesla vs. MB S63.....by the way thnx to everyone for their input on Tesla, I really enjoy the post, and learned a lot about it...!!!

K-A

The major players are paying such close attention because they were taken off guard. Tesla literally "Steve Jobs'd" them right under their noses, and now they have a viable and real threat to their futures at their hands. Daimler made nice by investing and helping Tesla, which they'll need as they fall behind during the EV transition. I get the DeLorean analogy, but it's very inaccurate. DeLorean was a very niche car that wasn't practical enough to get far from its conception, became iconic almost instantly in a very rare way (iconic movie) therefore rendering it a gimmick, a damn cool one, but one. Also, its drivetrain engineering was never one of its strongest suits. Also, there's that whole scandal thing. Tesla seems to be the real deal.

Really? We're now getting into hypothetical situations about American only allowing us one car as a reason to avoid Tesla? I get that you're explaining why the concept is flawed, but it's far too fear-mongering to really be why the concept is flawed. What if the government outlawed gas stations? Then we'd all have to get Tesla's. I'd say the latter is more likely than the former, if anything.

As the technology progressive, and it is FAST, portable chargers that hold an efficient amount of charge to power a Tesla to get to its ever expanding charge stations (if one doesn't already exist), wireless charging, etc.

They're gotten set aside because the "earth is flat" "horse and buggie" mind frame has kept it at bay. Also because oil is a HUGE industry and has abilities to coax the human populous into thinking certain ways. Hence the kicking and scramming by a clearly dying ICE era toward an obviously already showcased EV superiority. Tesla was the breakthrough, now the public is on their side, they showed that they can engineer what Elon Musk stated very truly "We wanted to make a car that isn't bought simply because it's an EV, but because it's the best car in the world.

Funnily enough I too don't find the Model S enticing or practical enough for my lifestyle and necessities just yet, especially for the price. But I acknowledge that it's clearly the future, and I'd rather we weed out the "old guard" thinking as quickly as possible so we can get on with expanding EV tech at a pace more rapid than what we've already seen. The possibilities are endless and will only bring good stuff


Or TSLA will prove to be the real deal (if it hasn't already) and become a $100B company. I'd bank on that over it tumbling. I did also sell my TSLA because the valuation is too risk, but again, I wouldn't be surprised to see it make much higher highs. The smart and progressive investors think this could be the first true automotive revolution since the car was basically invented. If it holds true, Tesla will forefront the next generation.

On another note, it's interesting how little Americans pay attention to the fact that it's an AMERICAN CAR, not saying that earns it the ability to get your vote automatically, but it's something to be proud of nonetheless. Sounds funny, yes, since we're used to American Cars being junk and a joke to the automotive world in recent decades. However, Tesla just trounced the big ole' rich guys with free thinking, progressive spirit and sustainability on its mind. What's more American than that? It wants to stop feeding money to make select people in other Countries extremely rich (talking about oil tycoons).

America for so long got left behind in so many technology and engineering related ways. The 90's of the becomin-garbage Microsoft and junky Ford/GM days really culminated with that.

Then we had Apple change the world, a host of other new-age tech companies who followed their lead, and now Tesla putting American cars back at the forefront of the affluent and progressive-minded consumer. It's been a long time coming. Again, I don't believe in mindlessly buying or supporting something simply becomes it derives from a similar geographical location as you do. However, Tesla is something to be proud of, it's literally home-grown. GM and Ford build cars in Mexico, Canada, etc. Tesla, literally right in good ole' CA.

Jason B

Couldn't have said it better ^^. Now, just give me those motorized door handles on the S, and I'm content

Mike5215

Good points all around. My misgivings about a pure EV in general are all infrastructure related. Once fast-charging stations are ubiquitous that will change. It's interesting that a lot of Tesla stations are at shopping malls. I'm guessing Tesla's pitch to the mall is that once an affluent Tesla driver pulls in and hooks up he'll have a few hours to kill/shop. Once enough end destinations...the grocery store, the movie theater...have charging stations so you can skip around town topping off, the EV becomes a lot more practical. We're probably a decade away.

For example, a trip my wife and I take a couple of times a year is a two hour drive out to a nice resort hotel on the beach. There's no charging opportunity there. Over the next couple of days we'll make trips to go shopping, see a movie, eat at a restaurant, etc. There's likely no charging opportunities there either. Then it's a two hour drive back home. Do we reconfigure our plans around finding a place to plug in or risk not having enough juice for the drive home? I don't think I want to spend $100,000 on a car that has a needs-structure similar to that of a three year old child.

My misgivings about the Tesla S specifically is that it's the first production car from a company that's been in existence for about ten seconds in terms of automotive history. I agree that so far it appears to be building a quality product.

Lastly, Tesla does not have "dealerships" right? They have manufacturer's outlets. Can you trade in your current car at a Tesla store? That would kind of be a big deal.

Jason B

They could easily install a regenerative brake system, and use that power to re-charge itself "on-the-go". That would be cool.

Also, they could add solar panels to the roof, ala the Fisker Karma:

- anything that gives some additional power would help.

WEBSRFR

The Model S offers multiple levels of regenerative breaking and it works very effectively. When you take your foot off the accelerator, it goes into regenerative mode and energy is added back to the battery pack. On the Tesla forums people talk about how if you start at the top of a tall mountain and drive down you have more power in the battery pack when you reach the bottom of the mountain than when you started...

When I test drove the Model S I used only the accelerator pedal for 90% of the driving. Due to regenerative breaking you hardly use the brakes and after a while I managed to do most of my driving with just one foot. Another benefit is you will rarely have to replace the brake pads -- and no stupid black brake dust all over the wheels

There's a really nice video that shows how well regeneration works. Basically they did a 1/4 mile full throttle acceleration run and then let go of the accelerator pedal and regeneration kicked in right away and started to slow the car down. By the time the car slowed down completely regenerative braking has added back to the battery pack about half the power that was used to accelerate the car to over 100 mph. Shows how efficient the system is. In a gasoline car all that energy would have been wasted by turning it to heat when you apply the brakes.

Pay attention to the gauge to the right of the speed display. When it is orange and going up you are using power. When it is green and going down, you are putting power back.


The more I learn about electric power the more disappointed I get that Mercedes has yet to produce a premium mass market electric car. The technology to do that is here. Now.

Solar on the roof is really not that practical though it looks good/futuristic and may seem like a good idea. The surface area is so small that its power generation capability is miniscule when considering the ~85Kwh battery capacity of the model S. Whatever power you add to the battery pack will be marginal and even that only when the car is getting plenty of sunlight.

Several car models have offered solar panels on the roof before but most of them used that power barely to just power a basic ventilation system in the car to keep the cabin cool.

Jason B

Cool. Keep in mind that Daimler has provided and designed the batteries that are in the Tesla (see link I posted earlier in this thread), and from the amount of money they invested in Tesla, I know we will see more cool things from Mercedes, but only time will tell if it will hit the S class.

Mike5215

This is the only part of your position I don't understand. Why waste time complaining that Mercedes (or anyone else for that matter) hasn't built you a premium electric car when the Tesla S is available for sale. Now.

What is it about the Tesla that's preventing you from pulling the trigger?

WEBSRFR

That's a fair question and I guess you didn't read the bit about me waiting for AWD. It is not yet available and that's the only thing keeping me from buying one. AWD is expected to be available next year.

Most of what I have posted are responses to questions and concerns raised by others. And yes, I am disappointed I have to look to another manufacturer to buy a premium EV.

As for the Tesla interior, materials wise I agree it is barely in the same league as my E class. As for useability and functionality (navigation/media/communication/software UI) it is a generation above anything offered by Mercedes. And we can agree to disagree on that point.

Oh and I'm quite familiar with the Tesla ordering process. Thanks for letting me know how easy it is to buy one

Mike5215

Oh, the MB infotainment system itself is terrible. Our Audis have much nicer and more intuitive systems than the S Class. My wife's new Q7 has Google integrated maps and onboard WiFi. My issue with the Tesla's is only cosmetic. It's just jarring to see that huge flat screen in the center stack like that. Not a deal breaker but it could use more refinement. Also a lot of plastic on the doors, seat backs, etc. I know you can opt for more leather trim on that stuff but the car is so pricey as it is.

Terminator2029

Tesla vs W222 S550 comparison arrived very timely:

K-A

A expected, it's the Model S interior that costs it while the S interior earns it its most points, while the Model S exterior easily outpaces that of the S when it comes to lust and "sex appeal", even in that putrid red. Model S of course a sportier drive, S more cloud-like luxury.

Mike5215

Exactly (almost word for word) my take on the Tesla, especially the interior. If I could I'd have one of each those would be the two I'd have, but if I had to live with one it would be the 222. Thanks for posting!

WEBSRFR

@Terminator2029: Thanks for sharing that great review/comparison! I think it was a fair and reasonable comparison and can't fault anything they said and actually agree to a great extent with the points being made. Basically what they said is that if the interior and absolute luxury is your priority, get the S class. That's absolutely sound reasoning. If technology and simplistic design with modern luxury wrapped in an electric drive-train (with all the benefits and drawbacks that come with it) is what you want, then get the Model S.

The experience with the torque he described with the Model S is exactly what sold me on the Model S. After experiencing maximum torque from 0-100 with no transmission to get in the way, I never wanted to buy another gasoline powered car even if that car lacked some of the S class luxury. For someone else, I can understand how the S550 makes more sense with all the coddling and refinement it offers.

One thing that really struck me when watching the review is how we are at a point where a newbie car maker out of nowhere from California managed to deliver 90% of what the Mercedes S class delivers with just the Version 1.0 of their sedan and already how competitive it is with the flagship model of perhaps the world's best car-maker, Mercedes.

As an engineer it is staggering everything Tesla got right to reach that point. Just think about all the complexities involved in building a car from scratch and making it a success. Just imagine just the effort in putting together the manufacturing capacity to scale the projected 50,000 units a year they plan to ship shortly. They probably spent 90% of their effort with the structure, battery technology, software, electronics, charging, and everything that makes the car work. Tesla reached this point from starting at nothing.

Mercedes on the other hand had refined this design over 50+ years and 6+ generations of production and it shows with the level of refinement and craftsmanship. And this is really the strength of the S class, as suggested by @Mike5215. I get it Just different priorities for different people...

After getting the rest of the car right, Tesla can now start focusing on the interior luxury elements to comfort and coddle the occupants of the car but they had to get the rest of the car right before that point.

Germancar1

I wouldn't agree with that about the Tesla offering 90% of what the S-Class offers. Outside of the powertrain the car is lacking IMO, especially for the price. Nor has the Tesla proven itself over time either. The jury is still out on them getting the rest of the car right. Time will tell just like they had add more shielding under the car because of something they overlooked. More will come with time, it is still in the new/toy phase right now. That said it is also clear they used some Mercedes parts in the interior.

M

Quadcammer

so you own a tesla right? If not, why not? You talk about it like its the second coming, so why don't you buy one?

WEBSRFR

If you are going to take part in a discussion, at least have the courtesy to read what was discussed a few posts prior to your post on the same page.

Read a few posts prior to your post and you'll find the answer.

Quadcammer

ok, thats it, i can't take it anymore.

on ignore you go.

MDMercedesGuy

You might also have the courtesy to take this over to teslamotorsclub.com, rather than mbworld.org. After all, this isn't a Tesla forum and the constant parading of it in a thread where it is completely off topic got old days ago.

WEBSRFR

When I engage in a discussion with someone I extend them the courtesy of reading what they have just communicated. Apparently that's not a requisite for discussion. The parading you are talking about is the video that someone posted comparing and contrasting the S Class to a Model S and declared the S550 the winner? Or was it the subsequent discussions about that video where I agreed with the contents of the video and told Mike I understand where he's coming from?

Yes, I do frequent the Tesla forum as well and the topic of the S550 and other vehicles does come up from time to time but there is never this aversion that you should not discuss how one car compares to another. The 8 years I've been on this forum people have always talked about, compared, and contrasted other vehicles when the topic came up with forum members sharing information, and giving reasons for their opinions as they are doing now.

This whole discussion started when someone claimed they could not imagine why anyone would buy a Model S and I gave my reasons. Would you rather that the forum be an echo chamber and just be devoted to everyone agreeing completely that anything made by Mercedes is the finest there is and no one having the opinion to express any thoughts to the contrary suggesting why they may prefer something else?

I am curious, have you test driven the S63? I wonder if it is available for test drives at Euromotorcars. My car is due to service so maybe I'll take one out for a test drive while I'm there. I hope things are going well in Rockville/"North Bethesda"

Mike5215

It's off topic but it's been a respectful and balanced discussion. If I'm reading between the lines correctly I'd say this gentleman's brief spin behind the wheel of the Tesla with its effortless, silent 3.9 second 0-60 pull is really what this all boils down to. Once that kind of thing gets under your skin it's hard to forget, and it's really hard to enjoy your current car. It's like banging a super hot stripper and then having to go back to having sex with your wife.

I can be cool and detached because I've never driven one, but I'm afraid if I did I'd also have a raging case of Tesla Fever.

I think he's headed toward a Tesla S and I think he'll absolutely love it, warts and all. It's rare to find a car you really love. I like my S Class a lot, but if I walked outside and saw it crushed by a tree my first thought would be "I hope I didn't leave my phone in there."

K-A

The only disrespect in this thread (if there even has been any) would be from MB fanboys who as usual lash out at anything that doesn't worship at the Mercedes alter.

It's an informative discussion, respectful, etc. No reason to get in a tizzy over. It's a far better thread than several posts of "OMG THAT'S SO BADASS" which is what it would've been had it not gone into this discussion.

Besides, Daimler is a shareholder in Tesla, and they share some parts, so Tesla is always a somewhat relevant topic here.

K-A

This is what it comes down to. After driving the BMW i3, then the Model S (and I only drove the 60kw!) there's no looking back. I feel like EV's even in such an early stage have already largely surpassed ICE cars, range and convenience of charge being the only setbacks, as well as obvious price premium on the drivetrain itself. In fact, I feel like when I smell that gas pollution in the air, or pump gas in my car, breathing in those "lovely" fumes, I'm like a page in a not-so-distant history book where people will laugh about how "ancient" I am.

Funny thing is, as we have things like "auto start/stop" these days and engines keep getting so quiet that the best compliment toward them is "It sounds like an Electric Car!" or that the torque curve on an ICE motor is so good that it "Feels like an Electric Car!" it already tells you that ICE's are becoming compromises, very quickly. If my engine is gonna keep shutting off and shutting on during my commutes, then you know what, it's obvious that it's a DATED CONCEPT, and it's time to move forward, which is motors that don't ever need to be "off or on", they're just constant (as long as they have a charge).

And on your last line. I always say a similar thing if I'm at least toward the end of a lease on a car.

Wolfman

I think most here like to see more EV's coming. But at this point the Tesla is a good option for some but neither the future, better than an ICE nor a fit for many. It is just another great choice.

I look forward to more choices in the future... Who knows maybe someday I can buy a large scale 3D printer and then just print my car