Proves you don't understand or know much. Mercedes has been their partner for a while yet you think MF fell behind when common sense should tell you that they obviously aren't trying to make an all electric S-Class. You're just trolling now. What shade did the MBUSA CEO throw Tesla? Dying to know.

M

 

Go back and read what Steve Cannon said about Tesla. It was the truest sign of a threatened old guard denying what's right in front of them (the future). I posted it. The comments in said article had people criticizing him for confirming the stereotype that M-B is "old school", etc.

Believe me, I know more about Tesla's business and "partners" than you do. M-B is a stakeholder, and the fact that they STILL are clinging to the dinosaur age whilst pushing Hybrid cars that are the SLOWEST SELLING cars in the entire automotive market, shows how poorly M-B is being managed (as if falling behind BMW and Audi in worldwide market share when they have a much bigger/more diluted lineup of cars wasn't enough).

 

And a 6 Series is stiffer than an S Class. It's a fact, not made up fluff like your claim about the S Class. Owning a 6 Series doesn't change that.

And again, the first batches of W222's selling a lot mean nothing, an S Class could look like anything and sell. Give it a few+ years when the C Class looks identical to it on the roads, and when some of the design aspects along with the somewhat un-eventful design have time to age, and we'll know how well the design has been regarded.

I've seen lots of comments from people who find it has a lacking presence on the roads, myself sometimes being one of them (though sometimes I love it). The video of the guy who tested it against the Tesla commented on how the S doesn't really hold such a presence or get the "attention" fitted to its price tag when he was driving it when compared to the Tesla (again, when the W205 comes out, that'll only further that effect) which he believed looked more-so the part of an expensive car and garnered far more attention (whether you want the attention is another thing, but it's clearly considered a "sexier" car by most people). Then some people think the W222 is the second coming. Point being, there are differing opinions.

 

Why don't you just tell me what he said? No one is denying that Tesla is part of the future, but if you think we're all going to be driving electric cars in the next few years you're mistaken.

See again, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just a clueless hater. Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes all have the same problem selling high end hybrids. NO BRAND is able to sell them at the middle or top end, but true to troll form you single out Mercedes.

You're too limited in facts to even grasp the facts that Mercedes is making massive gains in sales right with Audi and BMW. IN fact they are closing the sales gap every month.

Why do you post so much misinformation? Just trolling.


Just to prove how clueless you are and how much you hate Mercedes (while giving the rest of the luxury car brands a pass) I looked up the hybrid numbers for Hybrid sales in May 2014:


Mercedes E400H 16
BMW ActiveHybrid 3 (335ih) 13
BMW ActiveHybrid 5 (535ih) 12
Infiniti M Hybrid 12
Lexus GS 450h 9
Mercedes ML450H 7
BMW 7-Series ActiveHybrid 5
Lexus LS 600h 5

http://www.hybridcars.com/may-2014-dashboard/

LOOK AT THE NUMBERS! NONE of them sell. IT isn't just a Mercedes-Benz problem but you're too lost to see it.

BMW and Lexus can't give away hybrids either at the middle and upper segments.


M

 

NO IT ISN'T. PROVE IT. I have experience with one of the cars on a daily basis and the other I've been in a couple of times now. What you got? Some numbers on a piece of paper. A 6-SERIES COUPE IS NOT STIFFER THAN A S-CLASS SEDAN.

All your opinion. Hasn't happened before. First batches? The car has been on sale nearly a year now.


You mean the people who aren't owners and buyers? Too bad nothing they say means squat because the people who own it just voted it the most satisfying car in America.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ne...ica-82601.html

So much for that.


See here is your problem, you don't have anything to say. Same irrelevant comments as always. You're a troll man. Nothing you've said here has any basis in reality. NOTHING. You're all washed up. People's opinions on a car they can't afford to buy don't mean squat.

The S-Class is the best luxury sedan on the market for the working rich. Period. Nothing you can say proves otherwise and the market and press and owners have spoken loudly.

M

 

I was in Sioux City, IA for a convention this past weekend. When I parked the car next to the main entrance of the hotel, there were all kinds of onlookers who were in awe of this car. Several folks said this was the best car they have ever seen inside and out. When I explained some of the technology on this car, they were in disbelief. They thought I was kidding them, but it gradually sank in that I was telling them facts. I was obviously a happy camper to hear all the accolades.

 

Who is this K-A person? This is an MB Forum and not a BMW Forum. I enjoy both MBs and BMWs.


I am guessing K-A does not have a legal background since his arguments would not do well.


Isn't this thread about the S63?

 

Did you offer anyone test drives?

 

People don't believe me when i tell them it can drive itself for periods of time...they think I am utilizing hyperbole.

Love this car!

 

No, but I'm sure they were hoping I would offer to do so. There were too many of them. However, the friend that we took with us (my wife let him sit on the from passenger seat) on the trip could not believe what he was witnessing. In addition to being amazed by the technology, he said the seat was as comfortable as his plush sofa at home. He did not at all get tired and he is 87 years old.

 

Repost of my post:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahel...rtner=yahootix

Here are just some of the first comments that show up:

Ravindra Gade:
He can’t be serious! Mercedes’ answer to Tesla is car that runs 20 miles on electric power! There are already a dozen cars are available that do this including golf carts. Why are all these auto execs behaving like ostriches!!!

Rahul Sonnad:
Really? Limited Potential for the rest of Steve Cannon’s life? Unless there is some illness he’s not disclosing, that just doesn’t make sense. Pure Electric has gone from nothing to outselling Mercedes in the luxury segment in 2 years. Is Mercedes going to beat Tesla on pure electric. I doubt it. What’s the obstacle to scaling things out on the charging front or on the Service front? What examples of past Tesla failure let him project this out?

This sounds like a desperate marketing pitch from a marketing guy turned CEO that despite the fact that Mercedes owns a big chunk of Tesla and there are so many reasons why all electric is better, is just defensively hiding behind spin instead if truly innovating on top of the battery platform that could make mercedes really environmentally friendly and a much better car and car company.

I would have hoped for better from Mercedes USA’s CEO.

Tatnuck Tatnuck
As a former Mercedes owner, I understand why Steve Cannon thinks it is necessary for all car manufacturers to have huge service networks. Tesla is a game-changer in many ways, not needing a lot of maintenance is one of them. Mercedes and GM remind me of Motorola and Ericsson and their cell phones just before the iPhone.

Sam Miller
Mercedes is about to discover that EVs require precious little maintenance, so that dealer network isn’t nearly so necessary as it would be for those pretentious suckers who own, you know, a Mercedes.

…And EVs will mainly be “re-fueled” at home, for around $5/tank. (Yup, electricity is a heck of a lot cheaper than gas, per mile driven)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The 6 Series is FACTUALLY stiffer than an S Class, realize it's a fact, not nostalgic made-up hyperbole like your claim based on absolutely nothing. I'M the one with numbers to back me up. You haven't actually had any new Mercedes' to realize that many of them don't hold up in terms of solidity like old ones do.



6 Series is an ASTOUNDING 43,000 nm/deg of torsional rigidity. Like better than many Supercars. The W222 is 40,500.

Some links with torsional rigidity figures, and good information to study up on, so you know how this stuff works.

http://youwheel.com/2014/04/25/car-b...ehensive-list/
http://www.alueurope.eu/wp-content/u...structures.pdf

You can wax poetic in Mercedes fandom all you want, but you have one of the stiffest cars in existence, factually stiffer than any Mercedes ever currently produced.

The only reason you'd *THINK* the W222 is "more solid" is because it's floaty and wallow-y (without ABC) like a boat, thus the suspension is designed to absorb more impacts (except for the 20" RFT's which apparently ride like hell over rough surfaces). The 6 Series is much stiffer, literally, thus more impact harshness is designed to get transferred to the chassis. The 6 is designed to be stiff enough to handle a more connected drive than an S, to be luxurious still, and to be able to throw all that weight around in turns. The S isn't nearly as dynamic, thus less is demanded by the chassis, so it can get away with less rigidity whilst feeling as solid. Seriously, just study up on chassis rigidity and it'll all make sense.

Re: Looks. We can go all day about that and it's all subjective. I can point out flaws in the design, you can say it's a masterpiece, etc. etc. Based on my many observations, test reviews, comparisons, and peoples sentiments in real life and outside of Mercedes boards, people seem to find the W222's exterior rather "blah" while the interior gets pegged as the show stealer.

 

Yet what does any of that prove? It does show me that you're one of those who reads something like that and thinks that the world has changed and all of sudden things are different. You live in lala land. What does any of this have to do with Mercedes selling as many S-Classes as they can make and Tesla bleeding money every quarter. Let me know when of what you've stated matters to anyone else besides you.






------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





NO it isn't. Like I said, all you have is numbers on a piece of paper. I have been in both cars and the S-Class is vault strong.

Here is where you argument falls to dust. You can't tell me what I've experienced in real life NOR IS THE S-CLASS SOME TYPE OF LOSE VEHICLE.

The S is as solid as a bridge along with the S-Class only to the clueless number cruncher does a number mean more on paper. Its like arguing about 2 tenth of a sec in difference in 0-60 times. It is for armchair quarterbacks. Nor does that numbers how the car will "hold up", it tells what the stiffness is of the platform when it the car is being designed, not what it will be like 5 years from now. Do you not know this?



NO one said it wasn't, but you're trying to say this as the S-Class is some type of loose vehicle and I'm telling you it isn't. Period. You're a number chaser who doesn't know what he's talking about beyond the numbers.



Never said I didn't. My point is that the S-Class is not some type of loose feeling car like you're trying to imply.


Nope. Wrong again. It is stiff because of the way it is built. Open the door, close them, sit in the car, very rigid. Has nothing to do with the ride, but that does back it up also.

You don't even know what you're talking about. The 6-Series translates more impact harshness to the cabin because of its tires and suspension design. My god man you're clueless. A more rigid chassis doesn't automatically product more impact harshness! Too much reading on your part again with NO understanding. A stiff suspension and less tire transfer the harshness, not just a stiff chassis. OMG. You don't know what you're talking about.

All BS because the car is selling hand over fist and it was just voted the most satisfying car in America.

Try again, you haven't a clue here.

M

 

Have you lost this argument so bad that you're just babbling incoherencies?

A stiffer suspension that's meant to HANDLE better will force more harshness onto the chassis. Thus the 6 Series NEEDS a stiffer chassis to be able to handle all that IN ORDER TO not "loosen up". The S Class is EXCLUSIVELY a wafty vehicle, so it doesn't need as much rigidity to feel as comparatively solid. The 6 Series needs to do a lot at once, and in order to do it well, it needs to have as super stiff chassis. BMW nailed that aspect.

Oh, you sat in a W222 with 0 miles and think it's stiffer than a 6 Series? Lol. How factual. Like I said, the 6 is a MUCH sportier car, thus you're confusing a more connected drive with "less solid". The 6 Series chassis is stiffer, as a FACT. That "piece of paper" as you put it isn't a piece of paper, it's a chassis, it's a technical number that's the product of the materials and design of said chassis. I never said the W222 isn't vault stiff, it is, but the 6 is even more "vault stiff".

As for Tesla. Fact is, the W222 JUST came out, of course they're selling all that they can make. Anything less would be a disaster. The "old" Model S by a STARTUP company is still outselling it! I'd say the future is on the side of Tesla.

 

You don't even know what a basic suspension does for a car obviously. That is what I just said, a stiffer suspension is for better handling and roadholding, it has nothing to do with how stiff the chassis is. Every car needs a stiff chassis for the suspension to work. What the hell does the AMG version of the S-Class have a wet noodle for its chassis? The AMG V8 and V12 models are not just for wafting. Every car needs a stiff chassis for the suspension to do what it is designed to do, it doesn't matter if it is a performance car or not. Basis 101. Which you don't know. BMW hasn't nailed anything when the whole car sounds like it is about come apart when you encounter a sharp bump as my own car does. Again, clueless. A super stiff chassis and suspension aren't always tied together nor does one depend on the other. ALL cars need a stiff chassis, but not a stiff suspension.

The AMG cars have to have stiff CHASSIS to be able to deal with all the torque that those engines generate, otherwise they'd be twisting and bending. Do you think the S550 uses a different chassis or is somehow cheapened out vs the AMG versions of the SAME CAR?



Yep and rode in it. Solid as anything on the road. Tell me where the S-Class is lacking at BESIDES ON A PIECE OF PAPER. I'll be waiting. You don't know anything beyond what you've read. Period. Now you're comparing vault stiff to even more vault stiff? Idiotic. Means you're washed up if the S-Class is vault stiff already, proves you have no point beyond numbers on paper.



Sounds like a backpedaling excuse to me. NO THE TESLA IS NOT OUTSELLING IT. We have been over the numbers. WRONG.

Serious question, do you just choose to troll and make false statements or are you just not capable of reading a sales chart? Do you need the numbers again?


M

 

Ah maybe you should have charged them each for a ride to experience how the car of the future drives itself The most impressive video I have seen of this in action is how the system actually slowed down and merged with traffic at a circle.

The S class seats are some of the best seats in the world. I love how the new design offers support around the back of your neck. Mercedes should sell those seats to other manufacturers

 

Actually the year is not yet over to make a definite statement on this one way or the other. Tesla has more demand than its production capability so with it's newly opened international markets, especially China, they are supply constrained. They generally ship more models to overseas destinations the first 2 quarters of the year and then switch to more American deliveries for the last 2 quarters.

Even as the deliveries are now, some estimates have Tesla Model S sales greater than S class sales though definite numbers are yet not available so let's wait until the end of the year and see how and where the chips may fall.

One thing is for sure and that is that a certain segment of S class shoppers are cross shopping the Model S and some are opting for the Model S due to benefits of the all electric drivetrain. We'll know at the end of the year how that affects sales of both models as some customers decide to buy the best gasoline powered car on the road and others opt to buy the best electric car on the road.

 

Do you know the difference between saying something is "outselling" as opposed to "outsold", meaning one is current and the other is past? Like YTD vs all of 2014? All you have is estimates. Estimates are not facts. As of today, you know like YTD (outselling), the S isn't being outsold by the Tesla. Period. No estimate I've seen put the Tesla ahead in the U.S. market.

Oh man please with the S shoppers and what they're doing, you don't know what they're doing. YOU aren't the only S-Class pretender out there.

Never seen a more ridiculous argument with NO FACTS attached to it. Supply constrained? Sounds like a bunch of excuses now that you don't have any real sales numbers.

M

 

S Classes are aplenty on dealer lots.

EVERY Model S being produced has already been accounted for.

Yeah, a 3 year old Model S STILL has higher demand than a brand new S Class.

 

What does that mean? Do you not know the difference between shipped and sold either? Are you saying the S-Class isn't selling well? If not then your statement is pointless.

Too bad that higher Tesla demand hasn't resulted in more sales.

You're done. You're reaching now and not making any logical sense anymore. YTD the S-Class has OUTSOLD the Tesla Model S. Again, do you need the numbers?



M

 

Lol. You're really desperate. Now you're trying to argue that every chassis is the same when you have proof that the 6 Series is FACTUALLY stiffer than your precious S Class (must be tough to digest).

Tesla can't produce enough Model S' to meet demand. People are waiting months just to get theirs. Tesla doesn't have near the supply capacity as Mercedes, if they did, they'd outsell the S Class even more massively with the Model S.

People talk about the Model S everywhere, it's literally the hottest car out there.

 

Can you not read? I said every car NEEDS a stiff chassis, not that every car HAD one. Honestly or do you not understand what is being said here?

Tesla still can't outsell the S-Class and if you think Mercedes' isn't running full tilt to built S-Classes I can point you in the right direction to read about it.

Now you're talking about what people talk about the most? LAME argument dude. Little kids talk about cars too, means squat.

You're so predictable it is funny. You saw another poster use the "supply constrained" excuse now you're using it to say WHAT COULD HAPPEN.

Have a seat man you're done. All washed up.


BTW: Do you not read here about the owners waiting months for the S-Classes? Seriously, you're reaching and getting NOTHING. Both cars have customer waiting for months. Proves what??????

M

 

Lol wut? You're getting hard to understand at this point, and I don't think it's me.

S Classes are all over the country sitting on lots. It's a brand new car, this is likely the PEAK of its sales run. Model S has been accelerating sales for years, that is a monumental feat for an especially trendy(trend setting) car. The W222 in three years from now most likely will have seen sales simmer down (especially when you can get a C Class that looks identical to it, just scaled down).

If Tesla could produce Model S' at the pace that Mercedes does the S Class, Model S sales would be even more massive. Tesla literally can't build enough Model S', while again, there are tons of W222's sitting on lots, un-accounted for. You can't compare the scenario for the two, but what you can compare is sales numbers, where the Model S still looks more than formidable.

 

S-Class sitting on lots means what? Seriously, that is what every car dealer does, they order from the factory to stock their inventory. Yet you're trying to say that is a problem right? Wrong.

You're just reaching now. The S-Class is just hitting its stride as production was increased just a few months ago for the 2015 model year change over.

Fact is the S-Class is selling and it is selling better than anything else in the class. Fact.

You can keep repeating that dumb stuff over and over, it makes no difference to the facts here.

The model S is selling too, doesn't slight the S-Class one bit.

If shoulda, woulda, coulda, sounds like an excuse to me.

You're just being a troll dude.

Prove that there TONS of S-Classes sitting on lots. PROVE that the S-Class is having a sales problem. PROVE IT.

Unaccounted for? Every car dealer in America has cars sitting, that is what a car dealer does.

Tesla is a direct to customer sales operation. Meaning they don't build or ship one until a customer places an order vs a dealership who orders some cars for general stock. OMG are you really going to pretend you don't get these basics to make some stupid argument about sales? To compare the two sales models in that regard is just as silly as it is disingenuous.

M

 

Who the hell said the S Class is having sales problems?! What's with the quick jump to paranoid-schitzo extremes all the time with you?

Look up S Class sales inventory on auto trader, at dealers, etc. W222's are all over sitting on lots. Just because Tesla is a direct to customer operation doesn't mean they don't intend on having Model S inventory. The Tesla Store I went to said that they have had Model S' ready to buy before, but the demand is so fierce that they literally can't make enough to fill orders already.

I'll paint this as simply as possible. Right now you're speaking in terms of the past, I'm talking about signs that show where the future is headed. Tesla at the close of the market today is at a market cap of just over $28B, while Daimler's ENTIRE market cap (not just Mercedes) is just over $100B. Tesla went public just a couple years ago, Daimler is been around forever.

You must be smart enough to realize how the market is perceiving things will go in the future, and where they're putting their bets. Mercedes cars account for less than that $100B Daimler market cap, which means that Tesla having ONLY ONE CAR ON SALE (I don't count the Roadster as it is just a specialty that really doesn't sell much) holds a market cap pretty damn close (or close enough, all things considered) to that of the Mercedes-Benz portion of Daimlers market cap.

That speaks volumes.

 

Then what are you mentioning normal sales practices for then? If the S-Class isn't having a sales problem, then what are you talking about them sitting on lots for? Do you even know?

Tesla doesn't stock their store like a Mercedes dealer does. Do you not understand that?

Now because you're washed up and making no sense on the sales question, you talk about the future. Figures.

Anything can happen in the future and Daimler knows this which is why in part grabbed a piece of Tesla. What that has to do with you talking about current sales is beyond me.

You must be smart enough to realize the whole world isn't going to switch over to electric cars overnight.

Market cap, impressive, losing money nearly every quarter much less so. Again you're not dealing in what really matters. Last I read that hadn't even turned a profit yet?

That speaks an even bigger volume.

M