Lucas

This time you are wrong Vadim, the clutch is only active at idle, this is because the play in the compressors gear box will make so much noise at idle, so a diesel will sound like the Jackson five comparred to it.

The clutch and bypass are to different things, just imagine running at 3.000 rpm at light throttle with the clutch active and then give full throttle, the compressor will take depending on type
25-50 hp drive loss, you would fall forward in the car and brake the nose at the steering wheel, and then the power will come.

MB tried to make compressors to V6 but gave up, because they couldn't control the above, they turned over the project to AMG
and a few years later the C 32 was born.

Vadim @ evosport

Lucas, my friend, I am sorry, but it is you are who is wrong. You obviously do not own C32. At idle clutch is disengaged. There is no need for Kompressor at idle. You can actually put your hand on the other side of the kompressor and spin it in opposite direction.

Clutch engagement and disengagement can be monitored with SnapOn scanner. It shows that under less than 20% load and lower than 2900 rpm the clutch is disengaged. When either load exceeds 20% or engine speed 2900 rpm, clutch engages. I have monitored this many, many times.

Also when transmission shifts the clutch disengages to prevent transmission damage. So in a way it acts like a bypass valve. As far MB engineers not being able to figure out how to make clutch work. C'mon....... give them more credit than that.

nong

Is this correct ???

There is an extra benefit with the Clutch system:

At high RPM's, the ECU could disengage the Kompressor entirely, reducing it to a mere idler. This solves the famous parasitic lost that has plagued the supercharger systems for a long time.

With the Bypass valve system, the Kompressor is still spinning eventhough the bypass valve is opened and this induces parasitic drag especially with the Lysholm type that generates internal compression.

Thanks

Lucas

Vadim, no I am not so lucky to drive a C 32

I have to live with the SL 55, and your hobby scanner from snapon is ofcause better than the OE MB DAS I have, with a service and monthly update from DC Scandinavia.
I can get things out of that machine, only you could dream of.

Listen to yourself, it's like EVO sports is God walking the earth, you have an answer to all questions, the clutch and the bypass
is not the same and I won't waiste my breath to discouss with you, but it seems to me you have even no idea how the KLEEMANN system works, which you all praise so high.
Did you all learn supercharging from Corky Bell ????.

Vadim @ evosport

Nong: On C32, at high RPMs, kompressor is constantly engaged, mainly to keep clutch from blowing up when it engages at that rpm. On KLEEMANN system, bypass valve opens when there is vacuum in the intake manifold, like during low load, i.e. cruising.

MB used bypass valve on C230s and now went to clutch on AMG models.

Lucas: Well my friend, you just showed me your maturity. Instead of countering with facts, you find it easier to attack me personally. Hey, this is what Democrats do here when they can not debate Republicans on issues. Guess what? They lost.

As far my teacher, there are many. Main one is EXPERIENCE. If you want a name - Jim Bell of Kenne Bell.

E55 KEV

What does Politics have to do with superchargers? Don't brag of the party being run by an IDIOT! Yeah the Republicians won but look at your stock portfolio. The whole country is being run by a guy who has been referred to as a idiot. Maybe the Canadians are correct calling "W" a dummy - because he is - the stuttering no vocabulary fool!

Driller

Just to be correct....he was called a 'moron' by the Communications Director of the PM.

Vadim @ evosport

PRECISELY! Thank You, KEV55 and Driller. As democrats you have just proven my statement.

You do not like Bush's politics, so what do you do, you call him an "IDIOT" and a "Moron". Why? - Because you have nothing substantial to offer against his politics.

This is exactly what Lucas did. Instead of offering facts to counter act my point with regard to kompressor clutches and bypass valves, he chose to personally attack me. Very immature.

otoupalik

Guys, keep it civil and on point please!

Lucas

Vadim, I am sure you guys at Evosport are good and honest, and if your precident is a moron, and somebody called him that, fine with me, it's a free world we live in.

You can call me what you want, and I am sorry if I am not so good to write in a different language, but you are still not right.

You compare to different supercharger set up's, which in a way not are compareable.

1.
MB 4 cyl. which have the throttle on the pressure side of the compressor, if there isn't a bypass in such a system, driving under full boost and then close throttle, there will be 3-4 bars pressure on top of the throttle.
The inlet side of the compressor is wide open, and the compressor will move the air no matter if it will be used or not, so the air is just pumped back to the air box.

Your answer to Nong is wrong :

MB used "bypass and clucth" not only bypass, from introduction of 111 kompressor engines in 1996 untill may 2000, where the W 203 was introduced with the new type 111 engine, here the clutch was gone, but the bypass remained.

2.

AMG 32 / 55, have the inlet throttle on the inlet side of the compressor, like KLEEMANN.
Let's not argue when the clutch disengage, so we bring up the rpm to 4200. Here an AMG SL 55 run 200 km/h, still crusin at light throttle, can you agree that the clutch will be engaged ????

Same senario with a KLEEMANN car, can you agree that it will have a full open bypass at the same speed ??????

I hope you will say YES to the above ????

Then tell me again that the clutch and by pass have the same function.

I try to offer facts, and your, Ben's and Brad's ( Evosport ) you have your opinions and way to do things, but they don't have to suit all of us, and I know it's difficult for a guy with your experience to admit that somebody learned you something or proved you wrong.
I learn things from reading your posts, new ways to look at things, new ways to explain things. ( Keep up the good work )

Give a little credit to a guy, who can see in 2 sec. that you have made an installation error on the latest C 240 you installed with KLEEMANN V 6 compressor.
You took the vacuum to the MAP sensor from the pressure side at the manifold ( seen on picture last week here on MBW ), let me guess, you had to change that before the car could run.

P.S.

Before you promise everybody that your headers will fit all MB 113 V8, do me a favour and do your home work.

You have to make 4-6 different different header sets, if you want to cover 163,208,209,210,211,215,220 and 230 with 113 V8.
If you don't have the DAS, look it up at you local MB shop.
The same goes by the way for V6.

Lucas

What up Vadim, did you die here ????:p

Vadim @ evosport

Nope, still alive and kicking.

To answer you on your points:

1. Yes, earlier cars had both. New C32 only has a clutch.

2. You are correct. The way I look at the clutch and bypass valve as a way to keep Kompressor under control.

Thanks for the kind words.

The picture had to be taken by certain time, this why the hook up ended up wrong. The technician was under the gun to get it done. Yes, now it is hooked up correctly.

P.S. You are right again. Our local dealer parts guys was lazy to confirm that there are different parst numbers for different cars.


P.S.S. This is the kind of conversation I enjoy.

Lucas

Hi Vadim

PSS; me too.

New info :

AMG just changed their set up this month on the 55, now they have an electrical bypass, they used a inlet throttle from a 111 engine.

Vadim @ evosport

Lucas: Electrical bypass? Please elaborate. This sounds very, very interesting.

Lucas

Vadim

You know at the cold side of the intercooler, there is like a Y pipe
to L + R cyl. bank.
On top of the Y there is now a bypass throttle running directly up into the inlet house.
The throttle bears a 111 number, it looks very much like a normal throttle from 4 cyl engine. It opens and close like on a KLEEMANN
just drive by wire.

A SL 55 from last month, have no bypass and larger inlet throttle, the new version have the exact same throttle as on a 430/500.

I heard a lot of stories in Germany the past six month, with production delay, 3 SL 55 at MB Düsseldorf with blown engines, I know personally 1 guy where MB/AMG had to give him his money
back from the car he owned less than 6 month, the fuel economy
was not even close to what they promised, cruseing at 100 mph
it runs 3 km pr. litter ( a KLEEMANN runs 7-8 ), they had to change and modify the whole fuel system ect. ect.

Any way they never tell the truth, but for sure they are under pressure at AMG, they have to change things and make those cars work, and bringing in a bypass was a step in the right direction, I have no I dear how these " stupid " German engeneers could take so long to figure that out.

nong

hello guys,

I'm totally still totally confused after reading the posts from both of you guys...

I think I know how thre bypass valve works....
but...
I'm confused with the clutch thing.

(1) Is the ogura clutch engaged at idel, yes/no ???
(2) Crusing at 3000rpm, light throttle, is the clutch engaged, yes/no??
(3) What is the advantage of clutch system over bypass valve ???

Thanks guys,

Lucas

In my oppinion the clutch is only there to remove noise at idle and
is engaged at idle.

Clutch and bypass is two very different things, just see the new AMG 55, they have clutch and bypass now, if clutch and bypass should be the same, why should AMG have both ???

I thing I convinced Vadim, so he might be of the same oppinion ???

Vadim @ evosport

Yes, Lucas you have. I think we had come to the conclusion that bypass valve is perhaps a better way to control kompressor under low load conditions.

Nong: Unless you are designing your own SC system, you are lickely to encounter a bypass valve of some sorts.

On C32 clutch is off at idle, on at 3000 rpm regardless of load, and as far as which one is better, IMHO bypass seems to work well on Kenne Bell (they use Autorotor Kompressors on Ford and Chevy kits) pretty well.


Which MB do you have?

nong

Lucas says Clutch is engaged at idle.

Vadim says Clutch is off at idle.

Guys, I'm still confused

Just in - W211 (E320) and wanting to Kompress it at some point

Regards

Lucas

I thing we mix up here, the compressor is not running at idle.

Lucas

Sorry I was a little quick before.

Compressor off at idle means clucth " disengaged " or "off".

I can understand Vadim says bypass " perhaps " is better that clutch. ( I am not done with you Vadim ).

Lets discuss this later, I have to go an buy a christmas tree with the wife and kids. ( Hope it will fit in my car )

Vadim @ evosport

Nong: On C32 the clutch is off at idle. I am not sure about earlier 4-cylinders.

Lucas: Good Luck with the tree. I was done with mine last weekend. Having E320 Station Wagon definitely helps;-)

Lucas

Nong : The earlier 4 cyl, the clutch are disengaged at idle, it's only purpose is to disengage at idle to reduce noise, the same goes for AMG 32 and 55 with compressor, if something goes very wrong with ignition or fueling, the clutch will disengage the compressor to protect the engine as well.

Bad designed compressor systems like Carlsson and Lorinser, do not have the clutch to disengage the compressor at low engine loads, it's there for another reason " SMOG TEST ".

The driving cycle at German TÜV, is quite simular to the C.A.R.B. you use in the US, the car is tested under low loads and only a little acceleration with a light foot.
Carlsson and Lorinser then sets their clutch to engage over the rpm. they use at the test center. The TÜV test center then see's a car with a compressor, and when they test it in the lab, the clutch makes sure the compressor never runs one single rpm.
Very smart, bring in a compressor car, but in a way not testing it,
and bingo they have an approval.

Vadim: The tree fitted perfectly in my wifes E 270 CDI Touring, I would never try and squeeze in a christmas tree in my S Class.

You are not convinced with the difference between clutch and bypass ????

Just thinging today when I picked up the tree, you should try and build in an inlet throttle from one of the old MB W124, 300 E, 103 6 cyl. engines. into your C 32. This throttle is flat and have a nice diameter.
Weld in a flange on the cold side of your intercooler and fit the throttle there, make an alloy ring and weld in the inlet house and use a rubber ring as a gasket ( then it will look exactly like the new 55 ) so when the intercooler is fittet to the compressor / inlet house the top of the throttle will fit into the ring welded in the inlet house.
Use a vacuum dashpot like on KLEEMANN to activate the bypass throttle and you will have the best bypass in the world on your C 32.
The result will be better economy, 20-40 degrees C colder compressor system in part loads, ect.ect. just the way AMG should have build it from the beginning, if those engineers had lights on at the top flat.

Can you picture it ????.

Do you ever get the feeling where you get afraid of your self ?????

It will take you a day or two to build it in, then lets talk about
clutch and bypass.

Vadim @ evosport

Lucas: Great info. Thanks.

Ever since we had the discussion on bypass valves, I have been thinking on adding one to C32. I am in a process of making a long tube intake manifold to add TQ to C32 engine. It will incorporate a bypass valve between air boxes and the manifold. I was thinking of removing clutch system from the kompressor, so even smaller pulley could be used for more boost. I will send you some pictures next week.

How do you think DME will respond?

Lucas

The Manifolds might work, but it's not there you will find the big gains compared to the time and cost.

To bypass between the manifolds and airboxes, is not the best idea I have heard.
When you bypass " outside " the compressor system, you will have a lot of noise, nobody wants that.
Build the bypass like I discriped " internally ", and you can be 100% sure of suscess.
It will look 100% like the new 55, only driven by vacuum.

If you take of the clutch, the DME ( is that the ECU ?? ) will flip.
On a 111 compressor engine I have used a 6 Ohm resistance, instead of the clutch, that car is still driving and has done that the last 3 years, but it's just to Ohm your clutch.

Depending on the boost you reach, it might lean out, lets take that when we comes to it.