KLEEMANN SC systems over priced? Look here.......
07-14-2005, 11:59 AM
#76
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2000 CLK 430
Need an update
Originally Posted by Vadim @ evosport
This is starting to become another name-calling thread.
Lets look at facts.
There are three systems on the market.
ESS, HPS and KLEEMANN. All use different superchargers (SC) to make power. The difference lies in SC efficiencies.
SC/Turbo efficiency: SC/Turbo efficiency is essentially the ratio of useful work produced by the SC/Turbo from the work required to drive the SC/turbo. An increase in temperature is of course a by product of compressing air and is unavoidable. A higher SC/turbo compressor efficiency value means lower charge air temperature. Naturally, lower charge air temperatures assists in improved engine durability with the potential to achieve even higher power and torque output. The efficiency is measured in percentages. Where 100% is an ideal number. The closer you are to this number the less heat SC/Turbo generates.
Lets look at each indiviual system:
ESS:
They use Vortech, centrifugal SC, no intercooler, no EPA/CARB certification.
It is basically half of a turbo mechanically attached to the crankshaft. The unit is fairly efficient around 70%. Personally, I have a lot of experience with it, as it is used extensively in FORD and CHEVY late-model aftermarket. The problem with a VORTECH, is that it builds boost with RPMs. So maximum boost is not reached until redline, leaving midrange and lowend - soft. Most customers who install VORTECH systems end up trying to make up for soft bottom end by increasing SC pulley ratio. Eventually end up with damaged engine as there is now too much boost on the top end, leaning car out.
HPS:
They use EATON M90 roots SC, no intercooler, EPA/CARB certified. This SC is not really a compressor, it a positive displacement SC. It simply grabs air with it's lobes and compresses it inside the intake manifold. Because of this, it's efficeincy is fairly low, in 50-60% range. In my personal experience, EATON, at low boost levels 4-6 psi can make decent power. Anything above will increase air charge temperature dramatically, resulting in detonation. Lack of intercooling is a big concern, since 91 octane gas that we currrently "enjoying" in CA is coming to all states within next several years. Also on bigger engines like 500 and 55 M90 is too small. It is only 1.5L in displacement, so to make equal to smaller engine's (430) boost it has to be turned faster, thus creating more engine damaging heat.
KLEEMANN:
They use Lysholm screw compressor, intercooled, EPA/CARB certified.
Compressor is sized to engine displacement from 1L for V6 models to 2.2L for 55 models. Lysholm has efficencies in the range of 70-80%. KLEEMANN also uses LAMINOVA intercooler cores that are very efficient (80-90%). What it means is that on their kits, air charge temperature is only around 20-30F higher than ambient at full boost. One of the first kits we installed was in the summer with outside hitting high90s, yet charge temperature never rose above 120F. Knock sensors were happy and DME was giving the car full timing advance. CLK55K made 420HP/420TQ at the wheels and ran like a proverbial "bat out if hell", with perfect driveability and throttle response.
If you add proven track record in Europe, very well engineered and integrated compressor/intercooler/water pump assembly and factory appearance, it is easy to see why we sell only KLEEMANN.
Lets look at facts.
There are three systems on the market.
ESS, HPS and KLEEMANN. All use different superchargers (SC) to make power. The difference lies in SC efficiencies.
SC/Turbo efficiency: SC/Turbo efficiency is essentially the ratio of useful work produced by the SC/Turbo from the work required to drive the SC/turbo. An increase in temperature is of course a by product of compressing air and is unavoidable. A higher SC/turbo compressor efficiency value means lower charge air temperature. Naturally, lower charge air temperatures assists in improved engine durability with the potential to achieve even higher power and torque output. The efficiency is measured in percentages. Where 100% is an ideal number. The closer you are to this number the less heat SC/Turbo generates.
Lets look at each indiviual system:
ESS:
They use Vortech, centrifugal SC, no intercooler, no EPA/CARB certification.
It is basically half of a turbo mechanically attached to the crankshaft. The unit is fairly efficient around 70%. Personally, I have a lot of experience with it, as it is used extensively in FORD and CHEVY late-model aftermarket. The problem with a VORTECH, is that it builds boost with RPMs. So maximum boost is not reached until redline, leaving midrange and lowend - soft. Most customers who install VORTECH systems end up trying to make up for soft bottom end by increasing SC pulley ratio. Eventually end up with damaged engine as there is now too much boost on the top end, leaning car out.
HPS:
They use EATON M90 roots SC, no intercooler, EPA/CARB certified. This SC is not really a compressor, it a positive displacement SC. It simply grabs air with it's lobes and compresses it inside the intake manifold. Because of this, it's efficeincy is fairly low, in 50-60% range. In my personal experience, EATON, at low boost levels 4-6 psi can make decent power. Anything above will increase air charge temperature dramatically, resulting in detonation. Lack of intercooling is a big concern, since 91 octane gas that we currrently "enjoying" in CA is coming to all states within next several years. Also on bigger engines like 500 and 55 M90 is too small. It is only 1.5L in displacement, so to make equal to smaller engine's (430) boost it has to be turned faster, thus creating more engine damaging heat.
KLEEMANN:
They use Lysholm screw compressor, intercooled, EPA/CARB certified.
Compressor is sized to engine displacement from 1L for V6 models to 2.2L for 55 models. Lysholm has efficencies in the range of 70-80%. KLEEMANN also uses LAMINOVA intercooler cores that are very efficient (80-90%). What it means is that on their kits, air charge temperature is only around 20-30F higher than ambient at full boost. One of the first kits we installed was in the summer with outside hitting high90s, yet charge temperature never rose above 120F. Knock sensors were happy and DME was giving the car full timing advance. CLK55K made 420HP/420TQ at the wheels and ran like a proverbial "bat out if hell", with perfect driveability and throttle response.
If you add proven track record in Europe, very well engineered and integrated compressor/intercooler/water pump assembly and factory appearance, it is easy to see why we sell only KLEEMANN.
Last edited by wnycec; 07-14-2005 at 12:04 PM.
07-15-2005, 02:43 PM
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'06 E55, '05 SLK55, a few others
Not much has changed except at HPS. Kleemann has their water pump problems fixed. HPS Gen II is now a MP-110 for exactly the reasons Vadim states. The 90 was too small for 5.5 liter motors, and marginal for 5.0's. The original non-intercooled system was fine on my E430, but obviously didn't make the power of the Gen II or the Kleemann setups. The weak link for HPS (and one of the big reasons they can keep costs down) is the lack of a good software solution. Both Renntech and Kleemann have custom mapped ECU's to support their systems. This is very expensive because very few can modify or "flash" a Benz ECU, and the people that can, charge accordingly (which is BS, it takes all of 5 mins.). HPS is using a piggy back "black box" that was fine on my 430, but still suffers slight driveability issues on my 55 running the Gen II. Nothing major, and their engineer, Bill Kavadeles, may end up getting me a custom ECU to finally make it "perfect" (so much for making a dime on the system they sold me!). This hasn't been necessary for any car that I know of so far, but I think I have the only 2002 E55 with the Gen II and variations in factory code might be the cause. Who knows? If they were to offer this for every car, their costs would go up by around $1,000.00 and so would their system, getting them ever closer to the costs that Kleemann must charge. If you think Kleemann is expensive, Renntech is completely out the window at around 30K!
07-15-2005, 03:47 PM
#78
..............i agree with you, but the difference in cost between Kleemann and Rentech may not be as much as you think. To get the 550HP that you are supposed to get from a Kleemann s/c, you need to add headers, ECU changes, boost kit to the Kleemann s/c etc. When you add everything up, you are about $5K less than the Renntech high boost s/c system. Your statement will be entirely correct in simply adding the Kleemann s/c gets you the advertised 550HP, but it doesn't.
Ted
Ted
:p How time flies.. 
07-16-2005, 03:48 AM
#82
Isn't the Renntech high boost s/c system over 30k
..........yes it is. But add up the cost of Kleemann s/c plus instal $15K, headers plus install $5k, ECU $1.8K, boost kit for the Kleemann s/c $1.5K, Kleemann exhaust $2.5K, Kleeemann camshafts plus instal $3K. This adds up to $32K. Rentech high boos s/c is $37K. The truth is that there is really no price difference. The Renntech low boost s/c delivers about the same HP as an unmodified Kleemann s/c alone and both cost about $15K.
Ted
..........yes it is. But add up the cost of Kleemann s/c plus instal $15K, headers plus install $5k, ECU $1.8K, boost kit for the Kleemann s/c $1.5K, Kleemann exhaust $2.5K, Kleeemann camshafts plus instal $3K. This adds up to $32K. Rentech high boos s/c is $37K. The truth is that there is really no price difference. The Renntech low boost s/c delivers about the same HP as an unmodified Kleemann s/c alone and both cost about $15K.
Ted
07-16-2005, 11:06 AM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin
Isn't the Renntech high boost s/c system over 30k
..........yes it is. But add up the cost of Kleemann s/c plus instal $15K, headers plus install $5k, ECU $1.8K, boost kit for the Kleemann s/c $1.5K, Kleemann exhaust $2.5K, Kleeemann camshafts plus instal $3K. This adds up to $32K. Rentech high boos s/c is $37K. The truth is that there is really no price difference. The Renntech low boost s/c delivers about the same HP as an unmodified Kleemann s/c alone and both cost about $15K.
Ted
..........yes it is. But add up the cost of Kleemann s/c plus instal $15K, headers plus install $5k, ECU $1.8K, boost kit for the Kleemann s/c $1.5K, Kleemann exhaust $2.5K, Kleeemann camshafts plus instal $3K. This adds up to $32K. Rentech high boos s/c is $37K. The truth is that there is really no price difference. The Renntech low boost s/c delivers about the same HP as an unmodified Kleemann s/c alone and both cost about $15K.
Ted
07-16-2005, 06:29 PM
#84
.........you are right. It is not $2500. it was going to end up costing me 2500, because someone wanted my AMG exhausts. I belive the Kleemann exhausts were $3500. This means in order to bring your car to 550HP, there is no difference in cost between Kleemann and Renntech.
Ted
Ted
07-16-2005, 11:59 PM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin
..............your car must be incredible. Kindly post i/4 mile timeslips if you have one.
Ted
Ted
07-17-2005, 07:27 AM
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2000 CLK 430
Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin
.........you are right. It is not $2500. it was going to end up costing me 2500, because someone wanted my AMG exhausts. I belive the Kleemann exhausts were $3500. This means in order to bring your car to 550HP, there is no difference in cost between Kleemann and Renntech.
Ted
Ted
07-18-2005, 05:15 PM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by wnycec
Could of swore I was quoted at less than a G for the kleeman exhaust... unless you guys are talkin about more than a muffler essentially
08-04-2005, 11:48 AM
#90
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I was quoted $7500 for a complete Kleeman exhaust for my 03 CLK55...
Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Yes. We are talking about the complete exhaust (muffler, piping, tips, etc) cat-back.
Which if freaking insane. It's a shame, as I believe the factory exhaust manifolds are pretty restrictive and I think that the CLK55 would benefit as well as any car can from a properly designed set of headers. I think that the rest of the exhaust, sans catalytic converters, are pretty free fowing, and all I really want are headers, but the Kleeman headers require their own downpipe which eliminates the primary cats, and at that point I might as well get the whole system.
Renntech sell headers for the C55, but curiously not for the CLK55, although I was under the impression that the C55 essentially has the front end of the CLK55. It ultimately doesn't matter as they want $4995 for their headers!! What's with these insane exhaust prices?!? I imagine installation's pretty expensive as well. I wish someone would step in with some reasonablly priced aftermarket options. I refuse to pay these outrageous prices...
Best regards,
Matt
08-04-2005, 04:13 PM
#91
Even with a good dealer? 
You must understand the reason why they charge so much however.
The first point is that the research and development that goes into making these products. Certainly someone with a 50,000$ car doesn't want a product that cannot stand the real world!
Second, these aren't mass produced. The reason headers for a Civic are a few hundred dollars is becaue the company can recoup their losses from a larger audience. How many guys with C55's and CLK55's will buy these headers? Certainly a lot less.
Third, folks are used to it. I remember reading somewhere that the cost in 2003 to manufactuer a SL500 was around 16,000$.
MSRP on that car I think is about 89,000$.
You must understand the reason why they charge so much however.
The first point is that the research and development that goes into making these products. Certainly someone with a 50,000$ car doesn't want a product that cannot stand the real world!
Second, these aren't mass produced. The reason headers for a Civic are a few hundred dollars is becaue the company can recoup their losses from a larger audience. How many guys with C55's and CLK55's will buy these headers? Certainly a lot less.
Third, folks are used to it.
I remember reading somewhere that the cost in 2003 to manufactuer a SL500 was around 16,000$.MSRP on that car I think is about 89,000$.
