Open Invite Tuner Shoot Out
03-24-2009, 09:58 AM
#51
Is there at least one owner of every ecu tune that needs to be included in the evaluation?
JCart seems to have purchased at least two of the available options. Are there other owners interested in this comparison that have purchased some of the other tune options?
JCart seems to have purchased at least two of the available options. Are there other owners interested in this comparison that have purchased some of the other tune options?
03-29-2009, 07:23 PM
#53
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Lotus Elise SLK55
Can't go wrong with Kleemann, Renntech, or Evosport (Powerchip). I would also trust anything from Brabus, Carlsson, and MKB.. although I'm not sure if they even offer C63 tunes. Go with a tuner who's been tuning AMG's for many years and has done hundreds of cars, there are plenty of choices. The only new small tuner I would trust is VRP and even they use Powerchip-based tunes; there is some accountability with them and you know they won't disappear overnight. There is just too much controversy surrounding MHP, not worth the risk for *maybe* a 20whp gain over the aforementioned tuners...
04-14-2009, 03:22 PM
#54
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2005 e55AMG
While I'm sure lots would love to have seen this-there are too many variables, and too few tables to modify in a tune.
Air = amount (cfm) an engine can pump into the cylinder.
Fuel = another quantity added to the cylinder/combustion chamber.
Spark = when, and how much are really the two variables.
That said, the leaner mix with more air and a more advanced spark WILL make more power up to the ragged edge when it detonates and loses power drastically. Better (higher octane) fuel will allow more timing advance and create more power.
How do address all these needs as a tuner? The smart move is to throttle back a bit and be conservative. Most of us would rather run at 90-95% of possible with 100% reliability than 100-110 of possible with 50% reliability.
Add a supercharger to the mix, with a mind of its own (clutch, bypass, etc..) and the number of variables on a heads up competition is ridiculous. Dyno or a track.
The way to decide on a tune-call the guys. See what they have to say and ask some good questions. If it seems like it's an out of the box tune they put on any and every car then you know it's safe. If they want a complete mod list, right down to the quality and octane of your fuel and the vehicles purpose, you're getting closer to that edge and will probably make more power.
As far as a dyno tune-take it for what it's worth. A few years back I watched a VERY highly regarded Mustang tuner setup a supercharged tune on their dyno. 8 hour day, tons of changes will a stand alone ecu. Goal was 500whp through an automatic. He stopped, frustrated at 490/550 adn said that was all she had in her...
When we got to the track the Lightning ran a series of 12.20s with good mph. Looking at the datalogs on the track, making adjustments where possible, the truck ran a best of 11.70 that night, with nothing more than a few real time tweaks in the software.
We're car guys, and we all want the fastest/best. Every one of the tuners out there has invested $$$$ in R&D and tuning equipment and has their own opinion as to what can and will be done...
Trying to do a run after run comparison, even on similar days won't prove much.
Air = amount (cfm) an engine can pump into the cylinder.
Fuel = another quantity added to the cylinder/combustion chamber.
Spark = when, and how much are really the two variables.
That said, the leaner mix with more air and a more advanced spark WILL make more power up to the ragged edge when it detonates and loses power drastically. Better (higher octane) fuel will allow more timing advance and create more power.
How do address all these needs as a tuner? The smart move is to throttle back a bit and be conservative. Most of us would rather run at 90-95% of possible with 100% reliability than 100-110 of possible with 50% reliability.
Add a supercharger to the mix, with a mind of its own (clutch, bypass, etc..) and the number of variables on a heads up competition is ridiculous. Dyno or a track.
The way to decide on a tune-call the guys. See what they have to say and ask some good questions. If it seems like it's an out of the box tune they put on any and every car then you know it's safe. If they want a complete mod list, right down to the quality and octane of your fuel and the vehicles purpose, you're getting closer to that edge and will probably make more power.
As far as a dyno tune-take it for what it's worth. A few years back I watched a VERY highly regarded Mustang tuner setup a supercharged tune on their dyno. 8 hour day, tons of changes will a stand alone ecu. Goal was 500whp through an automatic. He stopped, frustrated at 490/550 adn said that was all she had in her...
When we got to the track the Lightning ran a series of 12.20s with good mph. Looking at the datalogs on the track, making adjustments where possible, the truck ran a best of 11.70 that night, with nothing more than a few real time tweaks in the software.
We're car guys, and we all want the fastest/best. Every one of the tuners out there has invested $$$$ in R&D and tuning equipment and has their own opinion as to what can and will be done...
Trying to do a run after run comparison, even on similar days won't prove much.
04-20-2009, 08:04 AM
#55
Nice job TexasSteele. I've long been an advocate of working with a tuner to develop a relationship that is comfortable and can provide long term progressive results. We all learn as we go and I suspect all these tuners are no different. I believe the greatest satisfaction comes from participating in the results of their development and ultimately being comfortable that their approach to your car matches you desire for performance and risk.
I would like to add one point. Since the beginning of time, performance tuning has been centered on either getting the most out of the air that makes it through the engine or increasing the air that makes it through the engine. Modern engine controls seem to have added a wrinkle to the task.
Gone are the days where a fuel control will take some inputs like RPM, Throttle, Manifold Pressure, Inlet Temperature and the like and go to a look up table to pick and then "trim" a fuel pulse width. All the Bosch stuff I see (and some Japanese stuff as well) all use very complicated engine models to determine what the engine is doing. Sensors and processor speed has gone far enough that these controls are doing things like looking at misfires by watching crankshaft acceleration throughout a single rotation. The result of this advanced processing power is that engine power is now being limited by the fuel control and not just air through the motor and efficiency of using that air.
So, the good people at Bosch, Siemens and the like are now doing torque limiting to control their engines, improve reliability and decrease warrantee costs. Torque is limited to transmissions (997TT and BMW 335i come to mind right away) and power is limited based on engine oil and water temperature to name just a few restrictions. Determining where these limits are and exactly what they do is a difficult task. I identified over 500 maps in the RX8 without using any information about the firmware apart from a basic understanding of the map structure and a simple software routine to define the maps. I've seen factory map structures for things like the 997TT where over 2000 "maps" were imported on a given version of firmware. A lot of those were 1X1 maps or simply single element calibration values but a significant amount were sizable tables.
Lastly, most manufacturers are using the same firmware base across multiple models and using variant coding to tell the ecu where it is being used. MB is a prime example. All the 63s have moved to the same firmware and there are multiple versions of each map in all the calibration data sets. The variant code tells the ecu which map to use. A C63 can use the same ecu configuration as an E63 just with different variant coding.
I bring all this up as there are some opportunities for tuners to identify torque restrictions and such and get more performance from a car. This is where picking a tuner you are comfortable with is vital. Altering some of these limits can make your car a LOT MORE FUN to drive. However, they were put there by the manufacturer to protect the engine and insure reliability. Getting more power normally equals a reduction in service life. Talking through your tolerance for service versus performance with your tuner then trusting him to execute accordingly is valuable. Being part of his ongoing learning curve as he figures out different tweaks in the firmware as time goes by can be enjoyable. Just two more things to consider in MHO.
Bill
I would like to add one point. Since the beginning of time, performance tuning has been centered on either getting the most out of the air that makes it through the engine or increasing the air that makes it through the engine. Modern engine controls seem to have added a wrinkle to the task.
Gone are the days where a fuel control will take some inputs like RPM, Throttle, Manifold Pressure, Inlet Temperature and the like and go to a look up table to pick and then "trim" a fuel pulse width. All the Bosch stuff I see (and some Japanese stuff as well) all use very complicated engine models to determine what the engine is doing. Sensors and processor speed has gone far enough that these controls are doing things like looking at misfires by watching crankshaft acceleration throughout a single rotation. The result of this advanced processing power is that engine power is now being limited by the fuel control and not just air through the motor and efficiency of using that air.
So, the good people at Bosch, Siemens and the like are now doing torque limiting to control their engines, improve reliability and decrease warrantee costs. Torque is limited to transmissions (997TT and BMW 335i come to mind right away) and power is limited based on engine oil and water temperature to name just a few restrictions. Determining where these limits are and exactly what they do is a difficult task. I identified over 500 maps in the RX8 without using any information about the firmware apart from a basic understanding of the map structure and a simple software routine to define the maps. I've seen factory map structures for things like the 997TT where over 2000 "maps" were imported on a given version of firmware. A lot of those were 1X1 maps or simply single element calibration values but a significant amount were sizable tables.
Lastly, most manufacturers are using the same firmware base across multiple models and using variant coding to tell the ecu where it is being used. MB is a prime example. All the 63s have moved to the same firmware and there are multiple versions of each map in all the calibration data sets. The variant code tells the ecu which map to use. A C63 can use the same ecu configuration as an E63 just with different variant coding.
I bring all this up as there are some opportunities for tuners to identify torque restrictions and such and get more performance from a car. This is where picking a tuner you are comfortable with is vital. Altering some of these limits can make your car a LOT MORE FUN to drive. However, they were put there by the manufacturer to protect the engine and insure reliability. Getting more power normally equals a reduction in service life. Talking through your tolerance for service versus performance with your tuner then trusting him to execute accordingly is valuable. Being part of his ongoing learning curve as he figures out different tweaks in the firmware as time goes by can be enjoyable. Just two more things to consider in MHO.
Bill
