renncpe

(05-22-2002 until 08-22-2002)
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"Effective immediately, we ask that everyone please take the time to review the Terms Of Use policy for the forums. Once you have read it, please verify that your posts, signatures, etc. are in compliance with these policies. If there are any questions or concerns, please contact us immediately at forums@mbworld.org. Thank you for your attention in this matter.

MBworld.org Team "

I found this tagged to a post about a west coast gtg. What do you guys think of the changes? To us it means that we can no longer post information about Mercedes that have been modified by Renntech, pictures included because they have logos on them.

I don’t know how my posts have be perceived by other board members But I personally feel that I have never PIMPED my wears here, or posted information that was false or misleading. I personally feel that this forum is going to suffer from this type of censorship; I was under the impression that this board was public and its goals were to further enhancement of Mercedes Benz ownership? Am I missing the point?

Randy

dasMafia

wecome to hell, this can happen at places. people feel that a company's products are recieving free advertising and it grates on them.

I wouldn't worry about it. Talk to the admin if you need to to maybe reach a compromise or agreement to your usage.

if all else fails, you can always troll at www.bimmerforums.com , we'd love to have a few benz-philes thrown in the mix! (and you guys probably owe me some payback anyway)

tommy

Randy, I just read the "Terms of Use". First of all, the obvious part: this is a benign dictatorship here, not a free country, so they can do whatever the hell they want. Having said that, I don't think the terms were too confining.

Do you know exactly why they had a problem with your post? If I were to bet, I would guess that it was your sig? If so, then I agree with them about providing company logos or links in the sig; I'm OK with banning them. But, if they were referring to listing your mods in your sig, or posting a pic of something which had the name of the company on the product or the car (ie, your windshield banner), then I agree with you - that's too much censorship.

They didn't explain exactly what was wrong? That's a little surprising to me.

revstriker

I can understand that the owners of the board do not want people posting advertisements that are not authorized. Even though I don't think the advertisement problem has been bad, I understand the need for a rule against it. Exactly what constitues advertising is the question. The rules are not crystal clear on this, probably on purpose. If they DO apply to discriptions of mods causing people to have to modify their signature lines such as you have, then I would say that the rule is over reaching. However, a signature line that looks like a "banner ad" that is advertising a product or service (even non-car related), is probably over the edge.

I wonder why the aministrator chose to attach this "reminder" to a message that not everyone would read?? I do not live on the West Coast, and I'm not interested in Track Events, so I did not read the message until you pointed out the tag.

renncpe

I agree that there should be some rules. Repeated post by individuals that post across all forums about there products, even if they are a paid advertiser are tiring and the worst offender is one of the moderators. I’m located on the east coast evo sport the owners of the forum are on the west coast why would I really pose any kind of concern for them.

Should I post a disclaimer that reads please read only if your are out of Evo sports service area. I was sent a rather insulting e-mail about my sig file. I find it interesting that I was not sent an invitation to join the paid advertisers, or any rate information on being an advertiser. The point seemed to be stop posting info about Renntech.

Randy

AndrewK

Renncpe I dont see what they are hassling you about. Did you have something about Brumos (correct?) in your sig? I dont see that as being any different than me putting in my sig that I had mine installed at Butler Tire and that I was satisfied. As long as you dont have it there with a phone number and a name to ask for I dont think its a problem. Besides, its not like you are posting just to get 'Brumos' all over the forum.

Buellwinkle

Does that apply to Kleemann too?

Randy, thank you for all your informative posts and hope that you still participate. I consider Renntech to be one of the premier tuners for the Coupe since they offer way more than anyone else with the possible exception of Vaeth. While I have your attention. What's the deal on the Renntech intercooler for the coupe? They claim a large HP increase. Have you had a chance to see it, test it? Is it air to air like the factory intercooler? How much bigger is it than stock and does it show from the outside? Does it mount in the same spot as the factory one? Can you post a picture of it?

renncpe

I did include a phone number in the sig file b/c i sell Mercedes Benz from Brumos Mercedes.You are right though I did not post off topic or flood the forum just to get my name out there.

Randy

otoupalik

Randy,

Anyone is free to post pictures or details about RennTech cars EXCEPT those who are doing so to sell RennTech cars - such as yourself! You are more then free to post who's modifications are on your car, or any gains you have. If you are a RennTech customer and you love the company - post it. However, stating "Brumos RennTech" and the phone number where you can be reached to sell those parts is not allowed. If you cannot understand that this is a clear cut issue, please e-mail me.

When you post your signature stating Brumos RennTech it DOES impact the value to the PAYING sponsors.

The board welcomes input from all members. You have been contacted directly and you were asked to alter your signature, which you did in a very sarcastic fashion. The e-mail sent to you was not rude, and we would be more then happy to post that and your response here to let everyone see and judge for themselves.

The reality of the world is that things are not free. We fund this board and it costs a lot of money. We are able to offset that with some money from sponsors. However, when you post a RennTech or Brumos signature, it diminishes the value to those that are not attempting to get free advertisement! I am sure that Brumos or RennTech can afford the small amount we ask for sponsorship and advertising.

MBworld would love to have RennTech or Brumos as a sponsor. We invite many competitors to sponsor the board. This is an economic issue, nothing more.

Thanks

Brad

TimmyC230boy

its always been and always will be about $$$$

VoyagerDude

We all know that there is a certain level of misinformation is going on on this board, simply because people may not know the subject well and have to guess about certain things.

Randy is one of the most knowledgable "posters" when in comes to Renntech, so why should he not share his knowledge on the subject, and raise the level of correct first-hand info available to us.

I'm, personally, tired of guesswork and would love performance mod. info.

otoupalik

We welcome him to respond to any questions or threads pertaining to the product Randy sells. However, his signature is the problem. There is no issue with his posts. He is not the type to post un-solicited RennTech threads, which would be prohibited.

His signature has nothing to do with the level of knowledge he has or his ability to respond to questions that are asked of him or threads where he can add to.

Does this help to clarify things?

Thanks

Brad

Mr. Vanos

This is rather interesting Randy. If anything I was more than patient with you. My first email which you never responded to clearly stated, "should you wish to become a paid advertiser, please contact us and we'd be happy to send you an ad packet". I respect your knowledge and all the information you have provided this community. The issue I had was you advertising Brumos in your sig with the phone number...it had nothing to do with RENNtech mods in your sig or you discussing RENNtech or any other tuner for that matter. After my third email you responded that you don't care to hear anymore given there is no 'terms of use' policy stated. Well, now there is.

Please understand, this site is not a place for free advertising- I don't know of any site that is. It costs money to keep this site going and for the longest time it was out of my own pocket. Paying advertisers help support and maintain the site and all the hardware it's running on. This is not a money making machine and a lot of people dedicate many hours of their own time to the upkeep of the site. So, I say again, the Terms of Use are NOT a means to stop people from sharing Mercedes-related information, so please don't read it that way. If anything we have always encouraged that. But, blatant posts or signatures that are directly aimed at soliciting business is one of the items these policies address. It is unfair for any business to attempt to reap the benefits of a site like this for free, while others pay for it.

This is obviously a very senstitive issue with me and I hope everyone can see the intentions here. If they were unclear, then I apologize. Anyone that knows me (and many of you do), know that I am a VERY patient and understanding individual. I have always said that this is YOUR site, the users, and I built this site for YOU. You are always welcome to email me with any issues or concerns: mister_vanos@mbworld.org.

Xeon

well...a complicated issue...i think that both parties have both their arguments...

renn...maybe you shouldnt have anything about brumos or renntech in your signature....let alone a phone number...in fact... i was pretty tempted to call you guys up to find out more abt the mods you offer for my car...this show how effective your post + signature are...and this shows why the admin choose to interfere.

but, i value everyones posts...especially ppl like renncpe...buellwinkle..and all other ppl who knows a lot about car... lets make peace and everyone will be sharing great information!

renncpe

This was my response to your letter in which you did not reply to. There two side to this issue.
“I really don't expect any more about this until you make a public change of policy. I have not breached any policies that are posted on the board nor have I acted in such a manor that would suggest than I was using the board as a sales platform.”

Both points I made were correct.

I feel that this all came about from one thread in which I did not feel that the information provided was accurate. Frankly I feel like I was being singled out because I voiced my opinion rather strongly in defense of the facts.

I do not think that I devalue the paid sponsors of this board if anything our pricing is consistently higher than any other tuners here. I would think that I was good for business. If you would like run a poll to inquire how many members have purchased anything directly from me. I think you will find that I have actually sold very little from my posts here, that really has not the driving factor for my participation on this forum. I have sold several c-7 package parts to members at what is basically wholesale. That is OEM MB parts. This was simply done out of good will and to support a product and group of owners that I have enjoyed reading and post with.

Randy

Mr. Vanos

Randy, this has nothing to do with the value your business brings. Please, I think you're missing the point here. I was not singling you out- I wrote to you directly as I have other individuals. In fact, if anything, you motivated me to compile this terms document which I think will help make things clearer. In any case, believe me that I have nothing against you personally, just the signature you used. This was NOT in reply to any post or response you made as I don't have time to read all the posts. If you'd like to discuss this further, please contact me via email or I'd be happy to discuss this over the phone. Thanks.

otoupalik

Randy,

If you feel singled out because of a single post then I don't know what to say. I know for a fact that is not true. However, you and a few others consistently posted a signature that was against the policies that we were already working on. Your e-mail reply was in fact the catalyst to finally post the policy. I can also assure you that your feelings as to the devaluation of sponsorship to paid advertisers is irrelevant. The fact is that there are those that do pay that have complained - PERIOD!

This is the policy. You asked for the policy. You will have to deal with the policy that you asked for!

I am still confused as to why you did not reply to our first e-mail asking you to sponsor? Or why you left that out of your rant above when you stated "I find it interesting that I was not sent an invitation to join the paid advertisers, or any rate information on being an advertiser." This is 100% false and you know it!

You are welcome to post and we absolutely would like to have you be a sponsor, but these rants are ridiculous. And your feeling of persecution is just that - YOUR feeling. You are not the victim here, the advertisers who pay to do the same thing you were doing for free are the victims.

Without sponsors and PAID advertisers, this board could NOT exist!

These policies are consistent with every other major board on the Internet - this should not be new to anyone.

Brad

renncpe

one example

The other post was deleted Otoupack would you spend money to be a paid sponsor in this type of environment? I know that this info posted is not correct. Can I be assured that I will get fair representation here?

Randy

otoupalik

I am not even sure what you are saying here?

If you are asking me if I would be a paid sponsor here - well - we have been paying in the thousands of dollars each and every month for a long time. I don't even have a signature file with contact info for my company! Neither does Simon (Mr. Vanos)!

The only posts that are deleted are ones where there are over-the-top personal attacks, inappropriate language or vulgarity or pornography or direct solicitation of sales from a non-sponsor.

If a moderator deletes something that they shouldn't have, which has happened, then that moderator will be dealt with.

ALL sponsors are given the same privileges as to representation. There are different levels of sponsorship, and corresponding levels of exposure however.

If you are interested, we can get you an advertising package ASAP.

Thanks

Brad

renncpe

I just just useing that post as an example it was very negative, and not factual.

I would like to see what my opportunities would be.

Thanks

Randy

WyattEarp

Funny you should say that tommy here's a picture of our illustrious leaders. Names witheld to protect the innocent.

renncpe

Brad I have still not gotten any information about the advertisers program!! I thought I would have gotten it by now?

Randy

young

my 4 cents...

1st - randy has never solicited business for renntech. if he was asked, he replied or clarified or otherwise been helpful.

2nd - if randy has info in his sig saying that he works for renntech, i consider that public disclosure. that is, i would be upset if it seemed that he had been hiding the fact that he worked for renntech while discussing renntech products. much like i would feel if kleemann changed his userid to bob and said how good kleemann was (not saying this is happening - just hypothetically). also, a phone number is public information - i could call directory service in florida or goto their website and get the info.

3rd - karl k's conflict of interest suddenly gets more credible. i thought it was more laid back but it seems the hammer is coming down.

4th - c'mon - how much could running a site be? isn't it a business write-off also? simon, tell me you're not doing it for the money - more of a general edification of mercedes cars!

(ok - 5th - i am a very poor business man... so, timmyboy, it's not always about the $$$)

Accord

Young, running a massive website with a ton of traffic costs a LOT of money. I used to run a website (It was not MB related) that was just about the same size as this site with forums and about the same number of members, and the cheapest hosting costs and such ran me upwards of more than $1000 a month.

The only way to keep a website of massive proportions alive is through sponsorships and advertising. This is why Formula 1 teams, and nearly every other sport has sponsors and advertisers. Without them, the sports would not exist at a professional level.

Lets take an NHL game for example. If you're company is Pepsi, and you paid a large sum of money to be an official sponsor of a certain hocker arena, you would have your logos, banners, etc. put up all over the arena. Now, would you be happy if Coka-Cola came along and just start putting up their banners? I sure wouldn't be happy.

Even non-profit organizations and charities will not allow free advertising at events they have, etc.

About KarlK's post, the advertisement in the particular signature of the moderator he is talking about is infact a paying sponsor/advertiser of the website.

My old avatar was infact the logo of a company who was a non-paying sponsor/advertiser, and when the new TOS went into effect, I changed my avatar in accordance with the new TOS, and I am a moderator. Moderators and members of MBWorld all have to follow the same rules. Being a moderator has no special perks, I am here to make sure that the forums of MBWorld.org remain in a clean, safe, and respectable enviroment.

Thanks

young

oh, i know the costs. is $1000+/month a lot of money for you? for me it is...

and i understand what advertising is for and of course, professional teams, etc. need it and enforce it. but i thought mbworld was less formal/rigid.

and one of karl's points was that evosport - as the owner of mbworld - cannot objectively deal w/ non-evosport related companies such as renntech b/c it conflicts w/ their own self-interest. so, mbworld has an interest to mis-represent competitors. and of course, i am not saying that is in any way happening - just that that conflict exists. let me use this example: coca cola may run a site, but when pepsi wants to advertise on that site... what should coca cola do? what is their interest? i know a lot of businesses that use personally immoral, but business-ethically prudent tactics.

in the end, i am not saying that mbworld should not have an advertising policy. and i'm not saying that mbworld should be anarchic. just that the idea of a "free forum to learn/share about mercedes" has evolved to "sort-of free forum to learn/share about mb" is not the same thing. (and this may have been just my own personal misunderstanding of mbworld and it's objectives - if so, let me know and i can adjust my own expectations of mbworld)

and on a practical level, is there such a big deal if randy has his company info in his sig? are there a lot of such non-paying forum members? i have to reiterate the value of public disclosure. i think it is of benefit for me to know that randy's views may be compromised by his affiliation w/ renntech. or kleemann. or whomever. public disclosure does not equal advertising. you might as well make randy change his tag from renncpe b/c that is advertising...

hypothetically, if ben outopalik (sorry if i mangled your name... ) says that kleemann is better than renntech, it helps me make a more informed assessment of his statements knowing that evosport is a kleemann dealer.

a lot of this is philosophical in nature than anything else. and i hope no-one is taking this personally. i apologize for intimating that renntech, kleemann or evosport in any way is mis-representing or slandering their competitors.