Spud_Racer

LOL you guys are hilarious. OK, the cars sucks. Never own a Mercedes out of warranty. Perpetual leases for everyone. Why did you guys buy this car in the first place? Apparently they are worse than Hyundai's. Thinking like this is why I was able to buy this car at 55% off MSRP with 36,000 miles on it.

The tail light fix was engineered.

The transmission fix was engineered. This 7 speed automatic goes into many Mercedes products. Do you really think Mercedes would just keep putting defective parts into the production line line knowing that it will come back as a warranty expense and leave customers pissed at their premium brand? Really?

The Airmatic suspension goes into many Mercedes products as well. Do you really think Mercedes wants to bleed out their profits in warranty costs and trash their premium brand? No, as soon as a failure mode was identified a design engineer and industrial engineer were all over the supply chain to get this stopped.

The Pano roof fix was engineered.

I'd be willing to bet the differential was an early assembly line problem that an industrial engineering team was all over. The same 4 Matic system goes into the ML and GL.

There's nothing else in your list that's really out of the ordinary for a new model cutting its teeth on a production line. The mechanical systems in these cars aren't rocket science.

According to this forum, Mercedes should have been out of business by now. But they are actually the leading premium brand in North America. Hmmm. Must be millions of really stupid consumers out there.

gforaker

Spud, you have to realize that these people who had their problems are not making them up. They really are sharing their experience and frustration.

You also have to realize that they may not be representative of the entire owner base. It is pretty much an accepted observation that forums like this tend to attract people who have had problems and are looking for confirmation. The thousands upon thousands of happy owners never bother to even find these forums.

Spud_Racer

Yeah, I'm a car nut so I suppose I'm used to more diverse forums where enthusiasts go to talk about their sports cars, mods, other cars, tires, racing, and yes.....stuff that breaks. The enthusiasm generally runs high though.

This is like the Debbie Downer forum. Everyone sharing stories about how much their car sucks and scared to death to own a Mercedes (any Mercedes) out of warranty. That tells me a lot of people are driving cars they really can't afford to own. And, as a result you don't get the enthusiasts here but rather a disproportionate number of the people who have had a bad experience. That's probably more true with the W251 as a family hauler doesn't generally get people's pulse up like an AMG product.

I realize the complainers aren't making up their woes. But at the same time I think these people may have had unrealistic expectations going in. I'm not starry eyed over the Mercedes brand expecting them to be perfect simply because they slap a high price tag on their cars. Nor do I think they suck. The entire industry shares a common supplier base across the globe. They are all about in the same place with manufacturing technology. The competition is fierce. Anyone who falls off the path is quickly left in the dust. And right now, Mercedes is leading the pack.

Many of the components used in the W251 are shared across other Mercedes platforms. Engines, the 7 speed automatic, 4matic AWD, Airmatic suspension, Comand system, alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, brakes, steering racks, etc. Mercedes cannot afford to ignore parts quality. No manufacturer can. Fixing failures in the field with a warranty is the worst possible solution for a manufacturer. It costs them money and reputation.

Another thing I'm not sure people think of when they buy a car like this. When you move from FWD or RWD to AWD, you triple the number of differentials in the drive train. That's two more expensive components that can fail. That's just the way it is until we get separate electric motors driving each wheel.

Look, the Honda S2000 had a problem with banjo bolts in early production. Honda fixed it. The SLK32 had a problem with crank position sensors and a leaking transmission plug. Easy fixes. The 04/05 GTO had a problem with infant mortality of the electronic instrument cluster. GM fixed the supplier problem early in 05 production. The Pacifica was known for failure of the 4 speed automatic in early production. Chrysler fixed the problem. Stuff happens. Leave plenty of financial slack to cover yourself. I expect the R500 to be about the same as our Infiniti or the Pacifica I just sold from a reliability standpoint. Which is to say very good but not perfect.

supernsx

First of all, you need to understand all public traded companies must make the most money for their stockholders. Mercedes makes money primary in three ways: New cars, Service/Part and Financing. If you are in their shoes, there are very little incentives for them to make their cars ultra reliable, that all owners will stay with their cars forever, especially they sell in such small number of cars (compared to Honda, GM, Ford and so forth). As long as the cars "reliable enough" without major issues to pissed off the new car owners, they are good. MB actually doesn't want owners to stay with their cars long. There is why there are so many leasing program out there. Also, as cars start having small issues (sometimes as early as the third years), the car owners are start being annoyed and concerned even without any out of pocket cost on repairs. That is a win for MB since there are cars waiting on the dealer lots for these owners to trade-in.

For the pre-owned buyers like us, we are not the primary Mercedes marketing target. When you compare the number of commercial between new car vs. CPO, you can see there is a difference in their focus. We got the car in such a low price (relative to the new car price) and our expectation usually adjust accordingly about reliability. Many of us know what we are getting into (otherwise we will go with Lexus) and that's why people like us to discuss extended warranty here to protect the downside of the repair bills.

Btw, I am not downer on MB and also my problem with my R-class is factual not opinion. I have two W204 C-class back to back the last five years and have not experienced one problem. If you are asking me about extended warranty on a W204 C-class, I will probably have a different opinion and point of view. Another problem with R-class is the cost to repair a simple item. Replace a front axle of a Ford probably cost you about $300. For my R-class, it is close to $1K.

Do you know how much revenue Mercedes get from selling cars? Answer: 51%. Financing? Answer: 15%. It means MB is making some serious money on Service and Parts. Go back to my original question. What is the incentive for them to make ultra reliable car? Frankly, not much and definitely not in MB best interest.

Spud_Racer

Just remembered another German car anecdote. About 6 months ago a friend at work bought a Porsche Cayenne S. He had to have one. If I remember correctly it's an 08 and it had about 45,000 miles on it. He also had to have a clutch, no automatic.

So, he finds a car on the west coast (we're in CT) in the hands of a non Porsche dealer, buys it and has it shipped. No inspection, never saw the car except in photos. After he gets it he tells me he doesn't like the clutch or the shifter.

My first question.....didn't you test drive an automatic and a manual locally before you bought one?

His answer.....nope. I shake my head an call him an idiot. No, I really did.

So, a week or two goes by and he tells me the car smells. We go back and forth on the nature of the offending odor and decide it's probably the clutch. He takes the Cayenne to a Porsche dealer and promptly has a heart attack (figuratively).

The Porsche dealer tells him the clutch is indeed shot along with the flywheel. Total cost to repair? Just over $3,000. The guy was sick over it.

The clutch is a wear item but 45,000 miles? How do you destroy a clutch in 45,000 miles? Not doing anything you should. Makes me wonder "what else"?

And then at some point he asks me if he can use 87 octane gas in the Cayenne. I ask what the manual specifies. 91 Octane. Does it give an octane range or just a minimum recommended value? 91 minimum. Well, you have your answer. He simply didn't like the answer. He would scrimp 20 cents per gallon at the pump and possibly reduce the life of the engine or cause major valve train damage over time to save a few dollars per week.

Do Porsche's suck? No, they are generally acknowledged to have very good quality and reliability. Are they expensive to buy and maintain? Yup! Is that a secret? Nope!

What I don't understand is why people buy cars without doing research first or ignore the research and plow ahead anyway with a vehicle purchase they either cannot or do not want to afford. I mean, I'm in love with the idea of owning an F430 Challenge Stradale. But I know I'd be kicking myself til the day I die for wasting money like that on a completely impractical car. So it remains a nice dream.

xxGenericSNxx

I agree with all the bolded statements. But this is generally true of the SUV section of the forum here as the ML and GL boards are quite similar. It simply isn't like the AMG boards where everyone's talking about mods and stuff like that. The R Class is, as I see it, geared towards the boring conservative MB crowd (not saying all owners are like that- just making a very broad generalization) so we typically get more threads that are geared towards reliability/ ownership experiences rather than go fast parts. Quite simply, it just sort of comes with the territory.


Unless the W251 is an AMG =P

With that said, it's hard to hide the fact that these cars have all of those common issues and even your car had many of those problems (albeit already fixed).

Spud_Racer

Yeah, but I look at a manufacturer's warranty as insurance against the risk of infant mortality problems in the short term and not a guarantee against any mechanical wear and failure ever.

Modern cars are complex beasts. Modern luxury cars loaded up with all the bells-n-whistles are the extreme example. Manufacturers do their best to engineer a good product and assemble it properly. But on anything this complex, shiit happens.

So, they build warranty costs into the selling price and sell you a risk policy along with a car or truck and call it a warranty. That should cover 90% of the infant mortality stuff from the assembly line or parts suppliers over the initial 4 year term. The exposure is greater with new models and/or new production lines. Both of these scenarios describe my 2007 R500. And the warranty apparently did what it was designed to do.

Mercedes got some stuff wrong early on with a new platform. They stood behind the product and fixed it in my case. I'm not expecting disaster. Will my air bellows fail again? Hell yes! They are rubber and subject to degradation like hoses and belts. They take a pounding. But air suspension has been around forever on heavy vehicles. It ain't a mystery. They know how to do this. The M113E50 V8 engine in my R500 on the other hand is used all over the lineup and has been bulletproof. The 7 speed automatic is ubiquitous in Mercedes lineup and has done very well overall. 4Matic is also a proven design with no abnormal failure rate. Regular maintenance per the factory recommendations will give you the best shot at avoiding things like a water pump, oil pump, PS pump, or differential failure.

But frankly, I'd be shocked if any car built in the past decade couldn't make it to at least 150,000 miles with good maintenance.

gforaker

I really disagree with your theory that a car manufacturer is not concerned with reliability. New car buyers are concerned with the total cost of ownership which is very connected with depreciation and repairs. Lease customers are concerned about the residual value which affects the lease cost. Cars with higher repairs will depreciate faster and cost more to lease. Manufacturers are also concerned with used car buyers. Not only does it increase the brand value, but many used buyers will eventually move up to a new car.

Car magazines and consumer ratings organizations here and in Europe really attacked MB for quality control in parts of the 90's and 00's. Reportedly MB became concerned and is now giving QC a much higher effort. Many of the complaints here are from owners of 2006 and 2007 models. My 2010 seems to be much better.

I think the greater problem is not the failure rate, but the cost of repairs. I don't expect my Benz to have a higher problem rate than a Chevy, Cadillac or Lincoln, but the cost to repair it will be much worse. When my Chrysler van needed a transmission rebuild at 140k miles it cost around $2000. A similar repair to the Benz would be in excess of $7000.

supernsx

Not disagreeing with you. My main points was there is a different between "ultra reliable" vs. "good enough". Based on what I have seen, I believe MB will stop at "good enough" and compromise reliability with other factors. Airmatic is a great example. We got train as customers that it is generally acceptable the airmatic will fail after couple of years, even though MB has been using air suspensions on AMG and S/SL/CL for more than a decade.

Spud_Racer

I wouldn't say a couple of years is acceptable in any customer's mind. But an air spring is rubber. As such, it is susceptible to degradation from a combination of time, wear, and weather. I can accept the bellows failing between 80-100K after 6 or 7 years just as shocks lose their performance and need to be replaced. Air springs will need maintenance over the life of the car unlike a metal coil or leaf spring. Personally, I would replace them between 80-100K even if they haven't failed just to prevent a failure.

The only issue I have is the ridiculous prices Mercedes charges for OEM parts and dealer prices for labor. But that's OK too in to case of the Airmatic bellows. We have an aftermarket supplier who stepped in to take advantage of Mercedes. At $344 per corner with a lifetime warranty, Arnott is no doubt cleaning up due to Mercedes pricing.

But Mercedes cannot afford to let a glaring quality issue go unanswered for long on one of their premium technology options. They wouldn't be in business for long. And every warranty issue cost them profits along with potential future sales. They care about quality.

krishchin

Hey,

Talk to Travis Eastman
Finance Director
Mercedes Benz of Elmbrook
262-821-5000 ext 349

He gives you a very good deal on the MB CPO extended warranty . Much Much less than others and you will be surprised and excited

Thank you,
krish