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Hello I've been watching all the W251rs over the years and finally decided to jump on if that's cool, I currently live in Germany (military). Here's my question... Can I take ML63 calipers and rotors, brake lines, and directly fit them on my 2008 R320 CDI? If not do you know what I else I need? I see people have done other large brake retrofits with custom drilling on a R500...but I am looking for something with less work involved. I can get a used set here in Germany for pretty cheap ($1000 to 1200 complete setup and since I do use the Autobahn regularly I could really used the improved braking power, especially at 130 mph. The Brabus Mono 6 Piston package is very costly, more than I want to spend. Can I take an ML63 calipers and rotors and directly fit them on my 2008 R320 CDI. If not do you know what I need to do. I see people have done other large brake retrofits on a R500 but I am looking for something with less work. People say its overkill but I can get a used set here in Germany for pretty cheap ($1000 to 1200) and since I do use the Autobahn regularly I could really used the improved braking power, especially out here. The Brabus Mono 6 Piston package is very costly, more than I want to spend.
Background:
I am Air Force military officer here in Germany we may or may not have spoke before my name is Darrick. I have been doing a lot of the same things the R500 project guy has been doing along with my own blend.
Thanks for any help.
R320, Brabus springs, black interior carpet retrofit, black leather seats retrofit on beige interior, Brabus winter Monoblock A, (looking at some 22" mono block Es) for my summer set), Brabus floormats, AMG wood chestnut steering wheel, diesel box power upgrade.
Background:
Thanks for any help.
R320, Brabus springs, black interior carpet retrofit, black leather seats retrofit on beige interior, Brabus winter Monoblock A, (looking at some 22" mono block Es) for my summer set), Brabus floormats, AMG wood chestnut steering wheel, diesel box power upgrade.
Last edited by alenaduran; May 27, 2015 at 03:57 PM.
regardless of mechanical fit, it is not recommended to do these sorts of swaps. Braking performance is engineered by matching break cylinder/piston, caliper size, and disk size to provide braking pressure and performance that matches front/rear and the car dynamics. Changing any of these would change the design of the brakes... you are on your own!
regardless of mechanical fit, it is not recommended to do these sorts of swaps. Braking performance is engineered by matching break cylinder/piston, caliper size, and disk size to provide braking pressure and performance that matches front/rear and the car dynamics. Changing any of these would change the design of the brakes... you are on your own!
What??? Your just joking right??
Brakes are often designed to a price point. Mercedes included. That is why "performance" models usually have upgraded brakes.
I do not know the fitment answer for the original poster, but upgrading the brakes to a larger setup is fine, and can actually improve the vehicles safety with increased braking power.
One of the worse things I see is when someone upgrades the drive train increasing power and also upgrades the tires for increased grip but does nothing to the brakes....
Brakes are often designed to a price point. Mercedes included. That is why "performance" models usually have upgraded brakes.
I do not know the fitment answer for the original poster, but upgrading the brakes to a larger setup is fine, and can actually improve the vehicles safety with increased braking power.
One of the worse things I see is when someone upgrades the drive train increasing power and also upgrades the tires for increased grip but does nothing to the brakes....
Well he's partially right. A master cylinder designed for small calipers can work with a large caliper set but life span is significantly affected and probability of failure goes up.
Well he's partially right. A master cylinder designed for small calipers can work with a large caliper set but life span is significantly affected and probability of failure goes up.
.....and after 30 plus years of messing with cars and trucks including working with friends racing have I ever seen that happen..
Brakes are often designed to a price point. Mercedes included. That is why "performance" models usually have upgraded brakes.
I do not know the fitment answer for the original poster, but upgrading the brakes to a larger setup is fine, and can actually improve the vehicles safety with increased braking power.
One of the worse things I see is when someone upgrades the drive train increasing power and also upgrades the tires for increased grip but does nothing to the brakes....
well then Master Jeff... instead of simply criticizing other people's replies, do answer the OPs original question and provide the correct and tested recommendations for a brake swap!
well then Master Jeff... instead of simply criticizing other people's replies, do answer the OPs original question and provide the correct and tested recommendations for a brake swap!
As stated in the post you quoted, I haven't done the research on the exact fitment. I could probably figure it out with a few hours of research, but I will leave that to the OP. My initial guess it that it will work. If the larger brake calipers mount to the same hub then it should be an easy swap.
As for operation, the fact that the M and R share a great many mechanical bits and are very close in weight means the brakes would perform fine.
As for the master cylinder performance, again, the M and R are of the same platform so again the slightly larger caliper would have little to no effect on that as well. If anything, the setup would be less taxing on those components since less pressure would be needed to achieve adequate braking force. Hydraulics is not affected by volume in the same way as other fluid systems. It is this principle that drives a large aftermarket. See, in no way would reputable vendors sell brake upgrade kits if they were creating dangerous situations. While the performance benefits can be debated on a lot of aftermarket modifications, companies will always make sure they aren't selling something that will cause a safety failure resulting in major lawsuits...
Again, I jumped on here because others were wrongly critical of his original question, yet it is you that got all defensive. And for the name calling..... Let me fill you in Audio Boy....
I am the one that figured out that there is a M Class coil spring that is a direct cross reference to the European R Class coil spring.. Same part exactly. Before that the only coil replacement was from a Jeep.... I then proceeded to change my R350 over to full coil spring suspension eliminating the rear air bags all together. I did that on a weekend in my garage with no lift. My R sits and rides like stock. My servicing dealer is sufficiently impressed with my mechanical skill that when they do service it they will check stuff and recommend things for me to do not stuff for them to schedule. I have been lucky that I haven't really had to do much to keep it running great.
Back to the OP.... if you need help doing the research, bring this thread back on track and I will be more than willing to help.....
regardless of mechanical fit, it is not recommended to do these sorts of swaps. Braking performance is engineered by matching break cylinder/piston, caliper size, and disk size to provide braking pressure and performance that matches front/rear and the car dynamics. Changing any of these would change the design of the brakes... you are on your own!
hmmm, fyi, MB *did* offer W251s with the same brakes as those found on the ML63 (the W164 one, at least) from the factory. parts from the W164 ML63 brake system seem to be an exact interchange for the W251 R63, so I'd assume you could do a bolt-on swap. i'm curious about the differences in master cylinder sizes between the different R models, and unfortunately, that kind of information seems to be hard to find anywhere, so i'd personally recommend swapping the master in addition to the lines and calipers and rotors if you're looking to get the most "balanced/oem" feeling possible.
Here is a little trick I have for crossing parts.....
Find out the part number you are looking for then search for that part on the web. You may find that part listed under various models.... So instead of searching by Model, you search by part number.
Another trick... search for used cars for sale where the VIN is listed.. use that VIN on the free part of Mercedes' Star System to look up parts.. then look yours up and see if the part numbers are the same or different.
So, a quick parts search netted this....
R350 Master Cyl.
1644300401 - MASTER CYLINDER
R350; From 11/30/06
MSRP Core ? Online Price
$240.00 $0.00 $204.00
ML63 Master Cyl...
BRAKES / HYDRAULIC SYSTEM / HYDRAULIC SYSTEM / MASTER CYLINDER
1644300401 - MASTER CYLINDER
ML63 AMG
MSRP Core ? Online Price
$240.00 $0.00 $204.00
Hmmm.... funny thing.... same part number...
This is a Mercedes OEM parts site.......
OK, I really have more important things to do.... Again, OP... if you really want to do this, I can help... but you too will have to do some of the leg work....
Last edited by josworth; May 30, 2015 at 07:03 AM.
I just want to say thank you everybody for replying and in the meantime I wanted to post my new wheel upgrade that I got here in Germany. 22 x 10 Brabus Monoblock E with 295/30zr22 yokohamas. I got them for 1/5 of what they go for new so I think I got a good deal.
Jeff
I am all for a good debate, but I do not engage in Ad Hominem. I stick to discussing the ideas and not the person. You can do so if you wish, it says more about you than who you decide to attack.
Great for you that you found out all the part numbers fpr coil swaps! Thank you for contributions to the forum!
The point about brakes, or any performance upgrade for that matter, is can you actually measure a before and after improvement in performance, and what and how do you measure it? Are you making smart choices based on understanding or are you just fitting parts because they are bigger and you think it will better. Or does the fancy AMG logo on the calipers just make you feel good? That is OK too!
For brakes it comes down to several factors.
Modulation: Can you easily modulate brake pressure to slow the car down without premature lockup? This is affected by cylinder and caliper, pad and disk design.
Front and rear balance: Does the front or rear lockup before the other? Are the front and rear pressures balanced and how? Many race cars have in cockpit balance control. Cars do not! This will be affected by weight shift during braking as well as suspension tuning. Does the ML63 have the same front rear weight distribution? Does the suspension limit front end dive compared to a stock R?
Ultimate stopping power and distance: I bet that it is more related to tires than brakes, at least for one emergency stop.
Fading over many stops: This is rarely an issue on road. How often to you stress the brakes over and over again on the street, especially for a car like the R. This is not a weekend street racer! More of a track issue.
Are there any issues with the stock R brakes that are give poor results in the above criteria? Which ones? What would be the best way to improve the performance? Maybe just a disc and or pad swap would help? Are
the ML63 parts similar enough to actually improve overall performance? Is there a potential mismatch that may cause one or more measures to deteriorate. How will you measure this?
As for the aftermarket, yes there are tons of products and manufacturers. How many are actually tested and compared in an objective way given that most sources of information on aftermarket parts such as websites and magazines also rely on advertising dollars from the same companies it tests?
I am not suggesting not to do swaps and upgrades. Just do it with eyes wide open!
Jeff
I am all for a good debate, but I do not engage in Ad Hominem. I stick to discussing the ideas and not the person. You can do so if you wish, it says more about you than who you decide to attack. My sarcastic "new name" was a direct reply to your level of immature sarcasm. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Great for you that you found out all the part numbers fpr coil swaps! Thank you for contributions to the forum!
The point about brakes, or any performance upgrade for that matter, is can you actually measure a before and after improvement in performance, and what and how do you measure it? Are you making smart choices based on understanding or are you just fitting parts because they are bigger and you think it will better. Or does the fancy AMG logo on the calipers just make you feel good? That is OK too!
In the original post he clearly stated that he is looking for better brake performance. Logically, if compatible, the AMG setup would be. Improved high speed braking, etc. So, the documented performance tests of the AMG model would provide adequate information for this scenario.
For brakes it comes down to several factors.
Modulation: Can you easily modulate brake pressure to slow the car down without premature lockup? This is affected by cylinder and caliper, pad and disk design.
Front and rear balance: Does the front or rear lockup before the other? Are the front and rear pressures balanced and how? Many race cars have in cockpit balance control. Cars do not! This will be affected by weight shift during braking as well as suspension tuning. Does the ML63 have the same front rear weight distribution? Does the suspension limit front end dive compared to a stock R?
Ultimate stopping power and distance: I bet that it is more related to tires than brakes, at least for one emergency stop.
Fading over many stops: This is rarely an issue on road. How often to you stress the brakes over and over again on the street, especially for a car like the R. This is not a weekend street racer! More of a track issue.
Valid points and would be worth considering if building a race car. The addition of larger OEM rotors and calipers are not going to move the parameters you bring up to a level that would create the issues you bring up.
Are there any issues with the stock R brakes that are give poor results in the above criteria? Which ones? What would be the best way to improve the performance? Maybe just a disc and or pad swap would help? Are
the ML63 parts similar enough to actually improve overall performance? Is there a potential mismatch that may cause one or more measures to deteriorate. How will you measure this?
See Above
As for the aftermarket, yes there are tons of products and manufacturers. How many are actually tested and compared in an objective way given that most sources of information on aftermarket parts such as websites and magazines also rely on advertising dollars from the same companies it tests?
Again, I never said that aftermarket manufacturers are totally on the up and up when it comes to performance gains... I said, they would not market products that would cause an unsafe situation in a sue happy society.
I am not suggesting not to do swaps and upgrades. Just do it with eyes wide open!
Enjoy your ride!
"Audio Boy"
See answers above in red...
Now, to @alenaduran, looking closer at your wheel pictures you need to make a move one way or the other on your brakes. The rotors you have look really bad and having driven on the Autobahn myself, I would get them taken care of ASAP.
Those brake rotors look brand new not even bedded in (paint is still on the braking surface). Do the 295 width tires not rub on the inner fenders? I had 265 and they did, unless the wheel offset is much different from mine.
One way to find out big brake info is google R class images and then click on the pics with goodies, usually the site has a build page or info on the vehicle, there are a couple of "built" R's out there. I have not noticed any different basics between the models, the steering system, the upright that holds the calipers between different models. I would be concerned if they have the special brakes like the E class/SL etc with hydraulic system, but no issue with that here. Weight is your biggest problem, and big wheels are NOT going to help with that! You could play with brake pad compounds, tires on small wheels (the lighter the wheel the better), before upgrading hardware. There should be some tuner shops in Europe that will have an answer too.
Just wanted to follow up with everyone, finally got around to installing these badboys. This was literally a Plug and Play, except the only tweek wasthe rear brake disk shields which I just cut the part that was hanging over the rotor. Took me 5 minutes to cut the metal off the rear shields. I was contemplating buying the R63/Ml63 brake shields, but it didn't make sense to spend that money. Overall a very nice upgrade to the R320CDI. All W251's are heavy by nature these just provide the correct ratio of stopping power IMO. Thanks for your advice everyone many months ago. I am a military officer and constantly working or traveling so sometimes my projects take a rain check. Next step is I will trade those nasty lug bolts out for some black zinc coated ones, I promise.
Since I'm in Germany I ended up going with a paint brand called Foliatec. After sanding and prepping I blended their Plasti Dip and their Caliper paint (I'll explain upon request). I then sprayed a brand called Duplicolor 650 celsius rated clearcoat (6 coats, yes 6 the clear was only 3 bucks a can used, 1.5 cans).
These are original ML63/R63 ATE AMG brakes. I used Brabus Decals since my interior, Diesel Chip, wheels, and suspension are Brabus. Poser I suppose, not really though because these are AMG Calipers, the Brabus Monobloc pistons are good but they run like $8-10K. In all I spent about $1600 in parts for this upgrade including new rotors, pads, donor calipers, brake sensors, rotor screws, brake fluid, etc.
the grey shown on the caliper is bew brake paste right out of the shop (I'll clean them up later). These 390mm rotors in the front still don't fill up the 22" wheels, but they sure looks a lot better than the old 330mm stocks
My brother came up with the color scheme, this color is called Turkis Blau Glazend or Torquoise Gloss Blue. It resembles a Tifanny Blue color, I also have some glow in the dark clear plastidip on top of the main color basecoat. They look very cool in the dark especially with a little UV charge.
Car does not usually sit this high in the back, it's about 1.5 inches but I was on a hill. 360MM in the back looks small but its what came with the R63/Set Up. Car is fitted with Brabus springs and Brabus rear links <br/>
Car stops on a dime now, just what I was looking for here in Germany and for Autobahn and regular driving.
Last edited by alenaduran; Jan 20, 2016 at 01:29 PM.
Reason: Spelling
Also now running 285/35ZR22 all season Atturos, it's the only all-season tires in 22's I believe in the world! In Germany from October through May by law you have to have either Winter or M+S rating all season. Surprisingly, I got them for a reasonable price and they are quiet (for 22 inch tires). They are gaining steam and have a good review. The tire diameter is slightly more than a 265/35/22 and 295/30/22 tires. No Rubbing, I am using 20mm H & R spacers all the way around. Looks a little meaner on the road.
Are the brabus springs & lowering links still available in Germany? I sent an inquiry to brabus usa and they said they cannot get them. Thanks.
They are not available anymore per Bottrop Brabus Headquarters, however, you have to look for them on ebay.de, no gurantees you will find, sometimes third party suppliers will purchase original discontinued Brabus items. I can tell you although I am happy with the springs they lowered my car in the front enough to create almost 3 degrees of negative camber on the front and that's with the camber adjustment bolts. However, I have put 20000 miles on my car and surpisingly no early wear on the inside tread.
Here's a little personal input to the brake swapping topic here...
I had an Escalade Caddie that i dressed up somewhat with a supercharger, lowering springs, heavier swaybar and larger Baer brakes. The brakes were specific from Baer for the Caddie which basically and only meant they would fit...
To a simple end...they had supreme braking over the stock IN THE SUMMER under ideal braking conditions but the front rear bias (yes I put them on the rear also) in the winter was extremely unsafe...the fronts would prematurely lock up or say over stop the rears and with the anti lock system being incompatible with the now larger better performing rotor/caliper winter stopping was extremely unsafe...just my .02
Braking performance is engineered by matching break cylinder/piston, caliper size, and disk size to provide braking pressure and performance that matches front/rear and the car dynamics.
lol, someone got BURNED and never came back to the thread.
the oe r350 master cyl "apparently" has more than enough capacity to handle the bigger calipers... awesome retrofit op.
Also now running 285/35ZR22 all season Atturos, it's the only all-season tires in 22's I believe in the world! In Germany from October through May by law you have to have either Winter or M+S rating all season. Surprisingly, I got them for a reasonable price and they are quiet (for 22 inch tires). They are gaining steam and have a good review. The tire diameter is slightly more than a 265/35/22 and 295/30/22 tires. No Rubbing, I am using 20mm H & R spacers all the way around. Looks a little meaner on the road.
I really appreciate you posting all this information about the brake swap. It is exactly what I need to do next after installing my new wheels and tires. I went with 22x9 wheels that came as close as possible to match the AMG wheels. I went with 265/35-22 for the tires. No rubbing at all. Being in the states I am going to have a hard time finding used parts because the R63 is a very rare beast here. Even buying everything new, I feel it's going to be worth it money wise because I have so much room to fill on these wheels.
Also now running 285/35ZR22 all season Atturos, it's the only all-season tires in 22's I believe in the world! In Germany from October through May by law you have to have either Winter or M+S rating all season. Surprisingly, I got them for a reasonable price and they are quiet (for 22 inch tires). They are gaining steam and have a good review. The tire diameter is slightly more than a 265/35/22 and 295/30/22 tires. No Rubbing, I am using 20mm H & R spacers all the way around. Looks a little meaner on the road.
Alenaduran, Would you happen to know or would you be able to find out what the offset is on those sweet Brabus monoblock rims?
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