KoopaTroopas

I currently have a 03' C320 AWD Sedan. I'm looking into buying a 2000 S430 Sedan. The 2000 S430 has Stability Control, Traction Control, and Limited Slip Differential. I was curious as to how the 2000 S430 Sedan does in the snow.
I know it won't do as good as the AWD but will the 2000 S430 having these features (with RWD) do good in 5' + snow and rain?

newton22

Last time I checked, they don't come stock with LSDs.

And I personally believe that no RWD can ever handle or grip the road better than a AWD/4WD in snow.

Skylaw

I had a '00 S500 and did not find it very good in snow. Not as good as a front wheel drive. Better than a rear wheel drive with no traction control at all, but way behind any all-wheel drive I ever had (3 Audis and my '05 S500). We are not permitted to use studded tires where I live, and I rarely HAVE to drive in snow, so i didn't evaluate the car with good snow tires or studs - just all-season radials. Other tires would probably give better results.

Incendiary

Any thoughts on 4matic vs. quattro?

Skylaw

Incendiary,

I have read that there are technical differences, but I have not discerned much in practical difference. I drove my Audis in a wide range of conditions - from dry roads to driving rain and deep puddles to all kinds of snow & ice. The Mercedes, in dry roads and driving rain, but only light snow so far. No packed snow, deep slushy snow, or on ice.

Both are equal as far as I have compared them. The road feel, the command of the road (grip) on dry pavement and in heavy rain with deep puddles are the same (and both are just wonderful). The feel of both is far superior to RWD or FWD, and both were far better than the straight 4WD of my '88 Jeep Cherokee (because of the rapid power shifts and adaptibility to road conditions).

The Mercedes was superb in driving rain and deep puddles resulting from one of the approaching hurricanes in Florida this past year, as my Audis had been in previous storms. I suspect from that that experience the handling will be similar in snow. The cars track absolutely straight when losing traction on one side (of course, deep water on one side will cause a pull in the steering that is easy to counter), but there is no loss of control or start of a skid.

Of course, nothing does extremely well in extensive ice. Small ice patches in the Audis were handled just like deep water (except there was no pull in the steering) - I believe the 4-Matic would do the same. However, on extensive ice patches of the sort that result from freezing rain or from re-freezing after a melt, nothing is going to help. The cars will definitely go - but stopping and steering control are no better than RWD, FWD, 4WD, or anything else on sheets of ice. Sometimes (especially if the ice is thin) even studded tires don't help (as my years of driving in Colorado and northern Maine taught me).

What I can say is that having driven 3 Audis with Quattro setups in a row, covering a period of 14 years, then my 2000 S500 with RWD, it felt great to get back into AWD. I loved the '00 S500, but the major factor in my decision to trade it was the 4-Matic in the '05.

I note that you probably have some serious experience in the 4-Matics. Drive on out to Valley Mercedes and try some of the Audis at their sister dealership across the parking lot. Would be interested in your comparison.

Incendiary

Hey Skylaw, thanks for the extensive reply. I've actually driven a few Audis, all on test drives, though. My impression of them is pretty uniform: fat pigs. No offense to you or others who like them, and I imagine they're not all like this, but all the ones I've test driven have felt very slow and bloated. I was never very impressed by the handling, which I felt was compromised by the weight of whatever Audi is using as well as the AWD componentry. As for grip and that sort of thing, it was difficult to tell based on dry driving conditions...

In any case, I asked your opinion because several converts from Audi on this board (i.e. SAguirre, IIRC) have said that 4matic > quattro. In fact, there was at least one thread on audiworld where people were saying the same thing. I was just wondering why that was so. I'd think a better weight ratio from f to r might have something to do with it, in addition to whatever the technological differences are as well.

Jayhawk

I have no experience w/ AWD, but plenty w/ my '00 S-class on all-season tires. It is not fun on snow and ice, but I understand that tires can make a BIG difference--maybe as much as AWD. I will put that to an empirical test this winter. Last summer I got seasonal tires from The Tire Rack, and so far I can tell you that the summer tires (Goodyear Eagle F1s) are a huge improvement over the all-season OEM Michelins. Luke at TTR also hooked me up w/ Michelin X-Ice winter tires, but I haven't put them on yet--and that is a big mistake because we just had a sudden snow storm and cold blast (9" and -13 degrees real temp) and driving on the summer tires is a little like driving a 2-ton toboggan! (The tire compound gets hard and the tread is virtually useless.) I will have the X-Ice's put on this week, so we probably won't have any more snow this winter...

The reason I said tires may be as important as AWD is because TTR did extensive actual driving tests w/ many winter tires on a BMW--on an ice rink--and found significant differences between them. They especially found four studless winter tires to be superior: (2 Bridgestone Blizzaks were best, the X-Ice next and a Dunlop, I believe.) Luke at TTR told me the S-class would "hate the Blizzaks" because our ESP system, even in the W (winter) transmission setting, would "think" the tires were spinning in snow, and bring the car to a virtual halt. I know that can happen because it has always happened w/ my all-season tires. Anytime it snows, I just turn off the ESP and drive w/out it. I am really looking forward to seeing what happens w/ the X-Ice tires!

See the winter tire review @ https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...er+tire+review

Incendiary

I have Dunlop Winter Sport M3's on my BMW. No troubles last year driving to Detroit and back through blizzard-like conditions. No troubles so far this year. If you're trying to get going in snow, turn off ESP. Don't think MB's let you completely disable traction control like BMW does, but as soon as you get going turn it back on.

I'd prefer AWD for people like my gf or family members, people who aren't really into driving and driving "fun," since it'll help them get going better. As for me, I'd prefer not to have the added weight and complexity since I think I can control my car a little better. That said, if I were in Pittsburgh with all the hills, I'd probably go FWD or AWD for my daily driver...

Jayhawk

Me too...

Skylaw

I had an '86 5000S Turbo Quattro, an '97 A4 1.8t Quattro, and a 2000 A6 2.7T. The best by far was the 2.7T, which was a twin turbo (all 2.7Ts were Quattro). Its suspension was much stiffer than the standard A6; only slightly less stiff than the Sport option or the S6 suspension. I thought it handled great, although there was too much boost in the steering (the A4 was better in that regard). Very little roll, went through the curves just great. Very good acceleration with 2 lightweight turbos that spun fast and accelerated faster. It didn't have quite the balance of a BMW, but it had much more interior room (I have always thought BMW 3, 5, and 7 series to have smallish interiors).

I agree that the standard A6 suspension leaves something to be desired - especially after '03 - but I never owned one. I liked the S500 4Matic suspension better than the A8L I compared it with, but as to AWD, the comparison was only on wet pavement. Not much of a test.

Having had the '05 Mercedes only since September, i haven't put it to much of a snow test - but in every other way it has been a champion.

I have never driven a BMW AWD - but despite the balance of the 5 and 7 classes I drove, I thought the Audi 2.7T (Quattro) and the '05 S500 4-Matic both handle the road better.

wcbaird

I live in Chacago and we've been geting nailed just about every two days with snow since Thanksgiving. I can tell you the car isn't very good in snow and my E430 was much better. I broke down and bought some used wheels and Blizzaks so I can motivate w/o the worry of ending up in the ditch.

As a note, I lived in Finland for 4 years and now how to drive in the snow. If you really want to do it right, buy a set of Nokian tires and you'll be able to outrun the 4 wheel drive guys.

Incendiary

If you were driving a RWD car on summers, then of course your car isn't very good in snow.

Jayhawk

...do you think?

We had a surprise snow storm (9.5" and -13 actual degrees f. the next day) last week, and I still had my summers (Eagle F1s) on. The tire compounds hardened and the tread was usless. It was like driving/steering a two-ton toboggan.

No fun at all...

wcbaird

We had a mini blizzard herre in Chicago tonight. I mounted Blizzaks and finally got to try them out. Not too bad! You still have wheel spin but the car is much more controllable compared to the Falken's on the car.

Jayhawk

Ya. I love my Michelin X-Ice tires on ice and snow. It is like driving a well-mannered tank!

slk55lvr

If you decide to buy a RWD car then get the snow tires immediately. A RWD car with snow tires is a better driver than an awd car with summer tires, no question. Put snows on a 4matic and you can run with Hummers!

apricotscrub

I seriously do not recommend the 00 S430 if you are in snow. I was driving it up an incline, 45 degrees, and total distance about 20 feet, and the stability control definately helped, it was like taking a pair of skies and going up hill having your skies pointed horizontal to the slope, and inching your way up. Definately bad as hell for your tires since they are burning rubber for every inch the stability control helps. Furthermore, the 00 is chock full of issues, get at least an 01 or 02, the price should only be about a few K difference, but I assure you, if you get the 00 you'll end up payin for it at the dealer since nowhere else can service your MB. I do not think S class comes with 4matic, I am not sure, but its real bad if you need to get out of your driveway or any kind of incline, its rendered nearly helpless the ESP doesn't do much really.

Jayhawk

I agree, but would add that an '00 RWD can also run w/ Hummers, w/ a good set of snow tires. At least that has been my experience.

The '00 models get a lot of crap--mostly undeserved IMO, and based on my experience. They are great in snow, IF you have good studless winter tires. They are even better on dry w/ a good set of summer tires, such as the Goodyear Eagle F1s or Michelin PS2s, etc.

I used to think AWD was da bomb but after hearing many complaints from friends and forum-mates alike, I am VERY happy w/ my RWD and appropriate tires!

Kev04C320

I have driven my E55 through a couple storms with the Blizzaks LM25 and was totally statisfied with them. Feels like my car was stuck on to the road.

Can't wait to try the M3 in 19" next winter.