View Poll Results: Which is the better car
Mercedes S-Class
149
81.42%
Lexus LS430
34
18.58%
Voters: 183. You may not vote on this poll
MERCEDES S-CLASS vs LEXUS LS430
#102
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 11
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
Re: Re: Well
Originally posted by KrispyK
One other thing: I'm trying to make a service appointment for my car in the NYC Tri-state area. I just want them to take a look at my check engine light, nothing major at all. They're booked until early November. I know that with most Honda dealerships around here you can get an appointment the next day ... is this how bad MB reliability has gotten? Just food for thought ...
One other thing: I'm trying to make a service appointment for my car in the NYC Tri-state area. I just want them to take a look at my check engine light, nothing major at all. They're booked until early November. I know that with most Honda dealerships around here you can get an appointment the next day ... is this how bad MB reliability has gotten? Just food for thought ...
#103
Re: Re: Re: Well
Originally posted by Accord
I guess it just depends on the dealership, I can goto my dealership without notice and get my car detailed, washed, and serviced within a few hours.
I guess it just depends on the dealership, I can goto my dealership without notice and get my car detailed, washed, and serviced within a few hours.
In the spirit of this thread, I'm going to call at least three local Lexus dealerships (including Manhattan Lexus) and see what the wait times for diagnosing a check-engine light are. I know, it's not a scientific survey, heck, it probably doesn't even meet the requirements for being a survey, but who knows what the results will be?
#104
Yeah its always on the dealer for service.
I switched dealerships about 3times before settling on one that I like. I started at Tustin Lexus(Hated it), Westminster Lexus(Started good but went downhill) and now I drive an hr to Longo Lexus which has the best damn service and aftermarket mod policy out there
MB has the name and that would be my only reason to buy one. As I said earlier, I was looking into a C32 and still don't understand why MB went backwards and went with a V configuration. I don't really understand why they're still using SOHC...emissions issue?
I switched dealerships about 3times before settling on one that I like. I started at Tustin Lexus(Hated it), Westminster Lexus(Started good but went downhill) and now I drive an hr to Longo Lexus which has the best damn service and aftermarket mod policy out there
MB has the name and that would be my only reason to buy one. As I said earlier, I was looking into a C32 and still don't understand why MB went backwards and went with a V configuration. I don't really understand why they're still using SOHC...emissions issue?
#107
Originally posted by Chan
But can any BMW or MB 6 cylinder do that? I know the E46 M3 cannot.
But can any BMW or MB 6 cylinder do that? I know the E46 M3 cannot.
Just because it wasn't designed for extreme durability doesn't mean that it's a poor design or can't be built for incredible durability. They're just not the same thing. If you are looking for examples of engines that can take such power, there is an S52 M Coupe engine that does 600 hp. And there's an E39 M5 that's doing roughly 600 hp -- it's still being tested. It doesn't prove anything, though ... I mean, if the Lexus cupholders are stronger than the MB ones, does it mean that they have better engineering? Or just that they overbuilt them?
Originally posted by Accord
With enough money, anything is possible.
BMW has shunned M3 owners from driving hard, AMG does just the opposite.
With enough money, anything is possible.
BMW has shunned M3 owners from driving hard, AMG does just the opposite.
#108
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 11
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
Originally posted by marauder
I'm not sure what you mean by that comment ... Did I miss something? You're not proposing that MBs are sportier, more performance oriented machines than BMWs for comparable cars, are you?
I'm not sure what you mean by that comment ... Did I miss something? You're not proposing that MBs are sportier, more performance oriented machines than BMWs for comparable cars, are you?
Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.
#109
I wouldn't say the E46 M3 was a well engineered car...I think about 50 of them blew their engines stock.
The 2JZ family of engines are over-engineered and also well engineered for N/A. Do remember that this a 10yr old engine and 225hp was very good back then. 0-60 and MPG would improve drastically if they swapped out the iron block for an aluminum but that would F the whole over-engineering process up....
Now would someone please explain to me why MB went backward to V6? Just don't tell me they make more power on it cause I can already see that
I want to know what advantages besides space saving V6s have over I6s.
The 2JZ family of engines are over-engineered and also well engineered for N/A. Do remember that this a 10yr old engine and 225hp was very good back then. 0-60 and MPG would improve drastically if they swapped out the iron block for an aluminum but that would F the whole over-engineering process up....
Now would someone please explain to me why MB went backward to V6? Just don't tell me they make more power on it cause I can already see that
I want to know what advantages besides space saving V6s have over I6s.
#110
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 11
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
They never went backwards, they have always used V6's. The engine is a tuned version of the C320's engine, not a completely new engine.
#111
With regard to the V/I6 debate, I think Chan is referring to the I6 that used to be used in 320 models, i.e., the '96-'97 E320's. '98 was the first year for the new "Modular V6/V8" as the V8 in the E420, S420, etc., were also replaced with the 430 engine. Using a V-6 apparently allows the simplification of the manufacturing process since they also build a similar V-8.
At the time, I recall talking to an MB tech, who was disappointed with the new engines. Told me something about how the M119 4.2 Liter V8 was bulletproof, was used in some race vehicle for some 24 hour race (don't think it was Le Mans, but could have been) twin-turboed to 600 bhp and was reliable the whole time. Don't remember his arguments, but he said the new 3-valve/cylinder engines were just another step in MB's cost cutting, and man, he almost sounded pissed about it.
Fact of the matter is, MB's philosophy has changed. No longer can they let the engineers solely dictate what products are sold; the bean counters have a huge say. You can thank Lexus for that. Cost has become a bigger issue, and even MB must now cut costs where they can. In my opinion, I think MB is in a transitionary phase, still, and will work out their reliability issues, etc., and continue to make fine vehicles. And that will only get Lexus/BMW to improve their vehicles. In the end, we all get fine cars. Ain't capitalism a grand thing??
At the time, I recall talking to an MB tech, who was disappointed with the new engines. Told me something about how the M119 4.2 Liter V8 was bulletproof, was used in some race vehicle for some 24 hour race (don't think it was Le Mans, but could have been) twin-turboed to 600 bhp and was reliable the whole time. Don't remember his arguments, but he said the new 3-valve/cylinder engines were just another step in MB's cost cutting, and man, he almost sounded pissed about it.
Fact of the matter is, MB's philosophy has changed. No longer can they let the engineers solely dictate what products are sold; the bean counters have a huge say. You can thank Lexus for that. Cost has become a bigger issue, and even MB must now cut costs where they can. In my opinion, I think MB is in a transitionary phase, still, and will work out their reliability issues, etc., and continue to make fine vehicles. And that will only get Lexus/BMW to improve their vehicles. In the end, we all get fine cars. Ain't capitalism a grand thing??
#112
Originally posted by Accord
BMW sent a letter to a lot of E46 M3 owners telling them not to bring the car to redline, not take turns hard, etc. They said it will cause extreme premature wear and can result in engine failure and other problems. I know people who have AMG's which are driven hard every day and have over 150,000 miles on them.
Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.
BMW sent a letter to a lot of E46 M3 owners telling them not to bring the car to redline, not take turns hard, etc. They said it will cause extreme premature wear and can result in engine failure and other problems. I know people who have AMG's which are driven hard every day and have over 150,000 miles on them.
Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.
a) the M3 requires proper maintenance
b) proper break-in is a must
c) premium gasoline is required
d) the engine must be warmed up before romping on it
The letter promotes proper care of the car -- it doesn't discourage redline or to take turns hard as you suggest, unless you have a letter somewhere that I haven't seen. I'm sure other M3 owners would love to see it. The M3 is certainly seeing its share of problems, but it's still too early to tell what the problems are. I have the same exact engine as the E46 M3 and no other M Coupes or M Roadsters are seeing the problems that the M3 guys are seeing. So what's the problem? Lots of owners are dying to know ...
I think it's pretty clear that BMWs are definitely sportier than MBs for comparable cars. MB seems to have greater hp for their offering over BMW, but track times show time and time again that BMW turns in a better time. AMGs will probably outperform most garden variety BMWs, but the M versions are the ones that are the fair comparison. The SL55 is a sure winner, but it's not a sports car -- it's an autobahn cruiser. It sure isn't a challenger to, say, a 360 Modena or even a 550/575. Once again, if anyone has a time for the SL55, I'd love to know how it performs on Nordschleife. MB doesn't really pretend to make a sports car either ... they're shooting for the market that wants a luxury car first and some oomph second. It makes for an outstanding combination. BMW simply shoots for a slightly difference mix that emphasizes the performance a bit more.
#113
Originally posted by Accord
BMW sent a letter to a lot of E46 M3 owners telling them not to bring the car to redline, not take turns hard, etc. They said it will cause extreme premature wear and can result in engine failure and other problems. I know people who have AMG's which are driven hard every day and have over 150,000 miles on them.
Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.
BMW sent a letter to a lot of E46 M3 owners telling them not to bring the car to redline, not take turns hard, etc. They said it will cause extreme premature wear and can result in engine failure and other problems. I know people who have AMG's which are driven hard every day and have over 150,000 miles on them.
Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.
I think when one compares an AMG vis a vis the M-division Bimmers, the M cars are more geared towards the track. The AMGs, of course, ar emuch more exclusive: only 500/year as opposed to generally more M's. Nevertheless, until AMG offers a manual or an F1-type tranny, if I were to take a vehicle to the track, I'd take an M5 or an M3 any day.
Having said that, other factors come into play when buying a car, and in the end, I'll be getting an E55.
#114
Originally posted by FC Corp
As a result, regardless of this and that, the MB, especially the 600, demands and receives respect from ALL social classes of life.
The Lexis? No, I don't think so.
As a result, regardless of this and that, the MB, especially the 600, demands and receives respect from ALL social classes of life.
The Lexis? No, I don't think so.
FC Corp, you should work for the MB marketing department. "Demands and receives" respect? Nicely put! Nevertheless, I will have to disagree with you there. I've got several Israeli friends who detest MBs and would never purchase one, for somewhat obvious reasons. I've know some young well-educated folks from Germany who tell me MBs are for "new money, low-class" people. And if you watch the truly rich folks in the U.S., we're talking Rockefeller-level here, you'll see they don't drive MBs either. And how does one respect a car anyway?
I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.
#115
Originally posted by KrispyK
I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.
I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.
#116
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 11
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
I remember reading the letter a while back on DTMPower, it wasn't the same letter that you posted above, marauder.
#117
Originally posted by KrispyK
With regard to the V/I6 debate, I think Chan is referring to the I6 that used to be used in 320 models, i.e., the '96-'97 E320's. '98 was the first year for the new "Modular V6/V8" as the V8 in the E420, S420, etc., were also replaced with the 430 engine. Using a V-6 apparently allows the simplification of the manufacturing process since they also build a similar V-8.
At the time, I recall talking to an MB tech, who was disappointed with the new engines. Told me something about how the M119 4.2 Liter V8 was bulletproof, was used in some race vehicle for some 24 hour race (don't think it was Le Mans, but could have been) twin-turboed to 600 bhp and was reliable the whole time. Don't remember his arguments, but he said the new 3-valve/cylinder engines were just another step in MB's cost cutting, and man, he almost sounded pissed about it.
Fact of the matter is, MB's philosophy has changed. No longer can they let the engineers solely dictate what products are sold; the bean counters have a huge say. You can thank Lexus for that. Cost has become a bigger issue, and even MB must now cut costs where they can. In my opinion, I think MB is in a transitionary phase, still, and will work out their reliability issues, etc., and continue to make fine vehicles. And that will only get Lexus/BMW to improve their vehicles. In the end, we all get fine cars. Ain't capitalism a grand thing??
With regard to the V/I6 debate, I think Chan is referring to the I6 that used to be used in 320 models, i.e., the '96-'97 E320's. '98 was the first year for the new "Modular V6/V8" as the V8 in the E420, S420, etc., were also replaced with the 430 engine. Using a V-6 apparently allows the simplification of the manufacturing process since they also build a similar V-8.
At the time, I recall talking to an MB tech, who was disappointed with the new engines. Told me something about how the M119 4.2 Liter V8 was bulletproof, was used in some race vehicle for some 24 hour race (don't think it was Le Mans, but could have been) twin-turboed to 600 bhp and was reliable the whole time. Don't remember his arguments, but he said the new 3-valve/cylinder engines were just another step in MB's cost cutting, and man, he almost sounded pissed about it.
Fact of the matter is, MB's philosophy has changed. No longer can they let the engineers solely dictate what products are sold; the bean counters have a huge say. You can thank Lexus for that. Cost has become a bigger issue, and even MB must now cut costs where they can. In my opinion, I think MB is in a transitionary phase, still, and will work out their reliability issues, etc., and continue to make fine vehicles. And that will only get Lexus/BMW to improve their vehicles. In the end, we all get fine cars. Ain't capitalism a grand thing??
Reasons? Well here are a few:
None of that V6 gargling crap
Better feel of power(Well at least I feel its better)
Naturally balanced
#118
The M3 has their share of problems, just like every other car, and everyone's been a bit disappointed in BMW's ability to deliver some answers, but let's try to keep the misinformation to a minimum. Accord, I believe you when you say you saw some sort of letter, but I don't trust the post.
A manufacturer, especially BMW, would *never* send out a car telling people not to drive their cars hard. If anything, they would simply void warranties for "abused" cars. Audi/VW has been known to do this in the past. Can you imagine if even Camry owners got letters from Toyota saying that you shouldn't brake very hard?
BMW as a company has been way more encouraging of their owners to drive their cars like they were meant to be driven than most other companies. The BMW M school is an example of that! Imagine picking up your vehicle in South Carolina and driving your pick of the M cars, driving them through car control courses, autocrosses, a road course, and just cruising around in *their* cars. After all that, you get to drive your own car home. You can sign up for an extended M school and pay for it separately.
A manufacturer, especially BMW, would *never* send out a car telling people not to drive their cars hard. If anything, they would simply void warranties for "abused" cars. Audi/VW has been known to do this in the past. Can you imagine if even Camry owners got letters from Toyota saying that you shouldn't brake very hard?
BMW as a company has been way more encouraging of their owners to drive their cars like they were meant to be driven than most other companies. The BMW M school is an example of that! Imagine picking up your vehicle in South Carolina and driving your pick of the M cars, driving them through car control courses, autocrosses, a road course, and just cruising around in *their* cars. After all that, you get to drive your own car home. You can sign up for an extended M school and pay for it separately.
#119
Originally posted by marauder
The M3 has their share of problems, just like every other car, and everyone's been a bit disappointed in BMW's ability to deliver some answers, but let's try to keep the misinformation to a minimum. Accord, I believe you when you say you saw some sort of letter, but I don't trust the post.
A manufacturer, especially BMW, would *never* send out a car telling people not to drive their cars hard. If anything, they would simply void warranties for "abused" cars. Audi/VW has been known to do this in the past. Can you imagine if even Camry owners got letters from Toyota saying that you shouldn't brake very hard?
BMW as a company has been way more encouraging of their owners to drive their cars like they were meant to be driven than most other companies. The BMW M school is an example of that! Imagine picking up your vehicle in South Carolina and driving your pick of the M cars, driving them through car control courses, autocrosses, a road course, and just cruising around in *their* cars. After all that, you get to drive your own car home. You can sign up for an extended M school and pay for it separately.
The M3 has their share of problems, just like every other car, and everyone's been a bit disappointed in BMW's ability to deliver some answers, but let's try to keep the misinformation to a minimum. Accord, I believe you when you say you saw some sort of letter, but I don't trust the post.
A manufacturer, especially BMW, would *never* send out a car telling people not to drive their cars hard. If anything, they would simply void warranties for "abused" cars. Audi/VW has been known to do this in the past. Can you imagine if even Camry owners got letters from Toyota saying that you shouldn't brake very hard?
BMW as a company has been way more encouraging of their owners to drive their cars like they were meant to be driven than most other companies. The BMW M school is an example of that! Imagine picking up your vehicle in South Carolina and driving your pick of the M cars, driving them through car control courses, autocrosses, a road course, and just cruising around in *their* cars. After all that, you get to drive your own car home. You can sign up for an extended M school and pay for it separately.
#120
Originally posted by KrispyK
I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.
I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.
#122
Originally posted by marauder
Moment of weakness? Nah, it's a stroke of genius!
Moment of weakness? Nah, it's a stroke of genius!
(Before anyone thinks I'm flaming him, Marauder and I are close friends in real life ... but not that close because he drives a Bimmer. :P)
#123
It's interesting. I also saw threads where were discussed LS430 vs Q45 and Infiniti won. In another thread Q45 compared to Cadillac DTS and former won. So, should we compare S with DTS?
#124
Originally posted by FC Corp
Ok, calm down now. I said the CAR demands respect, did not mention anything about the driver.
Ok, calm down now. I said the CAR demands respect, did not mention anything about the driver.
Sorry to be nitpicking, but I take issue with the way people use the word "respect" these days. I fully appreciate and enjoy MB vehicles; I'm sure we agree that MBs are fine automobiles. But respect them? Nah. Not me.
#125
Originally posted by Dema
It's interesting. I also saw threads where were discussed LS430 vs Q45 and Infiniti won. In another thread Q45 compared to Cadillac DTS and former won. So, should we compare S with DTS?
It's interesting. I also saw threads where were discussed LS430 vs Q45 and Infiniti won. In another thread Q45 compared to Cadillac DTS and former won. So, should we compare S with DTS?
By the way, recently I got a ride in an '03 Town Car; didn't get to drive it but I have to say, at least from the backseat, the car handled much much better than previous models. Shall we compare that to MBs as well?