M275 Coil Pack Conversion
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S55 AMG
That's really upsetting that AMG will stop making V12s...
There is nothing wrong about the engine itself, its pretty bulletproof. It's just everything around it and attached to it that always fails, and the cost of keeping it running because of those faults tend to create the illusion that the engine is unreliable. Main culprits being the ignition system and suspension. I love this powertrain, I've driven many cars and nothing compares to it, but it definitely has faults. Hopefully all of those faults were eliminated in the new models, which seems to be the case so far. Looking forward to getting an M279 in a few years.
There is nothing wrong about the engine itself, its pretty bulletproof. It's just everything around it and attached to it that always fails, and the cost of keeping it running because of those faults tend to create the illusion that the engine is unreliable. Main culprits being the ignition system and suspension. I love this powertrain, I've driven many cars and nothing compares to it, but it definitely has faults. Hopefully all of those faults were eliminated in the new models, which seems to be the case so far. Looking forward to getting an M279 in a few years.
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From: Welwyn, Herts, UK
2006 S600
All cars have their faults.
It just happens that the weaknesses on the M275 are frustrating but relatively benign and manageable.
Owners of other up-market cars curse them just as much as we do, if not more.
Nick
It just happens that the weaknesses on the M275 are frustrating but relatively benign and manageable.
Owners of other up-market cars curse them just as much as we do, if not more.
Nick
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Mercedes
The m120 up to 1996 had way more problems than the M275, stemming from biodegradable wiring that necessitated new throttle actuators and engine wiring harnesses , these m120 repairs cost more then a double coil and voltage transformer replacement in the M275
only the 1997 and later m120 were trouble free once the problems were worked out - just like the m279 has likely Addressed the problems of the M275
only the 1997 and later m120 were trouble free once the problems were worked out - just like the m279 has likely Addressed the problems of the M275
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S55 AMG
The biodegradable harness during that era affected all cars, not just the M120, so its not an engine-specific problem like coil packs are to a m275. It would be a nightmare if that weren't the case. Imagine every Mercedes from the early 2000s had the same ignition system....
I actually recall having a dream where my W140 S500 had the same stupid coil packs and it was the most disturbing thing ever. Glad I woke up from that. Lol
But yes overall its good to see that these issues finally have been addressed, its just sad to see how it took them 2 generations to sort the ignition issue, especially when they sorted the 90s wiring harness issue only within the same generation. Despite all the TTV12s isues, I would still take it over the M120 because of its power advantage and nicer sound.
I actually recall having a dream where my W140 S500 had the same stupid coil packs and it was the most disturbing thing ever. Glad I woke up from that. Lol
But yes overall its good to see that these issues finally have been addressed, its just sad to see how it took them 2 generations to sort the ignition issue, especially when they sorted the 90s wiring harness issue only within the same generation. Despite all the TTV12s isues, I would still take it over the M120 because of its power advantage and nicer sound.
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2 W204 C63 M157 Swap, W212 E63S, W215 CL65&CL55, W204 C63 507, W219 CLS55 Brabus, 2 CLK55 M113K, E55
Speaking about ignition and maybe little bit off the main topic, spark plugs, I have replaced all the SP and coilpack but still unfortunately I get misfiring at almost redline on 2nd gear.
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
Last edited by AMG Lover, KRK; Jul 6, 2018 at 06:36 PM.
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Mercedes
Speaking about ignition and maybe little bit off the mail topic, spark plugs, I have replaced all the SP and coilpack but still unfortunately I get misfiring at almost redline on 2nd gear.
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
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W215 CL65
Speaking about ignition and maybe little bit off the main topic, spark plugs, I have replaced all the SP and coilpack but still unfortunately I get misfiring at almost redline on 2nd gear.
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
Is the spark plugs, when I buy it from mercedes, come with the correct gapping or do I need to gap them into certain measurement?
There are obviously various reasons that you could be experiencing this so check vacuum lines and fuel pressure first (easy stuff). I know there was one case posted here on the forum where a guy with an sl65 had a weak valve spring that caused a misfire that no one could fix. But that is rare so I suggest you start with easy stuff first.
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W215 CL65
It looks like that function can be bypassed with some ecu tuning, since speeddriven was able to do it. It is totally possible as you can see from the video that they put out, but I have no knowledge about ecu tuning and actually have no idea how easy it is to trick the computer to bypass the stock coil packs. If someone here is an expert on ecu tuning then they would help us out a lot on this matter.
Also, what did you do that made your original coil packs last so long? I've never heard of those going that far, let alone half of what you said. I just replaced mine with good used units that had only 20k miles on them 2 years ago and they already failed on me.
Also, what did you do that made your original coil packs last so long? I've never heard of those going that far, let alone half of what you said. I just replaced mine with good used units that had only 20k miles on them 2 years ago and they already failed on me.
I would say that if your coilpacks only lasted that long that there is some other issue. Are you sure they had that many miles? Did you change the ignition transformer? Were the spark pugs new? Did you replace all of the red insulators?
Large gap on old spark plugs is harder on the coil packs as is an old ignition transformer. Cracks in the red insulators causes spark jumping between insulator and will damage the coil packs. This is one piece on WIS that I follow every time: Mercedes procedure is to replace all red insulators every time you remove a coilpack.
As for how long m275 are running, there are plenty of examples of high mileage cars. There is a member here on the board that has a cl65 that went 225k miles. He had a stuck injector that caused issues at that point.
For reference, just checked pricing on the m279 coilpacks and they are $200 a piece and there are 6 on each side. So $1200 for one side. I know that there is a benefit that if one fails you just change one but they are not cheap and they only fit the m279/m277 so I do not expect super cheap aftermarket parts here.
Last edited by MooksM275; Jul 16, 2018 at 04:34 AM.
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SL55, Opel GT, 70 LT-1, BMW 745 turbo, MRoadster, 49 Stude truck, 69 Z/28, Ferrari project
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LS400
So lets see some good wiring schematics of the ignition system. Does it have a pulse amplifier, or sometimes called igniter? Voltage transformer so that will only work with ac or pulsating dc, so what is its function for the ignition system? Note: a coil is a transformer. I'd like to help figure out the problem.
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S55 AMG
So lets see some good wiring schematics of the ignition system. Does it have a pulse amplifier, or sometimes called igniter? Voltage transformer so that will only work with ac or pulsating dc, so what is its function for the ignition system? Note: a coil is a transformer. I'd like to help figure out the problem.
http://fotifixes.com/M275-initial-training.pdf
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LS400
It does look like a very fun mess. This place does have some videos of what is inside the coil pack units. http://www.v12icpack.com/
I also read that there are still normal knock sensors just for 275 engine.It is a system that maintains the spark discharge at the spark plug for a certain amount of time, unlike old normal spark ignition systems that fire once. It is like many electronic things, it looks like a good idea until it breaks.
I'm still going to spend some study time on this. Any kind of change in the system will mean changing the power supply and the ignition modules.
I wish we had a training pdf on the M113 system to compare.
It would really be nice to see the pin outs for the connectors for all those components and description of their functions, that is what is needed the most.
I did some editing to my first post of this because I took more time studying. I thought there was a combustion knock feed back but that is only for the 137 engine.
I also read that there are still normal knock sensors just for 275 engine.It is a system that maintains the spark discharge at the spark plug for a certain amount of time, unlike old normal spark ignition systems that fire once. It is like many electronic things, it looks like a good idea until it breaks.
I'm still going to spend some study time on this. Any kind of change in the system will mean changing the power supply and the ignition modules.
I wish we had a training pdf on the M113 system to compare.
It would really be nice to see the pin outs for the connectors for all those components and description of their functions, that is what is needed the most.
I did some editing to my first post of this because I took more time studying. I thought there was a combustion knock feed back but that is only for the 137 engine.
Last edited by exhaustgases; Aug 9, 2018 at 10:19 PM. Reason: added info about 137 engine and knock sensing
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2003 CL 600
So you guys are really gonna spend 3k to avoid spending 2k? I don't see the point here. The replacement coils should be a one-time thing. I know it's not the best system, but don't re-invent the wheel, it works well when the parts are in good working order, just install a pair of new coils and drive the car for another 15 years. Going through all the work needed to re-wire, move things around, coding, programming, sensor trickery, just to replace 3 parts with 12? Seems backwards.
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LS400
So you guys are really gonna spend 3k to avoid spending 2k? I don't see the point here. The replacement coils should be a one-time thing. I know it's not the best system, but don't re-invent the wheel, it works well when the parts are in good working order, just install a pair of new coils and drive the car for another 15 years. Going through all the work needed to re-wire, move things around, coding, programming, sensor trickery, just to replace 3 parts with 12? Seems backwards.
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I agree with you, because the only easy way to accomplish this would be to go to a mega squirt system, for most folks that is not worth it. For the non tech type sending the modules to that one outfit for repair would be the best cost effective route. Or get some after market parts if they are still available. Even to run with a stand alone controller, (which an automatic transmission would also need if the engine had one), there is still the issue of what to use to reach the spark plugs, you could use some after market coils then, you would lose tons of other functionality of the car by pretty much disabling the CAN system.
Speeddriven did it with a Syvecs 12 standalone, but the ECU alone is 10k, not mentioning the harness and obviously custom tuning/install you will need. It allows factory level functionality with full control, but that's not the goal here. This is people that really can't afford to drive a V12 Benz because of the maintenance costs, dreaming about fixing it for $100 when something breaks. Sadly, that's not the way it goes with this platform. Pay to play in the extreme.
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S55 AMG
It's not about having enough money to afford maintaining a V12 mercedes or not. If the conversion is possible you are still paying the same amount as fixing the original system.
It just makes more sense to have a more sensible system that is much easier to maintain and much less of a PITA when working with it. Misfires will no longer be an issue because one misfire will not ruin the entire rest of the system, which happens to be this system's major weakness. It is annoying for one misfire to go and take down the rest of the system with it, almost like a kamikaze. Dealing with them individually in the affected areas rather than having to deal with other areas that are not affected at all will save a lot of time and money after such a conversion is complete.
However, knowing how complicated these cars are, it is going to be difficult for such a conversion process. And if it proves to be much more expensive and much more of a headache than just simply dealing with its poorly designed ignition system from the factory, then obviously its not worth it.
It just makes more sense to have a more sensible system that is much easier to maintain and much less of a PITA when working with it. Misfires will no longer be an issue because one misfire will not ruin the entire rest of the system, which happens to be this system's major weakness. It is annoying for one misfire to go and take down the rest of the system with it, almost like a kamikaze. Dealing with them individually in the affected areas rather than having to deal with other areas that are not affected at all will save a lot of time and money after such a conversion is complete.
However, knowing how complicated these cars are, it is going to be difficult for such a conversion process. And if it proves to be much more expensive and much more of a headache than just simply dealing with its poorly designed ignition system from the factory, then obviously its not worth it.
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2003 CL 600
It's not about having enough money to afford maintaining a V12 mercedes or not. If the conversion is possible you are still paying the same amount as fixing the original system.
It just makes more sense to have a more sensible system that is much easier to maintain and much less of a PITA when working with it. Misfires will no longer be an issue because one misfire will not ruin the entire rest of the system, which happens to be this system's major weakness. It is annoying for one misfire to go and take down the rest of the system with it, almost like a kamikaze. Dealing with them individually in the affected areas rather than having to deal with other areas that are not affected at all will save a lot of time and money after such a conversion is complete.
However, knowing how complicated these cars are, it is going to be difficult for such a conversion process. And if it proves to be much more expensive and much more of a headache than just simply dealing with its poorly designed ignition system from the factory, then obviously its not worth it.
It just makes more sense to have a more sensible system that is much easier to maintain and much less of a PITA when working with it. Misfires will no longer be an issue because one misfire will not ruin the entire rest of the system, which happens to be this system's major weakness. It is annoying for one misfire to go and take down the rest of the system with it, almost like a kamikaze. Dealing with them individually in the affected areas rather than having to deal with other areas that are not affected at all will save a lot of time and money after such a conversion is complete.
However, knowing how complicated these cars are, it is going to be difficult for such a conversion process. And if it proves to be much more expensive and much more of a headache than just simply dealing with its poorly designed ignition system from the factory, then obviously its not worth it.
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LS400
MS doesn't have the strength needed to run this engine and interface with the rest of the car. If you take the M/E off the CAN, you might as well throw the car in the garbage, nothing works anymore.
Speeddriven did it with a Syvecs 12 standalone, but the ECU alone is 10k, not mentioning the harness and obviously custom tuning/install you will need. It allows factory level functionality with full control, but that's not the goal here. This is people that really can't afford to drive a V12 Benz because of the maintenance costs, dreaming about fixing it for $100 when something breaks. Sadly, that's not the way it goes with this platform. Pay to play in the extreme.
Speeddriven did it with a Syvecs 12 standalone, but the ECU alone is 10k, not mentioning the harness and obviously custom tuning/install you will need. It allows factory level functionality with full control, but that's not the goal here. This is people that really can't afford to drive a V12 Benz because of the maintenance costs, dreaming about fixing it for $100 when something breaks. Sadly, that's not the way it goes with this platform. Pay to play in the extreme.
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2003 CL 600
All this you said, I said already didn't you read what I said? With a controller it is not a strength issue, it is "will it work on a V12" that is all that is to worry about. And I said you would lose all functionality of the car. I agreed just live with the crappy expensive system they put on it. The time to worry is when the parts are no longer available. But then all wealthy MB owners will say get rid of it then.
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C55 AMG, SLK55 AMG, S600, Porsche 911, Jaguar XJR, Toyota Hilux SRV
That's really upsetting that AMG will stop making V12s...
There is nothing wrong about the engine itself, its pretty bulletproof. It's just everything around it and attached to it that always fails, and the cost of keeping it running because of those faults tend to create the illusion that the engine is unreliable. Main culprits being the ignition system and suspension. I love this powertrain, I've driven many cars and nothing compares to it, but it definitely has faults. Hopefully all of those faults were eliminated in the new models, which seems to be the case so far. Looking forward to getting an M279 in a few years.
There is nothing wrong about the engine itself, its pretty bulletproof. It's just everything around it and attached to it that always fails, and the cost of keeping it running because of those faults tend to create the illusion that the engine is unreliable. Main culprits being the ignition system and suspension. I love this powertrain, I've driven many cars and nothing compares to it, but it definitely has faults. Hopefully all of those faults were eliminated in the new models, which seems to be the case so far. Looking forward to getting an M279 in a few years.
We have used coils from GM cars in 1200hp+ Porsche Flat-6 Engines, F1 engines like superbike coils and so on. I've been evaluating this as I'd like to get a CL65 sometime in the future, I like making stuff for the cars I own and as an Engineer I like solving issues.
Also nothing wrong in wanting to make a car more reliable, that just makes it more enjoyable!
Last edited by ChristianRGR; Oct 27, 2019 at 11:39 PM.
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It can be done, at work we do it all the time. We build Porsche 934s 935s and 962s. We also work in Indycars, F1 Cars, any racecar you can imagine. A lot of these engines have no road-car variants, and obviously there are no parts available for these engines, where you are going to find a coil for a Porsche 3.5 F1 V12, in cases like that we just look up the specs, measure our area and just get one that will work, we do the wiring and that's it. We replace ECU's, dyno tune the engines etc... quite regularly. At the end of the day an engine is just that, an engine they all work the same way.
We have used coils from GM cars in 1200hp+ Porsche Flat-6 Engines, F1 engines like superbike coils and so on. I've been evaluating this as I'd like to get a CL65 sometime in the future, I like making stuff for the cars I own and as an Engineer I like solving issues.
Also nothing wrong in wanting to make a car more reliable, that just makes it more enjoyable!
We have used coils from GM cars in 1200hp+ Porsche Flat-6 Engines, F1 engines like superbike coils and so on. I've been evaluating this as I'd like to get a CL65 sometime in the future, I like making stuff for the cars I own and as an Engineer I like solving issues.
Also nothing wrong in wanting to make a car more reliable, that just makes it more enjoyable!
this is really a non issue apart from cheap skates buying used $150k cars for $5000 and not having $3000 left over for eventual repairs
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Even if the coils could be had at a good price, the problem remains, having to take all of them just to fix one IS A PROBLEM, them failing often compared to "regular" vehicles IS A PROBLEM. This is not about who has money and who hasn't, this is a matter of improving something that could use some improvement and that's it.
I hope that what I said can help whoever is interested in fixing this issue once and for all, if any of you are around the Indianapolis area, I'd love to help out, since is something that I will definitely work on whenever I get my hands on a V12 Merc.
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It would be great if someone could improve it , but really the issue is blown out of proportion because people who buy $5000 cars can’t afford $2000-3000 repairs . Then they curse the car
The original owners who paid $150k can easily afford such a repair and understand those kinds of repair bills are common on $150k cars . these cars might be $5000 now but they still have the repair costs of a $150k car.
The original owners who paid $150k can easily afford such a repair and understand those kinds of repair bills are common on $150k cars . these cars might be $5000 now but they still have the repair costs of a $150k car.
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It would be great if someone could improve it , but really the issue is blown out of proportion because people who buy $5000 cars can’t afford $2000-3000 repairs . Then they curse the car
The original owners who paid $150k can easily afford such a repair and understand those kinds of repair bills are common on $150k cars . these cars might be $5000 now but they still have the repair costs of a $150k car.
The original owners who paid $150k can easily afford such a repair and understand those kinds of repair bills are common on $150k cars . these cars might be $5000 now but they still have the repair costs of a $150k car.
