Fried Chicken

Shame on you, pussies.

The ABC system is an automotive great that stands apart from 99.99% of cars on the road.
You coward *****es just ruined your cars b/c you hopped onto the coward bandwagon.

Shame yon you.

tusabes

Welwynnick

Completely agree with the sentiment (though I think that most people with ABC will never know just how good it is).

Completely disagree with the choice of words - that will just start a flame war.

I don't think it's really fair to blame MB's innocent guinea pigs (us) for their short-sightedness and head-in-the-sand philosophy. MB's position is that ABC needs no maintenance, and it hasn't been designed with maintainability in mind. Those are both tragic mistakes that MB made. There are ways to get round them, but it shouldn't really have been necessary. For example we all know that the oil and filter need periodic replacement. Also - flexible brake hoses can be replaced in a few minutes with just a couple of spanners - ABC hoses should be the same. And they should all be visible for inspection and accessible for replacement. It's difficult not to go on and on.

In spite of the uphill effort, you won't tear me away from my S600 though. I've got it running how I want it (though it's taken years to get there) and it's really working rather magically. I always envisaged that it could play the part of the iron fist in the velvet glove, and on reasonable roads it does exactly that. I only got there by going away from staggered wheels and tires though. With stock wheels it really isn't much fun to drive, and hides ABC true potential IMNVHO.

I've spend years persuading people about the importance of preventative maintenance, avoiding MB dealers, and ditching staggered wheels. I have to accept that the message won't be heard everywhere, but it only makes appreciate what I've got.

Nick

prs600

My experience has been very similar to Nick's. Restoring the ABC system in my car has taken a couple of years, but once you have it in operational prime, nothing else comes close! I have taken my time with it as my car is not a daily driver, but the journey of healing the ABC suspension has been a very rewarding learning experience. Over the past two and a half years my car has had the ABC pump (was unable to sustain pressure), both rear struts (were leaking), a couple of leaky lines replaced and I rebuilt both valve blocks. Made a mistake with the first rebuild, so had to do it twice. Next, all accumulators were replaced and this substantially transformed the handling - the car became very tight and precise with fresh accumulators. The difference before these repairs and after, is expectedly, night and day!

The single largest change in drive characteristics was caused by new accumulators. In my view, the efforts of fully restoring the ABC system are well worth it, and without taking care of each component one can simply not realise the full potential of this wonderful system. When I am driving or riding a non-ABC car, I can feel and appreciate the advantages of ABC. In the beginning, the system did seem complex but excellent and very encouraging write-ups from Nick, Howard and other members have helped understand the system better. I believe knowledge of how the system works, and best practices w.r.t. preventive maintenance are key to keeping ABC in top shape. The only issue left for me to diagnose is the intermittent low frequency 'tumbling' sound I occasionally hear from the area of the rear valve block after a long drive (not even sure that this is ABC related, the fuel pump/filter is also close by).

In summary, my experience is that although ABC can occasionally involve expensive repairs (e.g., the struts leaking, pump going kaput), but with the right knowledge, skills and attitude, one can manage the spend better. Of course, what one expects from one's car is also a factor - I do not mind the quirks of the system as what it gives back to me is worth much more to me.

Fried Chicken

Mechanics, forum members, random people, youtubists: they talked doom and gloom about the ABC system.
It pisses me off. So much unnecessary stress and fear, people treat the system like some spooky voodoo she-witch.

It's a 60 year old system invented by Citroën in 1955 that was built on technology known to the ancient Greeks.

All you *****es that put coilovers.... shame on you.

Nick, what does removing the staggered setup do? Do you keep the rear or front sizes? Do you need to buy new wheels, or are they the same size?

Welwynnick

They key thing is to fit rear wheels and tires to the front.

At first I tried 265/40/18 all round. Great improvement on stock - balance, agility, grip, steering etc.
Then I went to 275/35/19 all round. Incremental improvement in grip at some cost in ride.
Finally settled on 275/30/20 all round. The extreme solution.

I tried lots of other wheel & tire combos, and they didn't work - either didn't fit, or spoiled the ride & handling.

With a square configuration the car flows down the road, going where you point it, when you point it. Staggered wheels are just miserable in comparison. Because ABC keeps the tires flat on the ground at all times, yet still permits the wheels to follow bumps without being hindered by stiff suspension, it corners very hard and very fast without understeering or oversteering or being thrown off line by pumps. The best thing is it feels like you can change direction like a much lighter car, yet without losing ride or stability. It doesn't become tail-happy. It feels like what it SHOULD feel like.

Nick

AlexMercedes

Let me remind you all that none of these cars are worth more than 10 grand, with a system, if totally failed, worth as much as the car itself. The system is amazing when working perfectly but if it fails, which it often does, especially leaving someone totally stranded and with thousands of dollars worth of repairs, there is absolutely no reason to fix it. The options you're left with is to either junk the car or save it by putting it on something that never requires maintenance, never fails, and never will. If you're rich enough to fix the entire system when it catastrophically fails then why are you driving a 15 year old car? Why are you not in the brand new S-class with the brand new ABC? It doesn't make sense to me.

I know a few incredible people with incredible mechanic skills such as g60wall and TenZero on these forums who have converted their ABC to coilovers with such perfection and success. The way the OP talks about these people makes me feel like this man was bullied in school by a sentient kit of coilovers or something.

Welwynnick

Fair points for a pragmatic approach, but I think there are answers to all of them.

If you follow MB's approach, ABC is simply not viable on older cars, but coil-overs aren't MB's approach either. There are better ways. If you treat ABC hoses, filters and fluids as consumables, and pumps and valves as repairables, then you can keep the costs down. Although I've owned two cars with ABC that were no trouble at all, I think I've had more than my fair share of problems with my first V12TT. Yet I've spent far less on preventative and remedial measures than a coil-over conversion would have cost. These days a failed pump is £300, a used strut is £200, a hose repair is £30 and a valve block is a few pounds.

Of course if you need to rely on someone else to do all that for you, then a cutting-edge 15 year old luxury flagship probably isn't the right car for you anyway.

The W220 is simply too old and too complicated to be easy to maintain, and I don't actually enjoy the uphill effort of keeping them on the road any more. I want to do the easy things like fluids, filters, washing, polishing, driving etc. I'd have a W221 in a shot if it wasn't for the butt-ugly rear end and the dog's dinner of an interior. I recognise the strengths and weaknesses of both cars, but I just can't bring myself to do without the W220's simple elegance inside and out. I never tire of looking at it, or driving.

Nick

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

Listen, of course the ABC is better.

But before talking like **** to people you don't know, did you try to understand that
- some people can afford paying thousands to MB dealers
- others like me spend time on HP and grip only
and so on

Maybe you fried you brains too when doing your chicken, but from now on give your opinion without insults

Astro14

Taking the ABC off the car to replace it with coil-overs is like taking the turbos off the M275.

Sure, if you're on a budget and you bought this as a cheap car, then that mod (or butchery) can keep you on the road at a cost of thousands of dollars, which is marginally cheaper than the cost of a proper repair.

But you've compromised the capability of the car by installing coil-overs. You've got the same powertrain, but not the same car.

I've done lots of ABC work: valve blocks, lines, a strut and several fluid changes. ABC works like a dream and the car handles like it was intended.

I've spent less than the cost of a coil-over kit in the course of 7 years of ownership, and I've still got the car that Mercedes intended. I'm sorry if your budget, or lack of skills, forces you to accept less in compromise.

pmercury

iTrader: (2)

Mercedes didn't removed this system from it's cars for Airmatic because it was so good

PrometheusFD3S

I really like tat you went through the effort to square up your tire specs, it is a HUGE quality of life step, that I think a lot of people miss, when building cars.

I have a RX7 & on a squared setup, it handles like its on RAILS, but with my staggers setup, its is INCREDIBLY SWITCHY.

PrometheusFD3S

I'm mostly looking for comfort streetable handling (S65 is nearly 5K pounds) so its not a car I plan on shredding canyons or tracking.

but I want it t o be LOW & not breakdown all the time.

I have other cars for handling.

My s65 is mostly just for fun cruising.

paste

Weird. The SL65 Black Series must use a coilver setup beacsue coilovers are garbage.

Astro14

You resurrected a four+ year old thread, just to make your mis-spelled point? Really?

Has it occurred to you that there is a difference between aftermarket W220 coil-overs and factory Mercedes R230 coil overs? I mean, aside from the chassis differences, there is a quality difference. So, I really don’t see how your point has any relevance.

paste

Fried Chicken

I might have been drunk when I made this thread 😅

Kebowers47

Well, I am just a xxxxy I guess. When I gave up last fall and went to coilovers from the ABC system, I was sad. I really liked the system, but a couple of flex hose failures got to me. Started with the right rear accumulator hose at @$200 + hoiurs and hours of labor (mine.) before I gave up and dropped the entire rear subframe, and exhaust system. Then I realized I had a never-ending problem. It was not 100 miles later the LEFT side flex to the strut failed. Drop subframe and get me to a hydraulic shop. Cost was only $80 + lots less labor. Then I suffered a shock when I realized ALL the flex lines were going to require replacement ASAP. The moisture barrier rubber jacket MBZ used was cracking all over everywhere, and the double layer steel reinforcing mesh was RUSTING and turning brittle and soon would fail. The car HAD BEEN a Montery Ca car with 99000 miles but absolutely no rust anywhere. However relocating to Houston was a death sentence for the 'now unprotected' steel reinforcment. I figured I could manage the replacement in about a month of work and $1500 for the hydraulic shop manufacture of replacement hoses. I am 75 years old and reasonably fit and competent as a DIY mechanic, Mercedes familiar. Then I seriousaly figured what my future costs for the ABC system were likely for the next 10 years. I planned on replacing the boots on all 4 struts to make them last as long as possible. I had no ideal when either the seals or extension measuring sensor would fail. Surely some other sensors would fail--I figured $2000 for them all. Doing my labor for 5 more years then shop work. I figured $4000 for first year repairs od hoses and accumulators and then $2000 a year for strut reserve and miscellaneous parts--including pump failure So the $24,000 total cost was just too much for my now limited income. I installed the strut-overs, but do miss the ride and performance of the ABC system.

SO, call me weakling or zxczxczxc but I am a realist (chemical engieneer, project manager.)



EX ABC

paste

I have had the Yellowspeed coilovers on my car for almost a year. I installed sway bars on both the front and rear when I did the conversion. I like the way the car drives during the more spirited maneuvers than I did when I had the ABC. When moving slow through parking lots, I experience a rather unpleasant bounciness that I just have to live with. I also experience a clunking sound that seems to be related to the sway bar on the front. I have yet to eliminate the sound but it doesn't seem to negatively affect the driving dynamics of the car. I still have all of the ABC stuff, including shocks, pump, and the lines that had to be removed in order to make way for the sway bar in the front. My ABC was leaking and in the morning I would go outside and the car would be sitting on top of the wheels. I had fixed it by replacing the seals in the valve blocks and replacing the accumulators but after a few months, it was leaking again. I can fix it but I started to feel like I was spending more on hydraulic fluid then actual parts. I got tired of working on the car and having that stuff get all over me as I don't have a lift, and am doing this under a car that is lifted onto jack stands. I bought my car with aftermarket stereo already installed, so as far as keeping it 100% original, well it's already beyond that and I'm not the one who took the OEM virginity.

*edit- Slower maneuvers is where the benefits of ABC where much more noticeable.

Astro14

Big difference between a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis like @Kebowers47 has done, and a blanket "ABC sux" condemnation.

I understand the pain points, as the owner of two, repeat, TWO, ABC cars.

But I have different factors - a shop, for example, in which I can leave the car for months, if needed, while I work through the problem. And a few other cars that can be used in the meantime. So, I am not ready to give up on ABC in either car.

Michael Camron

Is it possible to get this conversion done on a W221 S500?


is

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https://yellowspeedracingusa.com/pro...s-s-class-w221

Scallawalla

To those who say that the ABC suspension is reliable, what do you mean by that? I am hearing people imply that reliability means that if you do preventive maintenance, then, the ABC suspension will be less likely to fail. That's great. But let's consider not only how often it may fail, but also how badly it can fail. In other words, worst case. This is why I am considering coilovers. Because the worst case failure mode is night and day.

I want to be able to drive my car all over without worrying that I may blow an ABC hose in the middle of the desert and be forced to tow. For me, that's a big part of reliability.

paste

I recently got 19" wheels on my car and I have had coilovers on it for a few years. I was kind of annoyed with the floaty feeling at lower speeds but I've got to say that now with the slightly bigger wheel and lower profile tire, the car feels more planted. I've always had some issues with the suspension on this car, whether it was the leaky ABC system that I fixed three times with the span of one year before saying I've had enough, or being unsatisfied with the choice of coilover and the mediocre ride quality they provide.

I saw an immaculate W220 S65 in La Jolla a few months ago. I didn't talk to the owner but I just imagine he paid to keep up with maintenance over the years either at the dealer or with a good indy shop based on the appearance of the car. When I bought my car, the stereo has already been replaced with aftermarket stuff, and I was recently involved in an accident where finding replacement parts was difficult given the age. The purists don't believe in changing anything from OEM, but unless the car sits in a garage and is hardly ever driven, good luck finding parts to replace certain things when they break.

​​​​The ABC suspension can experience catastrophic failure, although it is less likely to if maintenance is kept up with on it. Coilovers are not going to ride the same as the ABC, especially given the limited selection available, so just be prepared for that. If you plan on driving the car a lot, then I would say they are worth it. I'd rather see other cars on coilovers instead of the car laying frame due to a busted suspension in someone's front yard.

Scallawalla

Ride quality is subjective. It may not be the same. But that's not necessarily bad. The SL55 ride with ABC is probably closer to a Cadillac than a BMW, but with coilovers, it's probably closer to a BMW than a Cadillac. I used to drive a BMW 645 and I liked the suspension conveying the feel of the road to the driver. I also compared the E series with the C series. The E series ride is more luxurious but it felt like autopilot where the car was doing all the work and I was just pointing it. Couldn't feel the road. On the other hand, the C series felt more connected to the road where I was the pilot not the car. I preferred the C series because even though the E series felt more luxurious, the C series was more fun to drive. I am seeing the ABC vs coilovers in the same way. ABC may be more luxurious (when working optimally) whereas coilovers are more fun (always).

You said that you were unsatisfied with the choice of coilovers. Which ones? I decided not to go with the entry level ones because I heard mixed reviews. I understand people are happy with the VVK coilover kit (includes power steering pump, sway bars and hardware), and didn't hear a single complaint, so that's the one I chose. They are made in American and Sean is knowledgeable and helpful.

Honestly, I can't say what the ABC truly feels like. Because I bought the SL with blown accumulators (unknowingly). That may be a blessing in disguise. Because it's only going to get better now. Regardless, as you can guess by now, I am not in the purist camp. I bought the car to enjoy it not preserve it. Stereo is the next mod on the list.