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Inexplicable Vibration disease, 60-80mph (new theory)
S500, ABC Suspension, 250k miles. Since getting the car, the 60-80mph vibration plague has persisted. The vibration gets worse when hitting a bump, reverberating through the car, but not in the steering wheel. Fixes tried include: F+R flex discs, engine mounts, tranny mount, center support bearing, F+R brakes (although front rotors are warped, only matters when braking - vibration isn't in the steering wheel), front thrust and control arms, subframe bushings, four new ABC struts, PVC electrical tape on wheel hubs in rear to center wheel, driveshaft rebuilt, wheel and tire balance like a thousand times, adjustment and then replacement of the front wheel bearings, rear wheel bearings, probably more.... no solution.
Recently I had to replace ABC lines that go between the car and the subframe in the rear, I had to drop the subframe and do that entire **** process of ABC line extraction and installation.
I got everything installed again and torqued to spec. After doing a test drive, I lifted and inspected the rear suspension again. There's some bumping/clunking noise I can't point, but I'm not worried about it. I did check the subframe mounts. The rears seem good.... but the forward ones...
I had replaced them with Lemförder, a reputable brand.The Part # is: A215 350 00 08... and... discontinued by mercedes. W0t? The rears are available, but the rears are fine. What's going on here? Maybe... maybe this is an endemic issue, and maybe the solution is stiffer/aftermarket mounts. Meyle's and Febi's are available.
hhmmnn
Did the rear subframe mounts long time ago the 2 "hidden" ones which were bad.
did not fix it.
eventually, the center bearing fixed it by correcting the alignment marks and the lateral positioning.
Check the alignment marks, since you rebuilt the drive shaft.
Good luck!
hhmmnn
Did the rear subframe mounts long time ago the 2 "hidden" ones which were bad.
did not fix it.
eventually, the center bearing fixed it by correcting the alignment marks and the lateral positioning.
Check the alignment marks, since you rebuilt the drive shaft.
Good luck!
Alignment marks on the CSB? Wasn't sure there were any. I'm going to investigate with a vibrate-o-matic; a vibration detector/measurer.
An owner on another MBZ forum shared: A slight error (looseness) in the hub-centering rib on the wheel hub can cause this issue. SOlved his problem by affixing a single layer of electrical tape affixed to the hub ring. No promises
An owner on another MBZ forum shared: A slight error (looseness) in the hub-centering rib on the wheel hub can cause this issue. SOlved his problem by affixing a single layer of electrical tape affixed to the hub ring. No promises
Been doing this for a long time, it didn't solve the issue.
Replacing the subframe stretch bolts has made a slight difference
Alignment marks on the CSB? Wasn't sure there were any. I'm going to investigate with a vibrate-o-matic; a vibration detector/measurer.
I apologize:
Maybe I was not clear enough:
Alignment arrow and target for the 2 driveshaft halved longitudinally at the center bearing (to keep them in-phase).
For the up-down alignment of the center bearing you measure the 2 halves with a precise electronic level.
I apologize:
Maybe I was not clear enough:
Alignment arrow and target for the 2 driveshaft halved longitudinally at the center bearing (to keep them in-phase).
For the up-down alignment of the center bearing you measure the 2 halves with a precise electronic level.
I forgot I got new tires on the car and forgot to put the electrical tape on the rear wheel hubs. This alleviated a LOT of vibrations but not all of them. Will have to do this.
2002 S500 Sport AMG package W220, (prev) 2012 E350 coupe C207
The timing of this post is hilarious for me, im in the middle of rebuilding my front end suspension on my '02 s500, the previous owners fixed jack **** on this thing, seems they only fixed anything once it broke down, so im restoring the whole thing.
Anyways, im just ordering everything for the left front to finish up the front end, and all of a sudden this weekend the drive just got waaay worse, i know mostly from my sway bar bushings, but it was something else, a vibration felt thru the whole vehicle but not the steering wheel like you said. so i went over everything at work yesterday, and guess what i found.... The same, thing, front bushings on the rear subframe/axle carrier... Rears are fine lol. Has a split on the outside connection part of the rubber.
But what i really came to say was,
Just wondering, idk if you reviewed WIS for this, but there was an update for the bolt used, the ones that go thru the center of the bushing thru the subframe and into the frames floor, they updated it to a wider and longer bolt, and removed the washer as well. Not sure if its because of the vibration, or because the recall on the 211's for those bolts snapping. But yeah just FYI.
The timing of this post is hilarious for me, im in the middle of rebuilding my front end suspension on my '02 s500, the previous owners fixed jack **** on this thing, seems they only fixed anything once it broke down, so im restoring the whole thing.
Anyways, im just ordering everything for the left front to finish up the front end, and all of a sudden this weekend the drive just got waaay worse, i know mostly from my sway bar bushings, but it was something else, a vibration felt thru the whole vehicle but not the steering wheel like you said. so i went over everything at work yesterday, and guess what i found.... The same, thing, front bushings on the rear subframe/axle carrier... Rears are fine lol. Has a split on the outside connection part of the rubber.
But what i really came to say was,
Just wondering, idk if you reviewed WIS for this, but there was an update for the bolt used, the ones that go thru the center of the bushing thru the subframe and into the frames floor, they updated it to a wider and longer bolt, and removed the washer as well. Not sure if its because of the vibration, or because the recall on the 211's for those bolts snapping. But yeah just FYI.
Sorry about your troubles. As you're upgrading the suspension, are you torquing them down with the wheels on the ground (for the bushings)?
Lemförder (OEM), and Meyle have gone to **** the past few years, which is really tragic (especially about Lemförder). It might be worth investing in genuine Mercedes parts, although it's possible the Lemförder disease has spread to Mercedes Genuine as well.
I've replaced the bolts for the rear forward subframe bushings, but I did not consult WIS on that. I don't recall any washer in there. Perchance do you have the WIS document, and/or hte part # for the upgraded bolt?
2002 S500 Sport AMG package W220, (prev) 2012 E350 coupe C207
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yeah of course, id be ashamed to call myself be a certified tech if i didnt! Lol Jkjk, but yeah i make sure to bring the lift down and fully tighten everything while its all loaded and on the tires, I actually usually go back to recheck after awhile too, just ocd like that. We have an alignment rack too thats super convenient for that as well. But I originally bought this from a friend for pretty cheap, about 2k i think,(cheap for the bay area at least) after my 2012 E-Coupe got totalled, i was so devastated i wouldnt buy snything BUT another mercedes lol. I planned on fixing and.flipping it asap because i didnt want to deal with it and onew i could make at least 3k profit in good shape. Well that didnt happen, and come to find out the amount of stuff thats severely deteriorated. And i ended up falling in love with it lol so im restoring it now, or trying. But due to the sheer amount of things to be done, plus the ****ty timing of other unfortunate situations ive been dealing with, i havent been going with Genuine MB or anything OEM or OE foreal, i go for as best as i can within a cheaper price range just to make sure its safe and nothing catastrophic happens. then ill get to putting longer lasting/ more quality stuff in the future, not the cheapest of course.i try to stick with American made and decent stuff that i can research a good amount on and lots.of decent reviews, still with longer or lifetime warranties. Theres Some things i get thru my work, but even with my employee discount wich is ridiculously good, like over 50% off, the parts are still twice as expensive as off brand lol. Anyways, I was thinking I'd have to wait till i return to work in the AM to pull up the document but I actually took a picture since i need to do it asap, ill include that.
Also, just funny/ kinda ****ty predicament: im sure you already know, theres an extractor and insertion/press-in tools needed for both the front and rear bushings on the rear subframe, both their own set of each, but since (for whatever reason) MB discontinued the front bushing, we dont carry the special tools it needs at my dealership! 🤦🏾♂️🤬 Pretty annoying ill most likely need to "buy"(and hopefully return after lol) a tool just for a one time use aha. Sorry for the ramble lol.
EDIT: i read the document more closely and i missed that the change was implemented in the year 2000🤦🏾♂️😅 so probably already included lol, my badd
Holy ****. I think I found the problem. I went for a drive, and the vibration is GONE. 1. Electrical tape around the wheel hub, 2. Don't torque the wheels with the load of the car on the tires.... ffs. Either set the car partially down to torque, or put the e-brake. I don't think the front wheels matter.
I can't believe it took me this long to figure it out.
2002 S500 Sport AMG package W220, (prev) 2012 E350 coupe C207
Where exactly do you tape it?
At my shop we're, at least i was, taught to only torque wheels on partial load, never fully off the lift, when putting them back on. Never thought it'd cause all that lol, glad you found it tho, hopefully it stays that way aha..
but what do you mean putting tape around the wheel hub, like where exactly, around the edge where the wheels would mount to? Also the driveshat coupling or whatever i seen you guys say you taped as well, where at?
At my shop we're, at least i was, taught to only torque wheels on partial load, never fully off the lift, when putting them back on. Never thought it'd cause all that lol, glad you found it tho, hopefully it stays that way aha..
but what do you mean putting tape around the wheel hub, like where exactly, around the edge where the wheels would mount to? Also the driveshat coupling or whatever i seen you guys say you taped as well, where at?
2002 S500 Sport AMG package W220, (prev) 2012 E350 coupe C207
Originally Posted by Fried Chicken
"Hub-Centric" wheels:
Oh wow ohk, so you tale off the rotor and do that? Just 1 layer or so? Damn THAT solved the vibration?? hats crazy lol i wouldve never guessed, but why does that happen is what id want to know lol.
Oh wow ohk, so you tale off the rotor and do that? Just 1 layer or so? Damn THAT solved the vibration?? hats crazy lol i wouldve never guessed, but why does that happen is what id want to know lol.
Because there is too much space between the wheel and the hub. If you put the wheel on, place the car down, then torque the wheel, it will sit off center relative to the hub and imbalance the whole assembly. Ideally you don't torque wheels with the weight of the vehicle on them, nor with the weight of the wheel pulling the wheel down. If you have good intuition with a lift you can achieve this. If you're joe shade tree, the best you can do is torque them without the weight of the vehicle.
I find it amazing that the slightly off-center mounting would not be corrected by the hundreds of pounds of pressure applied by five rounded culottes seating into precision-machined pockets in the wheels, but apparently that doesn't happen.
I suppose that my standard method of wheel mounting avoids the problem. I use the mounting tool to get the wheel onto the car, install one bolt finger-tight, skip a hole clockwise and install that bolt finger tight, continue (removing the mounting tool) until all bolts are in finger-tight. Starting at the first bolt, I tighten each snugly in the same pattern, then around again in the same pattern getting them really tight. Finally, drop the car and torque each in the same pattern. Sounds complicated, but it works, and takes very little more time to do.
When I remove a wheel, I lift most of the weight from the tire, and break the bolts loose by a half-turn in the same skipping pattern, but going around counter-clockwise. Then lift the car and loosen each bolt one or two turns in the same pattern, then remove the bolts.
Why? Because I grew up working with steel wheels, which can be bent by poor installation techniques, and because I've always done it this way.
His problem seems to be that his wheel hub bore is a little bit larger than the center hub, causing vibration. Usually plastic hub rings are the solution but if the gap is too small for a hub ring then a piece of tape accomplishes the same thing - just might wear out faster
03-13-2023, 10:43 PM
