NZ_Benz

OK then if no one has had a drive of the Lexus, how can you say it is not as good if not better? Your right it most likely is not as good as the S550 but don't write if off. What I was meaning about the 126 and 140 is that alot of people say these cars were built better than the current batch, I can't really comment because I have not been able to compare the two. But in the sense that the only place you will find materials and build that is that high is in things like Rolls and Bentley etc. All I am saying is I don't know how the 221 will shape up over time but the 220 for a car whos oldest examples are about what 7 years old seem to be comming apart at the seams in alot of cases, if I could see in to teh future and that a 221 would then become like that, well give me the lexus anyday.

Nevada Jack

The initial W220 was a bad Mercedes Benz and to use that as the benchmark for the W221 is hardly a good comparison. My '06 W220 was a very well made vehicle and although not coming close to the quality of my W221, it was a very solid car. "Coming apart at the seams" may be a little over the top...:-) There have been no early complaints or electronic bugs with the release of the W221 and it has been on sale since Fall in Europe and since February in the states. I have over 6500 miles on mine and the car is superb and better than any MB I have owned in 30 years of driving them.

I don't think the W126 and W140 were built better than the new W221, they were built differently in a different era of what a luxury car should be. Times change and so do the products we use. If you have no desire to own a W221 before 7 years have passed...so be it. You may say the same about the Lexus LS460 which is still being prepared for launch. With the two cars available in 2007 and a choice of either...give me the MB anyday..:-)

ruykava

actually, NZ_Benz, i can comment on this point since my family has owned (over the years) 3 W126, 2 W140, and 2 W220 (pre- and post-facelift) - and i have test driven the W221.

the W126 and W140 are certainly very solid cars, but the W126 in particular is way out of its depth compared even to the early W220. it drives like a tank and can hardly be steered. but yes - it is probably the best built among them all. you can see why though: it is basically a very simple car, built very well. every cent went to the build, build, and build.

the W140 on the other hand, i must say i really love - too bad bits and pieces do tend to fall off after (many) years and it's dramatically expensive to fix. it also drives much better than one might think - the thing CORNERS! the early W220 was probably overall the worse, but the facelifted one is much, much better - i rank it on par with W140 - very different in character, but equal in their own way.

i have not the slightest hesitation, though, in saying that the W221 blows every single one of them out of the water, no questions asked

as for the LS - we actually had the original and current LS as well. all nicely built (just like our LX) but, to be frank, not comparable to the S. good company cars though, as no matter how you drive them they just don't break down :p

hope i haven't been TOO critical of the LS in these posts - i just wanted to point out that the survey itself seems pointless. but we will certainly be checking it out when it does come up - one must keep an open mind, yes? =) just from the pictures though, if i had the money to spare i know where it's going... and it's not going to Toyota :p (sorry, can resist the jibe)

JizJizJiz

Very well said. No one cares about a ****ing hard drive. I want my car to drive well and look good - something the old LS failed horrendously. The new one, while I don't know how well it'll drive, is certainly no looker .

JizJizJiz

Yup. Very reliable - they even managed to make the electronics reliable :o.

But they are as fun to drive as a retirement home is to look at.

Gojirra99

But it's the same for mercedes, too much family resemblance. The Mercedes sedans here are like dressed up versions of the Mercedes taxi's found all over Europe.
At least Toyota & Lexus cars don't share the same body, they have different sheet metals. They use stripped down versions of the exact same Mercedes models here as taxi's in Europe & some other places . . .

PHXATC

I think the new LS460 is an awesome car. Everybody's right, it's still prerelease territory, but the pics that I've seen, I like.

Flamesuit on: the only S550 that I've seen (stock) that I like is NJ's white one with the AMG goodies. That's it! I've seen silver ones on the road that look plain jane, black ones in the dealer showroom that look like a cookie cutter car, and a tan one that about made me vomit. I would buy a LS460 over a S550 anyday of the week. That's me though, I just like it better.

Before you clobber me, we did purchase an 06 E350 over the GS300/430 last week. It's all about what a person wants and why they want it. I could argue why I feel the LS460 is better for me than the S550 until I'm blue in the face. Also I could argue why the E350 is a better fit for me than the GS series. We bought the cars that we liked and fit our needs.

John Deere riding lawnmowers kick the crap out of any other brand too.

Nevada Jack

Correct on the John Deere tractor...only brand to buy. Had one in 1969 for my lawn and it was a world beater then...:-))))

Thanks for the nice words on the only S550 you liked...maybe when your ready you will see another one and pick it over the Lexus...

Nevada Jack

Best you learn about the model lines in MB's cars and their use in Germany as opposed to here in the states. The E Class is used as a taxi with a diesel engine in the lowest model level...Europe sells each model in several levels and they are not "stripped down" versions what is sold here. More accurate is that the versions sold in the US are usually the top of the line models which are sold in Europe as Avant Garde (?)

Each model MB has it's own design team and sheet metal. They do not take a C Class sedan, add more goodies and call it a E Class or S Class.

Gojirra99

Nether do toyota. They don't take a FWD Camry or Avalon, add more goodies & call it a GS or LS. Totally different platforms.

I travel to Europe almost every year & I know very well what these Mercedes taxi's are like, I rode in them numerous times. The materials they use are different & you can even get an E or S class in cloth seats there, the wheels are smaller & cheaper etc, plus they are usually less well equipped than those high end /higher power versions here. Yes they sold them in different levels but yes I would still call the lower ones "stripped down versions" IMHO.

At least to me, if one cares about image, an expensive car that have lower versions that looks exactly the same used as taxi's everywhere in Europe & some other parts of the world is not a positive.

1985mb

No, they call it a CLK.

No, they call it a ES300.

AsianML

NO.

More rather that MB has been around the longest, they've had the time to come up with new technology, new innovations that they've created.

On the Lexus, although they do have some innovations of their own, not nearly as many as MB has. I'd rather buy a car from a company that created those things, rather than a car whose company took that idea and just changed it a little to be a little different.

HansBlix

I think the age of buying off-warranty luxobarges and having any chance of being able to afford to keep them running past 100K miles is coming to a close. Who in god's name needs all those hard drives and cameras everywhere? All that nonsense is even trickling down to the smaller cars in the lineups.... I can only imagine what percentage of electrical features in a W221 or the Lexus LS will work 5 or 6 years down the road.

Sorry, a bit of rant there, but all this pointless gadgetry in today's cars is making me mad.

NZ_Benz

Just to add to my earlier posts, I'm not saying that the W221 is a bad car or that the Lexus is better. I even say very clearly in my posts that I cannot compare from personal expierence, just what other people have said. Nobody knows what the future holds for the W221, but as I said earlier by drawing an inference between the W221, W220 and even the W140 (which was not as high tech) is that these cars are not that reliable past a few years. IF and it is a very big if (as Nevada Jack has said the W221 is a very very good car). If the car will not hold up over time if I were in a position to buy one (I wish at 19) I would seriously consider the Lexus because it is more of a sure thing (looking at their past models). You also have to look at it in my contex. In New Zealand we get alot of 2nd hand imports and we tend to drive older cars, also cars are more expensive here and we earn less than in the US, for example my insurance company wanted a book value of 25K for my current car. Thus most of the MBs that are here are the cast offs from Japan or Singapore. My 1993 was imported in 2001 when it was already I guess by American standards an old car. Thats why I am very interested to see how the W221 goes in the long run as we will start getting them here in decent numbers in 4-5 years, looking at the W220 I will not even consider getting one I might try to go for a 98-99 W140 or just see how long my current one goes for, but when I am older I would love a W221 providing that it will not fall apart on me.

Well that was long, if you can be bothered reading well then I commend you.

MB Fanatic

Have you heard of paragraphs? You might want to use them.

Nevada Jack

I better understand your situation now. I would not be afraid of a 05/06 W220 when the time comes to consider replacing the your current car. My '06 was well built fit and finish wise and the quality was excellent. As you can see on my website, it is a great looking car inside and out and being the last model year it will be a dependable vehicle.

If the W221 starts "falling apart" then the entire worldwide auto industry is in big trouble...:-) As solid as this car is and the way it performs...I think you will see them for a long time. Maintenance on any MB will be costly...they always have been that way.

NZ_Benz

I think so, but am not sure Smartass

HansBlix

I hear you bud, I'm with you 100% on this. I shudder to think what sorts of issues an 8 year old W221 might/will have. Running a 7 year old A8 is no picnic either, and as far as today's cars go its pretty old fashioned - very few changes since 1994. My friends who have W140s and W220s as well as E38s and E65s, of comparable or later vintage are deluged by ridiculous problems of every sort, so I'm thankful for having a car that is "old school." One of my friends' 2002 S430 has had twice as many problems as my 99 A8 this past year. As much as I love old luxobarges, they are being crammed with so much unproven technology now, that I am having trouble seeing myself continuing to buy the same class of car without full warranty for the entire time that I own it.

NZ_Benz

Don't even get me started on the W140 LOL, in the end it is worht it for the car that I have, I figure that if I dump another 2k into the car I 'should' be set, whoever buys it after me will get a bargin as I'm sure I will have rebuilt the car from teh ground up

zam2000

Reading through some of you guys posts, I think some of you will take a Yugo over a Japanese car, as long as there's a Mercedes logo on top of the Yugo.

It's a Mercedes forum, so we shouldn't be surprised to see lot of tri-star fan here. However, some of the post just sound outright stupid. (software to bump couple gear ???). Instead of debate pro and cons of each car, some clown just worship Mercedes, and trash everything else blindly.

Biggest joke of all: how can so many people put Mercedes at its own leage, because of "prestige" or "herritage". Go to Europe: they're being used a Taxi !!!. Yep, even the S class. (I know some of you would then whine: "it's being used as cab because it's realiable"). I'm sure if Lexus is being used around as cab, some people here would stay up overnight to write joke about it. It shouldn't take long for the W221 to be used as cab in Europe. When I was in Holland, most of the cab there were S class (W220).

The new S class (W221) is already being used in Moscow as taxi. I don't know how many here are in Russia lately: the amount of Mercedes/BMW/Bentley in Moscow is more than the entire United States combined, and they don't blindly worship a car for its brand just like lot of people in the States.

http://www.taxi749.ru/

The LS is not even released to public yet. Most here probably see it in pix only, so stop acting like clown trying to trash it. Can we at least get back to post w/ substance ? Instead of the type of "it's not a mercedes, it's a POS" post. And can we pls put all of those BS "herritage", "prestige", and "history" to rest.

superstar

Are you guys trying to compare a child with a monster? it is not even worth talking about!
No comparison at all .. Japanese engineerings still way behind , they might catch with the Europeans one day .
Actually ,they are working so hard , but still can not make the best of the best cars . I have known many people went out of there minds , and bought top of the line Lexus, and eventually sold it,and went back to Benz or Beemer, because they felt the differences in every aspects.
I do not think Lexus is a professional choice for someone who got taste in cars. Even if you asked the japs themselves , they will admit that they are no where close to the Germans or Europeans car makers.

Germancar1

The LS460 on paper so far looks to be the equal of the S550, but the real test will be the drive, that is where I think it won't quite stack up. It should be fast I'm sure, but with 8 gears Lexus had better have it perfected otherwise there is going to be a lot of hunting for the right gear with a smaller engine that develops its power at higher revs than the S550. There are many details about the LS460 that we simply don't know yet so zam2000 does have a point. Will the LS460 have a standard air suspenion or something to compete with Mercedes' ABC? Don't know yet. I doubt if the SWB LS460 will, but the LS600h most likely will. Air suspension will likely again be an option for the LS460 models.

As far as looks go it looks impressive upon first glance because it is so much sleeker than the Sante Fe boxcar LS430, but after a while the LS460 appears too slab-sided (as does the new IS and ES), bland even with no real "style" like the S-Class, A8 or even 7-Series. Of course Lexus fans will say it looks so great because next to the LS430 an Ammana freezer would look good I guess. The interior is much more of the same, lots of bright beige leather and millions of buttons, but it does look marginally better than the LS430's interior. I've seen the car at both Detroit and Chicago and while impressive on paper it is less-so in person IMO. The final test will be how it looks going down the road - stay tuned for that because Lexus will likey be selling about 3500-4000 of them a month starting in Oct-Nov. The S-Class' sales of 3K a month will not last long after the LS460 hits the market especially with a SWB LS460 projected to cost about 64K.

zam2000 - I agree with your take on some of the anti-Lexus comments, but what do you expect on a dedicated MB board?

M

georgl

I've seen the LS460 and it basically makes the same impression as in the pictures: nice looking exterior, mediocre interior.

But we wanted to keep this discussion substantial, no design, no history, just being objective.

There is a objective reason why Toyota is not Mercedes, it's not the image, it's not history - it's the philosophy!

Many people already mentioned differences in quality between new MB/BMW... and old 126/140. But what is the reason for this?
I've asked this question myself many years ago and it was not very easy to find answers, the companys don't want to admit these changes, they aren't mentioned in studies, brochures, press - you need to read between the lines.

I've already mentioned some of these aspects in different threads but it's difficult for me to put it into simple words (especially in english;-) so I'm trying a conclusion:

Toyota and other japanese car-makers combined their capabilities in engineering (superior to most car-nations, I have to admit) and marketing without restraints in engineering philosphies. They just made exactly what the (US-)consumer wished for. Most consumers are not very clever neither they know much about engineering. They just buy what image or marketing (includes most studies and press) is telling them to buy.
From all german car-makers especially MB was different. They didn't care much about what all the lawyers, doctors, business people (who bought MB) wanted - they were the engineers, they knew best how to improve the product. Would you buy a car with a explosive bag smashed into your face? Would you pay thousands of dollars for a little black box called ABS or ESP you can't see or feel under normal circumstances when you could have nice leather and a big, colorful screen on your dashboard?
For a certain time period this system worked, even when the customers didn't understand all the technology, they bought the MB, because they've trusted the brand.
In the late 80s the japanese companys entered the US-market of MB, BMW...
and everything changed. They were cheaper to produce because they didn't have to fulfill higher internal crash standards (like MB), higher quality requirements no quality-study is able to detect (camshaft, axles, forged hinges...) and often based on old technology even when a new model arrived (most german cars are completly new cars - even today - because they want to push technology further and further).
This well-proved technology, many standard-parts combined with well japanese build quality and huge marketing destroyed most of the engineering-philosophy!
Now we have more recalls than ever, more plastic with every generation, more outsourcing, chinese (or eastern-europe) workers have to make japanese (or german) work and sell it at japanese (german) prices to make more profit every year (the managers keep the rest)...

New design, senseless but easy to realize innovations, while expensive solutions that are not easily to put into marketing explanations die out.

MB had to remove the electrohydraulic brake-system (the first step into the future of brake-technology), many innovations of the 221/216 (42V board-system, active steering) were removed because nobody wants to pay the price when something with new, unexperienced technology goes wrong...
Customers want old technology with nice design, a few new buttons and a nice quality study which tells them how great there car is...
Do you think this philosophy creates technological progress?

I've often asked Lexus sales people while showing me a Lexus where the quality is. They've immediatly started to talk about J.D.-Power and all the stuff they've learned... And I've said: "That was not my question. SHOW me the quality right here, open the hood, show me superior construction details, more solid materials..." and they didn't knew what to do...

MB and the other engineering companys we're afraid. They knew what happened to the german consumer-electronic companys. Building better and better products but nobody wanted to buy them anymore because they were expensive, had no cool displays and all this senseless stuff...
MB made a last try with the W140, more expensive, more complex and better than everything else... But the customer ignored it, they didn't sold as much cars as they've expected and so everybody who wanted to cut costs with "lean-production", "outsourcing", "team-work" was in a more powerful position than the engineers. Trust me, I see it every day at work, this is not about efficiency, it's about putting away responsibility - most changes were senseless, some just got new stylish names (MB and many other german companys had team-work since decades - it just was called "Gruppenarbeit" - doesn't sound cool enough :-).
But some aspects of the old "engineering philosophy" survived. The 221 or a 911 still make some things different, more complex, more expensive but better! But it depends on the customer which way the future will go...
Highest quality or highest profit?

Don't get me wrong, competition created such wonderful technology, but it has to be about the best procuct, not the best way to trick the customer.

When customers would be clever, aware of the responsibility and power they have, we wouldn't have this quality discussion, no production outsourcing, no chinese IPod which works for 2 years, no 200$ Nike/Adidas shoes which last one year because the worker collapsed after 20h work for 0,50$, no Windows on our computers...

But maybe humans don't change and I'm just a dreamer... ;-)

Buy whatever you want, but be aware of the effects, the philosphy behind a product. Do you really want to rely on design, image or J.D.-Power and press when you pay 100k$ for a car or 1000$ for a new washing machine? The internet is such a fantastic way to see behind the curtains. Is the company just talking about "investor relations" or is it showing details of production? Is a sales person just talking about studies and cool design or is it really showing you essential things? All these circumstantial evidences help you to make the right choice.
I don't make it either with every 0,50€ chocolate I buy, but when I buy a new car, I'm to poor to buy cheap stuff!

ORK1

Why is that?
It was Mercedes who invented airbags, airmatic, ABC, ASR, ABS, injection, best diesel engines and many many other useful things that were copied by others, incl. Lexus. So Mercedes deserves all those words and its own leage.

Those are not taxi's. There is no Mercedes taxi in Moscow, neither S class, nor E class. Link that you provided belongs to company, that provides VIP 'taxi" , - it's limo escort service, and they use A8 as well.
I've seen pictures of BMW 7 series as a taxi in Germany, with that taxi thing on top, so what?
And people here do worship some brands, for example there are many BMW fans here.

clkcadet