Originally Posted by carsinamerica

Some good points in the review, but I'm going to quibble as well. I see that the LS might not be right for you, but the rest of you shouldn't assume that this makes the LS right for nobody except the needlessly stingy.

For the complaint about too many buttons: I LIKE buttons. Just from the geeky side, I like the look of a dash with plenty of switchgear, and I've never seen a car with too many buttons. In fact, aesthetically, I think that M-B went too far with the W221. It's very clean inside, that's true, but I felt it was too empty (Honest: I sat down inside and thought, 'why all the unused space?'). That's just my sense of what a car interior should be. But, to consider the practical side, I can learn button locations very quickly, and not shift eyes from the road. I loathe MMI/iDrive/Comand systems for trying to lump too many functions into too little space. Now, BMW is probably the worst offender on that score, but I think M-B is trying to do too much with Comand, too.

I also agree with the poster who mentioned a floor shifter. I wouldn't want to be without one. It preserves a link to the standard transmission, and can be a wonderful piece of style in its own right. The console shifter is also where I prefer to rest my right hand when it's not on the wheel. Using the armrest leaves me feeling my hand is too far out of position.

I have to admit, NevadaJack, that I laughed out loud at your comment about mistaking an Avalon for an LS. You've said a great many brilliant things on this forum, but you're a little off the reservation with that one. It's possible, I suppose, but I think they look very different. And to suggest that M-B doesn't have a problem of shared styling is to willfully ignore the C215 CL-Class and the current CLK (which look very similar from some quarters), or the extent to which the new SLK apes the SLR. AND M-B has half the world convinced, wrongly, that the R-Class and the Pacifica are two versions of the same thing. The LS looks nothing like the GS or the IS, and that's good enough for me. I think all companies, though, are trying to hard to impose a "brand identity" on the exterior of their vehicles, and it gets rather tiresome. Lexus is still trying to find its stylistic niche, and I hope they keep a wider appearance range than, say, Audi.

I get rather tired of people pounding on the Japanese. I actually like the somewhat understated and subdued look, and I always found the LS to be unobjectionable. I think the new version is easily the most stylish LS ever on the outside, and while it is definitely Japanese in appearance, that's no different from the Teutonic appearance of German sedans. It's just an aspect of their differing characters. I also like the interior ambience; I've always loved the style of the woods that Lexus uses in their interiors (I fell in love, though, with the S600 Designo Mystic White, thanks to my soft spot for piano lacquer). They've never felt cheap to me. Obviously the new LS isn't perfect, but NEITHER IS THE S-CLASS. It's a damned nice sedan, but even it has flaws and weak points, and they all cater to slightly different niches. That's why I roll my eyes sometimes when people ask "what should I buy?" Well, what's most important to you?

The bottom line, in my book, is that they are all fully equivalent. In the top-flight luxury range (before venturing to 100k+ market, that is), you've got about a half-dozen competitors: the A8, the 7er-Reihe, the XJs, the LS-Series, the Qporte, and the S-Klasse, plus the junior players: the DTS, Q45, and even the Acura RL. All of them cater to slightly different groups, with some overlap, but they're all valid. Except the Lincoln Town Car, which deserves to be shot at once and replaced with something more like the '02 Continental Concept. If you want something totally sport, buy a Qporte or a 7er. If you want a steam locomotive effect that shows that you've arrived and shouts from the rooftops, then buy all means buy a S550 (and yes, there are plenty of other good reasons to do so, as well). If you want something that says old-school sport saloon, then you can't go wrong with an XJ. I don't know who buys A8s. Considering their yearly sales figures, neither does Audi. Just kidding. It's someone who wants a Teutonic feel, but has a techy bent and a sense of quirkiness (a rich Saab buyer, basically). And if you want a lot of features and available power, but without lots of flash, then an LS is a good choice. But even in these thumbnail stereotypes, there's room for cross-over buyers, and most importantly, room for everyone and their favorite car. There's little worse than people sneering, 'it's not really an S-Class competitor.' Of course it is: engines, pricing, exclusivity, interior volume, feature content, fit and finish; in these categories they are all more or less comparable, with some stronger in some areas than others.

I laugh, as well, when people try to dismiss Lexus as just a Toyota. Sure it is. And M-B is just a glorified Chrysler, and Audis are just expensive VWs. Of course they aren't, and even if they were, you could do far worse. Lexus takes the best features of Toyota (reliability, ease of maintenance, efficiency, customer service, and quieting) and takes that to the next level. Yes, Lexi were sold as Toyotas in Japan, but there the company had 5 sales channels that functioned like GM's divisions, and intelligent people don't say that all Cadillacs are just Chevys, which is a similar analogy. My Camry already uses the expensive muffler/exhaust system chosen by M-B, as I discovered to my horror when a tailgater rear-ended me. I like my car for its road isolation and soothing aspect. I can still push it hard when I want to, and even a four-cylinder Toyota can be fun to play with in the twisties if you keep your foot in the right spot, but the thought of a Toyota-like ride quality and cabin stillness in a luxury car is very appealing to me, even though I'm not an old geezer yet. And liking a car that's quiet and supple until asked to be something else is not to call it "an appliance". Anyone who has ever heard a fridge or a blender knows that appliances are noisy things. I'd rather hear Mark Levinson than the drone of tires on asphault, thank you very much, and if I want to hear the engine, I'll hit the loud pedal.

It may be true that price becomes less relevant in this segment, but I would still hold that bulletproof reliability is worth something, too. And why pay more if you can get everything you want for less? Just because the LS costs less than the S-Class doesn't make it cheap, or a car for tightwads, as some have seemed to imply. If your favorite niche requires paying more, fine and dandy, but if it doesn't, that's fine too. It doesn't make your car underclass. In my book, if I spend $70k+ for a car (hell, if I spend more than $10k), it had better work and get me where I want to go without warning lights producing a Christmas tree effect on the dashboard. Many of the empirical studies done consistently put BMW/Jaguar/M-B models at the very bottom of the reliability heap. If you're patient enough with, more power to you. You're certainly getting a dynamic, exciting vehicle. But, again just personally, it would annoy to spend that much on a car and not be able to enjoy it fully, whenever and wherever I want. I am happy to give M-B the benefit of the doubt on the W221, and I hope they've eliminated their gremlins, because I want the company to recover its reputation for quality, but I don't think I'd be ready to take the plunge into a Benz product yet, myself. To question whether the electronic gimmickry on an LS will work while implying that of course it all works on a 'Benz takes a spectacular amount of hubris.

It is also true that the LS is a very low-emissions vehicle; the LS puts out nearly a ton less in greenhouse gas emissions per year than its rivals, and of course the LS 460's fuel economy is best-in-class. Granted, you pay for that in acceleration, but it's still a quick car by most any standard. And in an era where both reducing oil supplies and rising temperatures are a reality, I believe this is work taking into account. No, not everybody has to buy a hybrid, but it's worth remembering that we all share a planet, and we'll all be screwed over when the glaciers melt, the coasts flood, and the climate patterns in the Interior mean that we'll have to grow corn in Saskatchewan.

However, I still respect people who choose to buy the full range of these cars. I disagree that there are too many marques: on the contrary, it means that there's something for everyone, whatever your outlook. As a student of the industry, and a general enthusiast, I can see the different sides of the dice. I understand why people buy Audis, and why people buy Benzs, and Bimmers, and the rest of it. From seeing it, and poking around it, I like the LS. It'd probably be my choice, were I in the market for such a vehicle, but I wouldn't heap scorn on people who make a different choice. I respect the people whose posts I read here, and I'm glad they love their M-B's as much as I love my Camry. Let's just all enjoy the wonders of the modern automotive industry, and recognize that almost all brands have some strength that others do not. Just don't go all holier-than-thou just because someone prioritizes differently, or has a different sense of style, and don't think that because your car is perfect for you that is thus the only choice for everyone on the planet who doesn't want to be called a loser.

Originally Posted by carsinamerica

I laugh, as well, when people try to dismiss Lexus as just a Toyota. Sure it is. And M-B is just a glorified Chrysler, and Audis are just expensive VWs. Yes, Lexi were sold as Toyotas in Japan, but there the company had 5 sales channels that functioned like

Originally Posted by vraa

NevadaJack -- my miniscule point of view.

It's less of an issue of reliability than it is dealer service. For me I'd rather have that less half second acceleration for four years of the cars life, a less sporty ride, and bland looks as long as I'm treated respectfully at the dealer. Our Mercedes dealer just doesn't cut the cake. I find a considerable amount of mroe respect at our Toyota... err Lexus dealer

As for looking for a sedan above 90k$ and not considering anything BUT a S-Class -- sorry Jack, that's just not true. There are plenty of badass luxury cruisers in that range from Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and hopefully soon from Acura (when will they get a decent V8!), Porsche (we'll see how their Panamera turns out, I think it'll be more CLS-competitor though), and a few other companies.

It's a good time to be a car enthusiast. And for the record I think the LS looks nasty

Originally Posted by Nevada Jack

Nice essay...and the L version at that...:-)) It it what I call a "180 response" meaning that you appear to be neutral and unbiased, but have the little zingers now and then to make your points.

Excuse the expression, but Bull Feathers! The S has over a year of production history now and after some 70,000+ copies, not a hint of any problems. Reviews have been nothing but gracious and full of complements. The S63 just received outstanding intro reviews. The GL just won SUV of the year...the ML is breaking sales records. Will the rash of recent Toyota recalls make you reluctant to "take the plunge" on a new LS?

And BTW...the new Avalon does look very much like the new LS...

As I said a nice essay, but in a MB forum full of MB advocates it sounds like Toyota speak to me.

Originally Posted by Nevada Jack

Quite frankly, to me anyone who can afford $90K+ for a luxury sedan is nuts to consider anything other than a S Class...I just want you to know I am "all holier-than-thou" on this subject.

Originally Posted by JLP

Why laugh? Lexus use's a large amount of Toyota content, engines, transmissions, switch-gear, drivetrain components, etc. If you poke around the inner workings of a Lexus you will see Toyota components everywhere. The same applies with Audi who use a large amount of VW parts in their cars.

You statement about M-B being glorified Chryslers is 100% inaccurate, M-B products contain 0% Chrysler components...........Zero...... in fact a W221 contains over 81% German content and 0% American or Canadian parts.

Your assumption about any crossover technology from Chrysler to MB is simply incorrect and its misinformed people like yourself who continue to perpetuate this fallacy. Its the other way around!

Now some M-B content (engines/crossfire/suspension/300c) has found its way into several Chrysler products and that has been a good thing for the American car company.

Originally Posted by carsinamerica

I'm not trying to be "neutral and unbiased". If you fully read what I wrote, I said flat out that the LS 460 was my kind of luxury car, and I enumerated why. My point is that we all have different preferences, and I am not wrong for wanting what I want in a luxury car. Just because it's not what YOU want doesn't make it wrong, just as I won't tell you that you're wrong to love your M-B.

Over a year of production and so far so good. The problem is, reports like those from CR and JDP (the long-term vehicle dependability surveys) require a couple years to gather data, and see how cars perform. I've never been too impressed with the IQS model -- of course nothing should go wrong in the first 3 months! Like I said, and as I said in my online article about the '07 S-Class, M-B has been making efforts to fix the quality control problem and that's a relief. I want the brand to return to what it was, with its indestructible cars. I am encouraged by some signs I've seen lately. However, it's going to take more than anecdotal evidence to prove the matter, and I'm withholding judgment until a little more time passes. I'm cautiously optimistic, though. I don't take any joy from M-B's woes, and I think it's the one thing that keeps them from being at the top of their game. In another year to 18 months, we should be able to have concrete data to decide whether their efforts have been sufficient, or whether further measures are required. I hope it works.

I have the same tepid response to BMW, by the way. I adore the 7-Series; I even found the '02-'05 version to be handsome, in a brutal sort of way. I love the interior, the engine, the whole package. But I'd be very leery about buying one, because, right now, their track record is against them.

As for Toyota: yes, it's a matter of concern. However, the company has already admitted it has a problem, and is taking steps to rectify the situation. It still has far fewer recalls per year than most of the competition, although Hyundai has done a fantastic job of catching up. Many of Toyota's problems have been with new vehicle launches, and they have said that they don't want increasing production rates to come at the expense of the company's reputation. Thus, I'd say they've recognized the problem very quickly and are working to fix it. If it continues, then yes I'd be slightly more cautious about
buying one, but I think they're being proactive, so far, so we'll see if the recall streak breaks. However, Lexus LS production has always been at a unique factory, and the car has always been at the very top of vehicle reliability, so until something happened to corrode that, I wouldn't be as concerned about a Lexus. And if that sounds like "Toyota-speak", too bad. It's one of those times that Japanese manag0ement strategy will probably pay off; the old "No problems is a problem" motif.



Thank you for proving my point. This is the problem. You aren't even willing to acknowledge that people might want different things in their luxury car, which was the whole point of my post. I'm glad you love your Benz. Don't be so ridiculously arrogant as to assume that I would, too. I know what I like, and impressive as the S-Class is, it just doesn't push my buttons the way the LS, or the 7-Series, does. That doesn't make it any less of a car, or any less of an engineering achievement. It just makes it not my cup of tea, and that's okay.

I'm glad you liked the essay, though, even if the point of it didn't seem to sink in very deeply.

P.S. -- I'm glad the M-Class is selling well, and congrats to the GL for being named SUVOTY by "Motor Trend". They don't use quality control figures to determine that, though, so it's not really germane to this discussion. And, lest you forget, they named the Ford Thunderbird COTY in 2002, and that was one of worst pieces of rubbish to come out of Dearborn in years. I'm not attacking the entire M-B product line. The C-Class, if I recall, is average to above average reliability. It's just the E, G, M, and S that have had notable problems.

Originally Posted by Nevada Jack

I know that when I get in my car I am driving one of the safest, most advanced, best perfoming automobiles in the world and for that I am thankful.

Originally Posted by carsinamerica

I'm feisty when I've been up all night researching cars that cost the earth and the sky, lol, like this one:

http://www.carsinamerica.net/bugatti/06bugvey.htm

You're certainly right about the S-Class being one of the safest in the world. A friend once told me that Mercedes went back to the drawing board on some model in the 1980s or 1990s because they calculated that you would only have a 50% chance of surviving a head-on impact at 120 miles per hour, which seemed a bit much to me, but you never know. I don't know if it is true or apocryphal, but proves a point regardless, as did the crash of Lady Diana's S-Class in Paris, where the one person who was properly belted lived, and the rear compartment was almost untouched. They're tanks, to be sure.

Originally Posted by AsianML

The Avalon looks more like the new CL than the new LS. The CL also looks like the LS, so I guess the Avalon looks like the LS in a way.....

Originally Posted by Nevada Jack

You need help AsianML...

Originally Posted by MB Fanatic

The CL looks nothing like the Avalon or LS Asian. Look at that C line along the side of the CL, those headlights, the bumper, and the rear.

Lets face it, there is very little differentiation between Toyota and Lexus, maybe besides a drivetrain configuration and range of options.

Hmm the Avalon has many features the LS has:

rear reclining seats
Radar cruise control
Xenon's (moot point)
keyless start
plenty of rear legroom, and a trunk that actually works
premium sound
DVD Nav
VDIM
dual climate
heated and cooled seats
and 280hp 3.5 liter engine all for 35K. Why pay more for the LS?

Originally Posted by Nyyankees3511

Guys if you dont see the CL and LS look more similar to each other rather than the Avalon there must be something wrong. Show that picture to anyone that doesnt know about cars and they will clearly point out the similar cars. The Avalon looks like crap compared to the LS. And MB fanatic why didnt you buy an Accord instead of the TL?

Originally Posted by carsinamerica

Allow me to introduce you a friend I call Mr. Sarcasm, who helped author my post.

I am fully aware, thank you very much, of the distinction in M-B and Chrysler lineups. It is almost exclusively a one-way flow to Chrysler, you are correct. I'd still argue that it dilutes the M-B brand to be that closely associated with Chrysler in the first place, which is one reason I never understood the "merger of equals", and which is why I'm not shocked by the reports over the last couple days that the Chrysler Group could be sold. It can create a *perception* of M-B as a premium Chrysler, and platform- and component-sharing can only serve to reinforce that image, such that it doesn't matter which way the transfer flows.

HOWEVER, parts-sharing aside, Audis aren't Vee-Dubs, and Lexis aren't just Toyotas. Some share platforms and some technology, but plenty of features are distinct, especially on the LS-Series. Lexuses have a great deal of extra worksmanship that go into them, which is why they are Lexus vehicles, just as Audis do compared to VWs.

Originally Posted by Germancar1

There is nothing "car like" to get excited about when it comes to Lexuses and Toyotas. People who buy Lexuses rarely comment on anything concerning the driving aspect of owning a car, only that they're quiet and reliablity. I find it to be a total yawn.


M

Originally Posted by stardoc

Although I agree with the first part of your statement, I would hardly say that driving a Mercedes is "exciting." They make refined cars that surround you with opulence but driving a car like an S550 is zzzzzzzzzzz.
Even AMG's are universally touted as straight line beasts with absolutely no track apeal. Mash the accelerator and watch it go, and for that matter same as the Toyota/Lexus. So, then what it basically comes down to is price and brand appeal.