DanTheMan1

nice choice, are those rims offical from mercedes benz?

xecution

Okay, sorry for the beat down I guess I took it too personal Anyways, as i said earlier, AMG cars are great I've owned an earlier model S55. but my argument is that AMG is a Tuner company so of course it has mods that make it more performance orientated. (by the way, the suspension is just a modified version of ABC, no sway bars in a s class mercedes) With that being the case, isn't it just as fair to go to Renntech, or Brabus and modify my S600 and be able to blow away a stock S65? to tell you the truth you some argue that they are better tuning companies than AMG just not inhouse with Mercedes.

xecution

no they are Mandrus wheels, they only make wheels for mercedes, and most people don;'t know they are actually the manufacturer of the AMG wheels although they have to seperate themselves for their aftermarket company.

xecution

Actually it was to stimulate discussion, but that doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion also. If you can't take a good debate than don't post. Including you.

vraa

Where did you find that AMG and Mandrus are made by the same company?

DanTheMan1

oh word? i thought bbs is making them???

tee_tz

It's cool, I didn't mean it in a rude way, that's the problem with forums/email/chat, you can't pick up the sincerity from reading a post.

But I agree that there are better tuning companies than AMG, but I think AMG doesn't tune to it's potential and I think frankly it deals with price and warranty (a.k.a. Liability). Being an "official" Mercedes partner, I think they need to refine their ideas a little - make sure it's sporty and offer 'just enough' performance to justify the price, and to make sure they don't 'over-do' things that'll lead to problems during the car's life. I mean, the S63 doesn't offer thaaaat much more than the S600 in terms of performance, I'm sure it feel stiffer and drives more aggressive (haven't driven a Mercedes S-AMG -- yet! ), but the S600 comes with much more features that aren't available on the S63... hmm... Mercedes must have had some intention in that.

But hey, one thing that's super about the S600 is the V12 engine. That's something the S63 owner won't have! Even if you decide to debadge your car, keep that V12 logo on their.


Tee_Tz.

vraa

I don't want to interject without the other guy replying, but I think BBS licenses technology to other companies... I think that's how ASA makes their wheels.

Same thing might be with Mandrus.

whoover

You make it sound as if performance gains without sacrificing reliability is some compromise that marketing forces down AMG's throat. That has always been their focus and is the main attraction for many of us who rate reliability way up there.
This comparison makes no sense. The AMG-tuned S600 is the S65, not the S63. And it does offer thaaat much more performance, if not thaaaat much, than an S600. Behind the wheel the difference is much more dramatic than the (impressive enough) numbers would lead you believe.

It might be reasonable to consider the S600 and S63 as purchase alternatives, but it makes no sense whatsoever to measure AMG as a tuner using those models.

xecution

Actually I don't know thats a fact just heard it, so like they say "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."

xecution

Ummmm did I miss something, has someone on here DRIVEN the S63, I thought it wasn't released yet hmmmm. Oh and from my research not first hand driving experiance this is what I found on the S63.

"The second AMG model, the S63 AMG, is yet to be announced. This variant will likely include much the same modifications as the S65 AMG, but will use AMG's new M156 6.2 liter V8 engine, which develops 503 hp (510 PS/375 kW) and 465 pound-feet (630 Nm) of torque. The engine will power the S63 through the 7G-TRONIC 7-speed transmission, with AMG-programmed electronic control.

So how does 503 horsepower (even though i've heard 525) and only 465 lb-ft of torque on the S63 make it faster than the 510 horses and 613 lb-ft of torque on the S600. I am sure the argument could be the weight of the V-12 but the numbers I've read were 0-60 in 4.6 and the s600 has been posting 4.2-4.5 The Torque on the S600 V-12 will Probably eat the S63 alive.

xecution

bottom line is the S600, S65 And S63 all have their advantages, .3 and .2 seconds can easily be made up with a more skilled driver so anyone who's lucky enough to own one, God Bless you. Lets all agree on one thing, Mercedes is making wonderful cars.

whoover

My mother driving my S65 could beat me driving an S600 or S63. And she ain't no Danica.

tee_tz

Okay, let's clear one thing up - in 2008 there will be no more S65's. It'll become the S63 (V8). At the moment there is no such thing as an S63. So either we talk of the S600 versus the current AMG S-Class, S65, or the coming AMG S-Class, S63.

The S63 essentially will be a sportier model to the S600, an AMG tuned V8-engine, that is lighter weight, handles better and is SLIGHTLY faster. I mean, if they raced 10 times the S63 will win 6 or 7 times, the S600 4 or 3. That's the reality.

whoover - Actually, AMG cars have had a lot of problems. Most of the warranties for AMG cars require the owner to pay a deductible, unlike BMW's M and Audi's S-Models. I do think Mercedes limits AMG to certain standards, whereas Brabus, etc. can pretty much do whatever they like - give it expensive parts that are hard to replace that change the DNA of Mercedes, anything they want! Therefore if your Brabus Mercedes breaks down, don't bother asking Mercedes-Benz to repair it, whereas if your AMG breaks down, Mercedes can easily identify the problems as AMG parts are certified by Mercedes. So I think when it comes to tuning, of course others can offer better tuning than AMG, but it's not like AMG is not capable of doing that, I think Mercedes influences AMG's options. You don't want to sell an E63 for $150,000.


Tee_Tz.

whoover

Where have you seen an announcement that the S65 will be discontinued? It's hard to believe that AMG considers the S63 to be a replacement for the S65, especially since it's at least $50,000 cheaper.

I have owned four AMG models, so I know they are high-strung. But compared with a third-party tuned car or a pure performance make like Ferrari, they are extremely reliable.

xecution

Obviously Mercedes thinks otherwise, thats why their posted numbers say that the S65 is 4.2 and the S600 is 4.5. Don't be mad cause you paid so much more money, have so much more horsepower and torque and you car is not that much faster

xecution

You know I actually agree with you on this one Tee except I haven't heard that the 65 will be discontinued, I did hear there will be no more 55. Anyways, It all seems crazy to debate the 65,55,63,600 etc. when they are all fast azz cars, shouldn't we debate these cars against there competitors like audi and BMW since the truth is Mercedes doesn't make these cars to compete against each other, they are made to compliment each other and satisfy differant MB customers wants. Most people don't care about speed so they buy the S550, some people want a good combination of speed and luxury so they buy the S600. some want max speed (or should I say horsepower bragging rights since we do have a speed limit in the USA ) and they go for the s63 or 65.

whoover

I'm far from mad. I paid less for a new S65 than many have paid for an S55 and way less than anyone will pay for an S63. Note that mine is a W220 and they are the bargains of the century in my opinion.

The posted numbers for all the 65s are very conservative. Anyone who owns one knows that. The rumored reason is to not embarrass the SLR, but I have no idea if that's the case.

Only someone who has never driven one would compare it with a 63. (The 600 comparison is a bit more sensible, but that's not really my topic.) The 0-60 time is really irrelevant. The difference is in the effortless delivery of power at any RPMs. You want to get a 65 to move, you tap the throttle. At any speed. You want to get a 63 to move, you floor it and downshift a couple of gears and wait a split second for the engine to scream.

Consider this: at 3,000 RPM an S63 produces 238 HP; at 3,000 RPM an S65 produces 442 HP. If you think that translates to a slight performance edge on the highway, we just have different notions of slight. My right foot thinks it's a qualitatively different experience, not one of degrees -- much less slight.

It's also the perfect powerplant for these big sedans, in my opinion. I love screaming engines in light sports cars -- but in an S-class, why? (Other than cost, of course.)

C240Style

I love all of your car choices. S600 is a great addition. And if you ever do have so much money you don't know what to do with it, I'd be more than happy to take a 360 off your hands

tee_tz

Wow, this is interesting... I guess Mercedes is going to have 2 AMG's in the line-up. A S63 and a S65. Personally, I'm lost.

S550 -$86,000
Engine: 5.5 V8
Power: 382 HP, 391 Torque
0-60mph: 5.4 sec.
Comments: Offers AMG Body styling - like the S63, not S65.

S600 - $140,000
Engine: 6.0 V12
Power: 510 HP, 612 Torque
0-60mph: 4.5 sec.
Comments: Doesn't offer AMG Body styling.

S65 - $182,000
Engine: 6.0 V12 Turbo
Power: 604 HP, 738 Torque
0-60mph: 4.2 sec.
Comments: For probably $30K less, you can have a S600 or S63 with almost the same performance and more luxury (in the S600 case).

S63 - $unknown
Engine: 6.2 V8
Power: 518HP, 465 Torque
0-60mph: 4.6 sec.
Comments: A cheaper S65 and almost the same performance! Looks almost identical.


I don't know -- what is Mercedes doing?? Does this make sense -- to me it looks like the S65 is less and less desirable.


Tee_Tz.

tee_tz

So are you saying: S600 > S63???

I don't get why you'd buy the S63 then (or why even sell it) - it's completely useless. I though it was something in between the S600 (luxury) and the S65 (very expensive). Now it seems like it's in between the S550 and S600. In that case they should just have an S600 Sport (w/ AMG styling - and AMG brakes, suspension, etc, etc).




Tee_Tz.

whoover

You're overthinking this. Clearly you're not in marketing . (By the way, in Europe there are way more models so our confusion is relatively mild.)

There's a base V-8 model (S550) and an upscale V-12 (S600). The S600 adds luxury and the V-12 driving experience, which is about effortless power delivery more than 0-60. The typical S600 driver doesn't drag, but likes being able to pass without exercising his right ankle too much. It's part of the luxury cachet, along with the baby-butt leather and wood. The S550 has adequate power, but the relative vibration of the V-8 at revs is the motor equivalent of the plastic trim and leatherette.

Both of these models come in AMG-tuned variants. Their characters aren't changed, just enhanced. You can't think of them as a single continuum -- they are two versions each of two models. It's a branched tree, not a road. The S65 has the baby-butt leather and wood, and even more of the effortless power. It also has an undetectable idle. But it happens to be able to spank all the other models. By how much isn't really important. The tap-the-gas responsiveness of the V-12 is more important because this car is part of the V-12 branch.

If someone finds the V-12 experience to be as amazing as I do, you consider the S600 and the S65 if you think the money is worth another 100+ ft-lbs, bigger brakes and better handling. If you're happy with the V-8 experience you consider the S550 and the S63 if you're into the extra power and handling. (An ABC-equipped S550 with sport package is closer in driving experience to an S63 than an S63 is to either V12.)

I personally would go with the ABC/Sport S550 or S600 or S65, depending on what I could afford. I'm not the only one to think the S63 will be a hard sell. And I drove (and loved) an S55 for three years before I traded it for the S65.

The bottom line is that there are multiple decision drivers, and the relative importance to the customer makes the choice less confounding than it would be if you tried to line the models up in a hierarchy.

Banka

We all know that Rolls Royce has the name but in Stuttgart at MB they know better! They produce the S-class. Altough a Ferrari is nice, Lamborghini makes the real Italian car. He won the battle that Enzo started by saying that Mr. Lamborghini only can produce tractors!!!

absent

What exactly is your point?

tee_tz

Actually Ferrari is the true racing car and has the racing heritage. So I'm not sure why you'd say Lamborghini is better than the Enzo.


Tee_Tz.