johnlovescar

The S is much better..............

rieger

I am not trying to convince Lexus is better, I am trying to say that Lexus is trying to compete in a different market than the S-Class, that the LS is not a POS or a Toyota that some MB owners say that it is, and that if MB wants to charge a premium for their vehicles than they should return it to the quality and reliabilty that MB used to make their cars. Maybe they have done that with their current generation of vehicles since it does look like reports that have come out in initial quality is very much improved, and I hope long term is the same.
Like my initial post was saying that if MB doesn't return the S-class back to the quality and reliability that MB was known for than the MB brand will only have the prestige and aura to rely on to sell cars and that won't last very long. All said and done it looks like management has come to realize what jdpower, consumer reports and MB owners have been saying about quality and reliability issues and have done something to improve quality of the cars, and maybe MB can also thank Lexus for pushing them for the improvement.
The main thing is that the Lexus LS is not targeted towards the german cars which are more targeted at being a drivers car. The Lexus LS is trying to target the wealthy asians or sheiks that have chaffeurs. That said it is no cadillac of old it still has some handling but not to the degree of the german cars and it is not because Lexus is incapable just that the LS is not targeted at this market. In the future maybe Lexus will make the LS more sporty for the North American market but in the meantime just because it is not geared towards the german car owners does not mean that this car is a POS as some of you have said it is.
Thank you Vraa for being fair in your warning to all members and just not me like some other administrators have done.

Nickerz

I agree...saying anything that Lexus makes or Toyota for that matter is a POS is just plain biased and ignorant b/c that would indicate they have poor quality issues among other issues - which they just don't.

I just got back from test driving a LS 460 (not the L) and I like all the gadgets it has but this one did not have the air-suspension and the ride could've been a lot smoother and acceleration was very disappointing, however, this is coming from a speed freak (i.e., E55). Yet I test drove the S550 immediately after (dealerships are across the street from one another) and the S550's acceleration has some punch! The S550 Definitely felt faster than the LS and overall more stable and a solid vehicle. The ride was great but that's not a fair comparison as the S550 has airmatic and the LS I test drove didn't have this option on the car. One thing I was very disappointed in was the fact that I'm 6'2 and I felt big in the LS. I put the drivers seat all the way back and this isn't how I drive but when I do this even in my E55 I CAN'T TOUCH THE PEDALS! Granted, I don't have much room in the back seat of my E55 when I do this and the LS - HOLY COW...it had TONS of room for the back seat passenger despite the driver's seat set all the way back. However, since there is SOOOOO much room in the LS, why wouldn't they allow the driver's seat to be moved back more than they do? Again the S550 you feel like you are in a BIG luxury vehicle. My wife is a little thing LOL and she said she feels tiny in the S and didn't get this feeling in the LS and thinks for a bigger car the LS didn't feel very big. Another gripe I have about the LS was the headliner was right over my head. Not much room there. Now to be fair...I didn't check to see if the seat was positioned all the way down. In the S550 - again, I just feel right, with plenty of room like I can really stretch out. Obviously this IS the case for the back seat of the LS as well.

So I've been thinking about getting rid of my E55 and stepping up to a bigger car. After test driving the LS, I can honestly say at this point, the LS is DEFINITELY not a car I will be considering. It will come down to the S or maybe I'll have to check out Audi's A8 or even S8! But I think the S8 got pretty bad reviews. I can't remember why but at any rate I'm glad I had the opportunity to test the two cars I was really considering, that being the LS 460 and the S550 back to back. My opinion is the S550 is DEFINITELY A CLEAR WINNER but this is MY opinion. One thing MB needs to look at more is the gadgets and stuff that Lexus has. I am glad that Lexus has forced its competition to raise the bar! This is something Lexus should be very proud of b/c even now and more so in the years to come, it is and WILL be a force to be reckoned with!

Nick

Germancar1

You're really splitting hairs to try and say that Lexus isn't competing with the Germans. Lexus themselves have said that the GS and IS compete with 5 and 3-Series BMWs. We all know the very reason for the LS ever being created was to compete with the S-Class. To try and say that Lexus doesn't compete with the Germans is IMO just an excuse because Lexus has stated over and over that Mercedes and now BMW is the target. Just because they haven't been able to do all the things they've boasted about doesn't mean it can all forgotten over a pile of excuses. The LS600hL was supposed to be a V12 competitor, not "certain V12s" competitors. Yet it doesn't even come close to "duplicating" the S600's performance, but it does more or less equal the performance of the 760Li and A8L W12. Again only half of the rhetoric was really met with real world results. The IS and GS have never given the 3 and 5-Series anything to worry about. Just being as fast doesn't cut it. BMWs aren't about raw speed. If Lexus isn't competing with the Germans then all you have left is Buick/Acura type cars, i.e. boring, fwd type cars. Some Lexus models like the ES do compete with those yawner brands, but the GS and IS surely do not.

The LS on the other hand competes with the S-Class, but what Lexus fans never get about the S-Class is that it provides the same level of ride comfort with better handling to boot, that is why the S has been unbeatable this time around. A cushy ride doesn't mean you can't have handling and that is why this time around the S-Class has won every major comparo between the 2.

M

Germancar1

Like is stated before Audi has a similar thing going on, but unlike Lexus Audi was its own brand and for the most part beyond their entry-level cars they don't share platforms with VWs like certain Lexi do with Toyotas. Lexus shares more models with their lesser brand (ES, GX, LX, RX) than Aud does (A3, TT).

No a LS600 isn't a "Toyota", but it is a Toyota made product. If the same goes for VW/Audi then the same has to go for Toyota/Lexus, especially since Lexus wasn't a brand of its own, only thought up a relatively short time ago. Audi at the very least was its own brand and was never just a rebadge job as many Lexus models were.

M

rieger

You forgot the Q7 which is the same as the toureg/cayenne. So half of the audi/lineup is also a volkswagen. It still doesn't mean that an Audi is a Volkswagen or a Lexus a Toyota. Before you go making some of these remarks you should go drive the cars first. Even though the ES is basically a Toyota they do drive slightly differently. A TT does not drive like a beetle even if they use the same platform. If you just don't understand this or don't want to understand this than that is your prerogative.
Lexus did say that they wanted the IS and GS to compete with BMW but obviously they will not be able to build a 3 or 5 series overnight as MB can also attest that neither the C or the E class can handle like the 3 or 5 series either. The LS600 is not geared towards the S-class but if you want to think so go right ahead. If lexus wanted to make the Ls600 compete with the S600 than they could have simply just develop a gas guzzling v12 in the LS600 but that wasn't the reason for the ls600 which was to use a V8 and a electric motor to build the performance of a v12 engine. It may not have exceeded the MB V12 but it was a good effort that no one else has accomplished. If you don't understand this concept than not much anyone can say to make you understand something so simple. If you want to look at engine technology than MB is way behind. They just keep on putting higher displacement engine into their cars or adding superchargers etc. But if you look at BMW and Lexus and Audi they are producing more hp or same hp with smaller motors.
And if you think the Lexus/Toyota relationship is a detriment than you also go right ahead because Toyota has lots of $$$.

Germancar1

No they aren't. Half of the Audi lineup is not comprised of VWs. The only Audis that share VW chassis/platforms are the TT, A3 and as you say Q7. The A6, A8, R8, A5/S5 and new A4 are not VWs.

Are you kidding me? This from a person who says the most ridiculous things on this board? I've driven every car we've talked about here except for a S8 and a LS600hL. A Camry and ES drive exactly the same and only a jaded Lexus fan would say they don't. Both are quiet, numb, lifeless, and boring as hell. The Lexus only more so. Where is the difference? What nicer leather and real wood in the Lexus? If that is what makes a Lexus a Lexus then I'll pass.

Again, what are you talking about? Do you even know? Where did I say that a TT and Beetle drive the same? What you don't understand is that a TT has never, ever equaled a Boxster or Z4 because of its common platform shared with far more pedestrian vehicles. The new one still doesn't. You can only do so much with a FWD platform whose engine is hung out over the front axle line. I don't know how else to explain this to you. Why are you defending Audi when no one, especially me would ever say something as ridiculous as that about an Audi? Of course a TT doesn't drive like a Bettle, 2 different cars, but on the other hand to suggest there is some huge difference between an ES and a Camry is equally ridiculous. They're both "I wanna forget I have to actually drive" sedans. The TT and Bettle don't share the same design/market brief.


Again, nothing but excuses. The C-Class yes Mercedes has stated that BMW is the target and they've never been able to beat the 3er, so you're right there. However you couldn't be more wrong about the E-Class. Here is where your own advice comes in at, drive an E and then a 5 and tell me that Mercedes was trying to build a 5-Series. Mercedes hasn't said anything about the E trying to beat the 5-Series in sportiness, the E is way more of a luxury car with some sporting overtones. The 5 is the opposite. This is why these 2 lead this segment by far.

Pure and utter BS. Everything about the LS from 1990 has been done to topple the S-Class.

Guy do you not know your own brand? They stated the LS600h was designed to equal V12 performance with the economy of a V8. Who the hell makes a V12 in a luxury sedan nowadays? Mercedes, BMW and Audi. Lexus doesn't even consider Audi competition, only BMW and Mercedes. They did match the 760Li on paper, but they didn't come close to the S600. There is no amount of excuse making possible to slight this. The LS' main competitor for the previous 17 years has been the S-Class and now you're going to sit here and tell us that Lexus didn't target the S-Class for their best-ever LS model. I can't believe anyone in the known world would believe such utter nonsense!


Doesn't even match, much less "exceed" The S600 has always been head and shoulders above anything else in this class. That said, the LS600hL is a techo tour de force, no argument from me there.


It seems to me you're the one that doesn't even understand the purpose of the car you're defending here. You're not even clear on what their goals were or who the competition is. One minute you say that Mercedes is not the target, yet the mission of the LS600hL was to equal V12 performance. Well I'd like to know who else builds a V12 beside BMW, Audi and Mercedes. Now you're going to tell me that Lexus settled on competing with Audi and BMW and not the brand which has been their whole reason for being, Mercedes? No one at Lexus USA in their right mind would agree with you about the LS600hL not being aimed at the S-Class. You'd have to be insane to think that it isn't. When you really look at it on paper the LS600hL actually makes a great alternative to a loaded S550 in most areas except for trunk space.

However, the problem with the LS600hL is that when you look at what it cost, the minimal (if any) increase in MPG, limited trunk room, the LS600h simply doesn't make sense over loaded LS460L. There isn't even any real performance gain over the LS460L.

Really? What engine did Mercedes add a supercharger to? What engine in the S-Class did Mercedes add a supercharger too? Guy you're just as clueless about Mercedes as you are Lexus. Mercedes doesn't even use superchargers anymore except for 2 models, the SL55 and G55, neither of which have anything to do with this thread. Mercedes' V8 are just as up to date as anything from Lexus with Lexus' only real advantage is direct-injection. There are no superchargers in the S-Class. Do yo u know anything at all about Mercedes' V8s? Your post indicates you don't.

Really? Again you seem to be cluess as to why Mercedes engines are larger? Do you know what torque is? Mercedes goes for torque and if you look at the 5.5L V8 or AMG 6.2L V8 you'll see that they outpower and more importantly out-torque all comparable BMW and Audi V8s and V10s. You don't get torque with smaller engines that need to be reved for their power.


Spoken like a true Toyota fan. This is what seperates Toyota fans from real car enthusiasts. Nobody gives a rats **** about anything like this and from a business standpoint only a fool would think Lexus' relationship to Toyota is a "detriment". It has what put Lexus over, at least in this country. Toyota is the best thing Lexus has going for it.

However when it comes to the design side of the equation it has been a detriment to people who actually like to be entertained by their vehicles, i.e. enthusiasts. Lexus and Toyota has produced nothing but yawners for years because Lexus' philosophy on cars doesn't differ enough from Toyota's. If it does I've love to hear how it does. Both are quiet to a fault, smooth riding, reliable to a fault and completely inoffensive in styling, ride and handling. Lexus is just an more luxurious, better equipped extension of that same theme. The only exceptions to this are the IS, IS-F, and the upcoming LF-A. Maybe, arguably the GS. That said, it is no sheer coincidence that the cars that made the Lexus franchise what it is today are the RX, ES an LS, nothing sporting about them. All smoother, quieter, better equippped extensions of the Toyota theme. Forget whether or not they're Toyotas or not, they aren't even mildly different from a "Toyota" in purpose or function. If you feel that they are I'd like to hear how they are so different. You could blindfold someone and put them in a Avalon and then a ES350 and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

M

pmb600

Just to add to Germancar1's comments....not sure if someone mentioned this or not, I can't keep up with all the replies anymore.

The name LS600h alone shows that they are trying to take a direct stab at Mercedes. Why 600? Why not call it the LS500 since it has a 5.0 liter engine. The LS460 has a 4.6 liter and they rightly named the car to reflect that. For years the 600 name has been known to be the best sedan in the industry and Mercedes-Benz flagship. They wouldn't have called their car the LS600h if they didn't want to drive this point home.

I for one can't stand stuff like this. When Lexus does this it makes them look like a child sticking their tonge out at another kid on the playground. Grow up Lexus and find an identiy of your own.

Germancar1

Bingo! Exactly, they want to have the same prestige and clout as a S600 so they named it the LS600. The Lexus rhetoric will be that it duplicates the performance of a 6.0L V12 hence the 600 in the name. True if you count only Audi and BMW's V12s.

M

MB Fanatic

Paragraphs might help a bit rieger.

Nickerz

Holy smokes! I thought I was reading another debate between Improviz owning M&M but instead it's Germancar1 owning rieger!

rieger

This is what you are saying:
1. Lexus cars are boring to drive or atleast the LS series
2. Lexus has always been gunning for the S-class
3. Lexus LS600L doesn't match MB V12

Okay I always said that the Mb is more of a drivers car and that the LS is not and you confirm that the LS is not by saying it is boring to drive. So obviously they are not similiar cars. If you don't see the fault in your arguement than not much anyone can say. What you don't think that Lexus could make stiffer springs or put more air in the air shocks and use fatter tires and beef up the rest of the suspension? Like I said they are not going after the same market and you have said that the LS is boring to drive and the MB is not so tell me besides your labelling idea how you can tell me that Lexus is gunning for the big S-class.
The LS600L is labelled as such because the consumer understands that the 600 designation by MB and BMW as flagship cars and happens to have a v12. Lexus uses this designation because that is just the way it works and they are not going to change it overnight so why bother. If you think it is just because they want it to be in competition with the S600 than get off your high horse and should realize that the world doesn't revolve around MB.
Lexus said that this engine gives the performance of a V12 engine using a V8 and a electric motor. It never said anything about equaling the MB V12. The only reason it doesn't equal the MB V12 is because MB has put turbo's into its low tech SOHC V12. Take away those turbo's and MB's V12 won't even come close to BMW, Audi, or even this lexus engine. Look at MB's SOHC and others DOHC engines and tell me aside from the turbo's that they slapped on how the S600 engine is superior. Also you can look at MB's 350 engine in the C-class and E-class and compare it to Lexus 350 engine and see that neither the torque nor the Hp can compete with lexus engine. The Lexus 460 engine is almost 1000cc smaller and yet produces the same hp and almost as much torque albeit at a higher rpm but still it is easy to see that the MB engines don't compare to the high tech BMW engines nor the smaller but high tech lexus engines.
You also said that the ES,RX, and LS is what made lexus they are today and that those are boring cars. Exactly then why do you again think that Lexus wants to instill more handling in to their cars if that is not what the customers want obviously. MB owners such as you may want more handling but other customers might not care just like a BMW owner think that MB cars handle like crap. It is obvious that what made Lexus a success is Luxury, technological advanced gadgets, and reliability not handling so obviously your argument that Lexus wants to be like MB is false or inaccurate.
And you driving a MB car doesn't make you a car enthusiast if you think so that surely you are not. Just because I am defending the Lexus brand doesn't make me any less a car person than you since I also own a E500. So before you go insulting others look in the mirror and notice that you are driving a clk drop top which is the farthest car which a car enthusiast would drive.
Really don't get your argument when you are basically saying that Lexus is boring and the S-class is fun to drive, then say that lexus is going after the S-class just doesn't make sense.

whoover

The NY Times review that I linked in this thread about four years ago made it clear that this engine doesn't compete with the MB V8, and barely competes with Lexus's own straight V8. And what kind of nonsense is "Take away those turbo's and MB's V12 won't even come close to BMW, Audi, or even this lexus engine." What counts is the engine's performance. In AMG-tuned form this low-tech, three-valve fossil develops 738 foot-pounds, with over 500 from 1,500 RPM to redline. A simple ECU remapping will get another 100 foot-pounds and over 700 HP. Saying that it's nothing without its turbos is like saying a Veryon won't come close to a Lexus if you take off its wheels. Who cares if it's SOHC if it reliably makes 600 HP with a torque curve that looks like a square wave?

pmb600

Rieger, once again your argument is filled with holes:

Ok, so if they are "not similar cars" then who exactly is Lexus targeting with this product? The only choices for a large luxury sedan over $100,000 (a category in which the Lexus LS600L fits into whether you like it or not) are Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, and Maybach. Clearly the last three are not direct competitors of the Lexus, so we are left with Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi customers or more specifically S600, 760iL, and A8 W12 customers.

You say that Lexus "never claimed to equal the MB V12." Ok fine, Mercedes now uses turbo charging so if you want to ignore that competitor we can for the moment. So lets compare to the only two left, the BMW and Audi both with naturally aspirated engines, which by your definition and standards should be a fair comparison. Lexus claims to "provide the power" of a V12 but it doesn't even beat the other two taking Mercedes out of the equation. The Audi A8 and BMW 760iL both have more horsepower, torque, and better 0-60 times. Now perhaps they meant that their V8 hybrid engine beats out V12s from 10 years ago. Wow, what a groundbreaking acchievement! The LS doesn't even acheive earth shattering fuel savings. The savings on the highway are non-existant and in the city it only gets about 5 mpg better than the BMW and the Audi. It gets about 7 better than the MB, but as you point out, the Mercedes-Benz S600 engine is much more powerful and has turbocharging, so it would be unfair to compare the fuel comsumption of the two. ...Maybe you are right, LS600 customers are different--they are more arrogant and self-important because they will buy this car just because it has the little Hybrid badge on it and they can pretend they are so much better than everyone else.

Earth to rieger, in trying to disagree with me, you just proved my point exactly. They are using the 600 moniker because they know that 600 is the top of the line at Mercedes, I guess you can slightly argue BMW as well, but that is not as accurate since they use 760, most customers wouldn't make the association.

For over 40 years 600 has been a symbol for Mercedes, starting with the most luxurious flagship limos in the 1960s. Lexus has named every other car they make with a number that reflects the displacement of the engine, so why is this one different? Becuase they want to capture the prestige that Mercedes has gained with this "trademark" over the years. (And don't start about my use of trademark, I put it in quotes because I am making a point that it is associate with Mercedes, not that they legally have a trademark on the nomenclature.)

If you don't understand this, I assume you have never had a marketing class or worked in a business that sells products or services to the public. It is all about perception and creating an image in the customer's mind. Lexus is trying to do that by capitalizing on the name which Mercedes has used for years.

Um, I'm sorry, are we now discussing the V6 engines? I think everyone here would agree that all the other competitors have beat out Mercedes 3.5 liter V6 engine (BMW 335, IS350, G35). Mercedes will once again update their V6 offering in this category as they have proved time and time again that they will not be beat in the engine category.


Unfortunately you may be right here. The majority of American drivers are more concerned with just having a good name and a comfy seat to sit their large behinds in. In this regard, Lexus fits their requirements well because like the other Japanese brands they have offered good features at better prices than the Germans. This is nothing to be proud of. Drivers in Europe and around the world feel differently than most Americans on many things including driving preferences, so this is another reason that Lexus will probably not see widespread success like the German brands have had globally.

Um, again I ask how old are you that you are now going to try to reinforce your argument by insulting other members cars.

The end.

rieger

I am not insulting other members I am just responding to other members saying that Toyota or Lexus owners aren't car enthusiasts just because they have or like Toyota/Lexus cars.
"Spoken like a true Toyota fan. This is what seperates Toyota fans from real car enthusiasts."
So before you go telling me that I am insulting other read first of other postings. Like I have said many times I don't start it but if you guys keep going than so will I and we all can get banned." I have stuck to the argument and it is one of you that starts with the insults then come back like little kids saying that I start it.
If the S-Class is a far superior car, sportier handling, and everything else that is gods gift to the human race than explain to me why the LS is having some success at all? Are you people trying to be so arrogant to tell me that all Lexus owners are stupid?

Germancar1

Correct, except for a properly speced IS350 and the upcoming LF-A.

Hell yeah. What person in the known world doesn't know this. The LS has been literally a carbon copy of the S-Class for the past 16 years. Either in styling as was the first one and the almost complete duplicate the LS430, or in details.

Correct again, it most certainly doesn't. Doesn't even come close.


What? Did you actually read this before you posted it? Yes Mercedes' are more of a drivers car than a Lexus, but neither is a BMW. Clearly you're lost here. A Lexus and a Mercedes are more similar than they are dissimilar. They both are skewed towards the luxury side of the equation. I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp. A Mercedes is simply more stable at speed, better in the corners, usually faster (but not always) and they steer better. Mercedes' have a much more connected to the road feel and their ride is more buttoned down than a Lexus. That said, neither Lexus or Mercedes are BMWs. Again what you don't get here is that the LS was patterned after the S-Class and that at the time of the original LS, Lexus set out to make a car the rode better, was quieter etc. etc. which is why it has the rep of being a overblown Toyota. That practice is still in play today, but the problem is Mercedes' cars have become more refined while not sacraficing any of their roadworthiness. Lexus still does the poor handling thing with a creamy ride while Mercedes gives you the same or better ride with better handling/steering and a much more planted feel at speed.

Which is exactly what the offer as an option on the LS460, a so-called Touring or whatever its called, i.e. sportier model. Just like they did with the LS430, but as with the LS430 this model is never, ever tested because it isn't bought by anyone in real life. Lexus buyers couldn't care less about sport. Meanwhile a good number of S-Class buyers go for ABC suspension and the AMG kit with the bigger wheels etc. Read any one of the European reviews of the LS and you'll get what I'm talking about when it comes to the ride part. When Lexus firms things up the ride goes all to pieces, unlike a Mercedes.

Pure BS. The number 1 competitor for the LS is the S-Class has been since day one. If you missed this you must have been somewhere other than earth from 1990 onward. Again, for the umpteenth time, neither is a BMW, but the S is slightly sportier drive than the LS, it isn't a night and day difference. Why do you think both of these cars lead the segment in sales year after year? Sport sedans neither are not, one is just sportier than the other.

Really? Gee Lexus' claim that is labeled as such because it provides the same performance as a 6.0L V12 must not be valid, though their own people have been quoted as stating as such. Same for the RX400h, it is called that because it is supposed to provide the same performance as a 4.0L V8. For a Lexus fan you're exceptionally light on facts about your own fav brand.

Then again you have a point, because naming it a 600 makes the uninformed think it is a true equal to a S600, which on many, many levels it clearly isn't. Fraud is what I'd call it.

Wow, the BS statement of the year! Lexus' whole being was to tackle Mercedes, with the emphasis now on BMW in certain areas. Dude, "Lexis", later sued to make them change it to "Lexus" was thought up during a Toyota board meeting in 1983 to build a better Mercedes. I though you Lexus guys knew the history of your brand? True in in later years the whole Lexus brand doesn't revolve around Mercedes, but it was brought to be because of Mercedes. Hell anyone that knows squat about Lexus will tell you that the mission statement read "to build a better car than Mercedes" or a better Mercedes.

True, and again rieger I clearly stated that it does that at least on paper concerning Audi and BMW. The problem comes when you try to sit here and say that Mercedes-Benz isn't Lexus' competition. That is bull and everyone in the known world knows this.

True, but it is what it is. No buyers are complaining, only driving. Mercedes' V12 is outdated, no argument from me there, but it gets the job done better than any other luxury car V12 on the market, especially when tweaked by AMG.

You do realize that you're talking about 2 different types of engine design here and then posing a question about the S600. I already answered your question about the S600's engine above.

True again. I unlike you have common sense enough to know when Mercedes is licked. The 3.5L V6 is short on power compared to a list of competitiors now, Infiniti, BMW, Lexus, and even Cadillac all have 300hp mills in this class. Mercedes is behind. No shame for me to admit that.

Here is where you lack of engine design shows right through. Yes the Lexus engine is much smaller and makes basically the same hp, but the torque isn't the same, nor does it make torque at low RPM like the Benz does. Why do you think they came up with 8 gears to move the thing? The engine has to be kept on the boil to make similar performance. Now I'll await your technical reasons as to why MB's engines don't compare to Lexus engines.


You missed the entire point, as usual. Re-read my original post on those models. It was about Lexuses being Toyotas, not performance. Gee whiz, rieger.

A lot of BMW owners think just that, or used to until recently, depending on the Benz in question.


Again, rieger another clueless statement. Lexus' tech (other than Hybrids) may has well had "by Mercedes-Benz" written on the side of each part. Lexus doesn't innovate squat or come up with anything first, again other than hybrids which is something all together new compared to Lexus' start in 1990. Again rieger, who the hell said that Lexus wanted to be like Mercedes because of Mercedes' handling? That is yet the most ridiculous statement that was never made. You are so confused it isn't funny anymore. Lexus is about luxury and so is Mercedes, again neither is a BMW. Earth to rieger, uh....Mercedes-Benz didn't make their name on handling. What blows your feeble argument out the water is that Mercedes made their name on the very things you just said, and I quote " Luxury, technological advanced gadgets, and reliability", just things Mercedes is/was known for, obviously reliability has taken a huge hit in recent years.

THE SAME THINGS YOU JUST SAID THAT LEXUS MADE THEIR NAME ON "Luxury, technological advanced gadgets, and reliability" ARE THE SAME THINGS MERCEDES HAD A LOCK ON FOR SO MANY YEARS, YET YOU TURN AROUND AND SAY THAT LEXUS DIDN'T TARGET MERCEDES-BENZ.

Uh...hello...which is it? They can't have the same brief and not be competitors! Also, since Mercedes has been around since 1886, surely Lexus is the one doing the targeting since Mercedes' legend or myth was already, branded, packaged and sold to millions of happy customers by 1990.

You make this too easy. Your arguments are so full of bs and wholes to the point where you confuse yourself. Again a serious lack of automotive knowledge 101 if you think Mercedes made their name on handling. Uh..that would be BMW. The Legend or Myth of Mercedes-Benz was made on quality, durability, safety, advanced engineering, techinical innovation and many, many firsts in the industry in to the market technology. Lexus has managed to make their name on about 3 of those, quality, durability and luxury. Innovation is something Lexus hasn't ever, ever, done outside of the hybrid. Pretty meaningless when you consider the basic safety blueprint for the automobile, most of its current safety systems and design, and many other techinical breakthroughs were done by everyone else, namely Mercedes, Volvo and even Cadillac. They did the hard work, Lexus didn't do squat but sit down and design a car around Mercedes and BMW's weaknesses at the time. Really hard work!

Nothing like a little personal jab when you're run low on facts. Did I say I was a car enthusiast because I drive a Mercedes? Again, reaching for something that was never said. I'm a car enthusiast because I like cars in general and I don't bs over the flaws of any brand like you do with Lexus.

Correct, it doesn't....it is your thinking that Mercedes made their name on handling is what instantly, emphaticallly, categorically disqualifies you from even being close to being one. Not only don't you know much about Lexus, you know even less about other makes. No enthusiast or "car person" can possibly live there.

Again, reaching... What person besides you would think that a 2003 CLK430 is the end-all car for all car enthusiasts. By the same token do you think a LS or a E500 is? My driving a CLK is the by-product of not having CL63 or SL55 money. Also where is this enthusiasts only car list? I'd love to read it and see if any Lexus models are present.

Because you're confused as to what the 2 cars are. You also seem to think that just because one car is sportier than the other that they don't compete. Surely your view of the car market can't be that dry and simplistic? You don't think people shop and compare the LS to the 7-Series at least some of the time? Ditto for the ES and the 3-Series, though the 2 cars couldn't be more different? Every buyer, in fact most buyers are not car people as you say or car enthusiasts and they look at dissimilar cars all the time.

BMWs are sporty as hell, but most people who buy them don't drive them anywhere near the edge of their capabilities.

The fact of the matter is Lexus was created to fight Mercedes. This was stated over and over during their early years before they branched out with vehicles like the RX, and secondly all luxury car brands are competitors. People shop BMW/Lexus/Mercedes all day long as they are the premier 3 right now. To say that Lexus doesn't target Mercedes (and now BMW) is just plain out of touch with reality. In fact it is ridiculous.

M

Germancar1

You've done just that for months. Mercedes owners are just plain stupid for buying a has-been brand with ****-poor quality. Over and over we've had to read this backed up with the most clueless of posts about nothing.

Let me make this clear, the fact that you seem to champion Lexus and Toyota and talk about how much money they make does cancel you out as a car enthusiast in my book. People who love cars couldn't care less about all that bs, long as the company in question is healthy and can turn out great cars and back them at the dealer level. A car "enthusiast" IMO is one that loves car in general and can respect something about most cars, among other things. You on the other hand can't even admit when Lexus isnt' the end-all at something or in a particular category. Your only purpose here is to rag on Mercedes-Benz, again not enthusiast behavior. You only show up when something bad is said about Lexus.

The LS has the success it has because it is a great alternative, offereing everything that the S-Class offers to the uninformed and people who just plain don't want a Mercedes. Oh and the other half of the reason as to why it has been such a success is because it has always cost a whole lot less, until now. The LS460L that C&D tested was somewhere over 90K. You'd have to be nuts to pay that much for a Lexus with cars like the S-Class only being a 10K more or a car like A8L being less, IMO of course.

No need for anyone be banned unless you go off the deep end with all the childish insults again. This usually happens when your arguement runs out of steam or has been poked full of holes.

M

Germancar1

pmb600 - Excellent post.

M

pmb600

How true this is! I have driven the IS several times and I was shocked at how rough the suspention is!

shadowgriffen

Damn does this thread really need 5 paragraph answers??

Lexus is a good company, it will NEVER have the prestige of the three point star.

Cmon, what kinda car was princess vespa riding in the year 4055?? I thought so

edspider

I've never owned an S-Class. It's too big for my tastes and more importantly too expensive. I love luxury and have owned 2 LS430 Ultra's(2001,2004) and 2 E350's (1998,2006). I've been pleased with the fit, finish and quality of all of them. In my book they are equal cars. However, right now, I like the E a lot more. It drives differently. It feels more secure even though I know both cars have excellent handling. I also think the ambiance in the E is more elegant and refined than in the LS.

When the current version of the LS came out, I checked it out. I won't even test drive one. It felt too big and I thought the interior looked boring. A cheap LED clock. Oversized CD slot. Trapazoidal a/c vents. It just didn't move me.

I think the older LS competed well with the E, but the new LS and of course the LS600 compete well with the new S-Class.

Ormond2004

I drove the Lexus 600 over the weekend. While it was nice, it didn't seem to drive much differently than a regular LS. It is plusher inside, but not more rewarding to drive, IMHO.

I couldn't see trading my Audi for it. The S63 is much more tempting.

nanotech

I think the LS600h L is an INCREDIBLE car.

Ofcourse us MB enthusiasts on an MB board may not think so, but the market it is intended for will.

That being said, it can't reach the status profile of an S-class or a 7-series....atleast not yet.

Though I believe the LS600h L is more technologically advanced, has the quietest ride ever, and could probably be the most reliable in the luxury segment, it is still not a "benz."

I for one like both the interior and the exterior styling...though some are right in that you can imagine it looking like a blown up Avalon in some ways (which I think Toyota gave the Avalon a HUGE improvement over the previous one). The problem is that Lexus is yet to find its core design values, when you see when it simply feels like they put together a lot of the best ideas from other cars, from new concept cars and some of their own styling to build the car. Even though the end result may look amazing, it doesn't give Lexus its own distinctive look so that it can start building a recognizable brand.

As for the handling, I admit, its not a german car...but then again its main goals are to a super-smooth luxury sedan, not a two-seater roadster, so I can understand. Maybe if they came up with a L-tuned version (similar to the AMG we have) they might be able to overcome it....problem with that may be, however, that the "l-tuned" team may end up being whimpy and not really do to the car what it really needs to handle like a bmw.

As far as the status thing goes, it will probably take a few more generations of the LS being hailed as the most reliable, most technologically advanced, and most powerful (in its class)...along with them finding and sticking to some core design values....to beat bmw and benz.

At this point I have to say that in making a purchasing decision I would be comparing a loaded LS600h L to a loaded S550 (not the s63 amg nor the s600 because they really are more powerful and much more expensive and so don't compare in the same class).....and I don't care for audi's styling and waiting for a new bimmer 7 to come if I am going to include it also.

Dema

I am not MB enthusiast. I am just looking for a car which will appeal me whatever badge it has. Lexus isn't appealing at all, I tried to figure out why people like it, but still have any clue.
Regarding LS600L, spent a plenty time with it, drove it, looked in technologies. Nothing. No rocket science is there.