What do u guys think of new 2008 Lexus LS600?
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 18,414
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From: West Michigan
2007 E63
AsianML can you read. I always said if people want to start with insults than I will retaliate and I don't care who it's directed at as long as there is a post someone insulting someone such as Dr.ortho has repeatedly done than I will retaliate. So don't give me your crap. I don't think a forum is for insults such as the ones ortho posts so if he can give it than he can take it until he stops the insults. Insult lexus or mb not a problem but another human = problem.
You insult him, he insults you. He insults you, you insult him. It's a full circle. It'll never end unless the bigger man stops.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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He can be the bigger man if he wants because someone like ortho will not stop. I hate when people like to take cheap shots just because they are on the internet. Bet you he wouldn't say such things if this was in person. Throughout the thread he has always comeback to insult someone or someones car even though that person is just putting there opinions on this thread. This thread lasted this long because of differing opinions and if everyone wanted to just talk about what a great car the w221 is than this would be a short thread ( you know what I mean this is not meant as a cheap shot).
Newbie
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11
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From: Colorado, USA
'13 S550V4, '12 911 Turbo S, '10 Range Rover S/C, '11 Cayenne T
In 1990, when Lexus burst upon the scene with the extraordinary LS400, the world witnessed a tour de force in marketing and technical execution. The car was positioned between the e and sel classes, and in my opinion, made the 420SEL, its competitor at the time, look ponderous and passe. New standards were established in terms of interior design, quality, performance and value. It was generally assumed that Toyota substantially underpriced the model in order to establish a customer base.
This is definitely not the case with the LS600h. Rather than bursting on the scene, Lexus stumbles onto the scene, with a vehicle that their marketers hype competes with the 12-cyl German hardware. This is a corporate misfire, a misstep, colossal faux pas, a gaffe Joe Biden could be proud of.
From Edmund's review:
"Still, this car is hard to justify on its merits. It's no quicker or more refined than its far cheaper, conventional brother, the LS 460 L, and it has a smaller trunk. Even its fuel economy advantage is conditional at best."
The trunk is only 11ft**3 because of the batteries, and the thing weighs more than 5300 lbs. While it's one of the better looking lexi, Lexus has never understood how to design seductive beauty into its cars. If you really wanted the Lexus experience, get a loaded LS460, which incidentally has a better power-to-weight ratio.
Then there's the BIG LIE, that the LS600h has the performance of a 12-cyl German car. Huh? Which 12-cyl are they thinking of, the Mercedes s600 which thoroughly blows it away, the BMW or Audi (admittedly a w12), which also would leave the LS in the dust. Certainly not the Bentley. I can't imagine an intelligent, wealthy person that would buy it.
Clearly, the corporate/marketing people imposed their will on the devoloment team: You will have a hybrid LS with horsepower matching the BMW 760 for announcement by 4/2007. And as expected, they are going to get an uninspired blunder of a product.
This is definitely not the case with the LS600h. Rather than bursting on the scene, Lexus stumbles onto the scene, with a vehicle that their marketers hype competes with the 12-cyl German hardware. This is a corporate misfire, a misstep, colossal faux pas, a gaffe Joe Biden could be proud of.
From Edmund's review:
"Still, this car is hard to justify on its merits. It's no quicker or more refined than its far cheaper, conventional brother, the LS 460 L, and it has a smaller trunk. Even its fuel economy advantage is conditional at best."
The trunk is only 11ft**3 because of the batteries, and the thing weighs more than 5300 lbs. While it's one of the better looking lexi, Lexus has never understood how to design seductive beauty into its cars. If you really wanted the Lexus experience, get a loaded LS460, which incidentally has a better power-to-weight ratio.
Then there's the BIG LIE, that the LS600h has the performance of a 12-cyl German car. Huh? Which 12-cyl are they thinking of, the Mercedes s600 which thoroughly blows it away, the BMW or Audi (admittedly a w12), which also would leave the LS in the dust. Certainly not the Bentley. I can't imagine an intelligent, wealthy person that would buy it.
Clearly, the corporate/marketing people imposed their will on the devoloment team: You will have a hybrid LS with horsepower matching the BMW 760 for announcement by 4/2007. And as expected, they are going to get an uninspired blunder of a product.
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I agree with the assessment on the 600h. I would save the money and buy a ls460 or ls460l instead. Since this car is not made to be a sports car no need for 438hp. The 4.6 v8 is more than enough for cruising.
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I don't think Lexus fans will ever accept that the MB cars are better, while MB fans can't accept that Lexus vehicles are better.
Like little kids fighting over whose toy is better on the playground.
But my vote goes to the LS600h, since it produces less emissions, while offering the performance since after seeing Al Gore's film really changed the way I see cars and how the performance really kills the environment.
However, I'd definitely go with the S-class if the MB did offer another alternative source of energy (like the hybrid) for the S other than diesel since I do believe diesel engines generate a lot of noise like the VW Jetta Diesel.
Like little kids fighting over whose toy is better on the playground.
But my vote goes to the LS600h, since it produces less emissions, while offering the performance since after seeing Al Gore's film really changed the way I see cars and how the performance really kills the environment.
However, I'd definitely go with the S-class if the MB did offer another alternative source of energy (like the hybrid) for the S other than diesel since I do believe diesel engines generate a lot of noise like the VW Jetta Diesel.
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From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
That's because they are not 
They convienently neglect to tell people about the increased energy and waste materials that result from the manufacture of hybrid batteries. I am not an expert on this subject, I just have read several things indicating that there is still much to learn and that before everyone runs out and buys a hybrid they need to understand that the verdict is still not in on hybrid vs. conventional engines.
This is purely my speculation, but I feel that auto makes are taking advantage for consumers need to feel "environmentally conscious" by agressively marketing their hybrid products. Most consumers will not attempt to understand all the ramifications and technicalities of hybrid cars, they will look at the slightly increased gas mileage numbers and be won over. They will feel smug and happy driving around their hybrid SUVs and cars looking down at everyone else who is "killing" the environment. If I'm not mistaken there are also tax advantages for businesses.
DaimlerChrylser CEO Dieter Zetsche did mention in passing the possibility of an S-Class hybrid down the line. Also your statement about diesels would make me believe you have not read anything about or driven a modern Mercedes-Benz diesel. You should read about the new Bluetec diesel engines from Mercedes, they will soon be 50 state legal and provide increased gas mileage, smooth powerful performance, and low emissions thanks to the recent change to ultra low sulfur diesel which has less than 15 parts per million of sulfur (previously diesel fuel could have 500 ppm). This technology is so promising that other auto makes will be buying the technology from DaimlerChrysler.
This is purely my speculation, but I feel that auto makes are taking advantage for consumers need to feel "environmentally conscious" by agressively marketing their hybrid products. Most consumers will not attempt to understand all the ramifications and technicalities of hybrid cars, they will look at the slightly increased gas mileage numbers and be won over. They will feel smug and happy driving around their hybrid SUVs and cars looking down at everyone else who is "killing" the environment. If I'm not mistaken there are also tax advantages for businesses.
DaimlerChrylser CEO Dieter Zetsche did mention in passing the possibility of an S-Class hybrid down the line. Also your statement about diesels would make me believe you have not read anything about or driven a modern Mercedes-Benz diesel. You should read about the new Bluetec diesel engines from Mercedes, they will soon be 50 state legal and provide increased gas mileage, smooth powerful performance, and low emissions thanks to the recent change to ultra low sulfur diesel which has less than 15 parts per million of sulfur (previously diesel fuel could have 500 ppm). This technology is so promising that other auto makes will be buying the technology from DaimlerChrysler.
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Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 18,414
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
2007 E63
I don't think Lexus fans will ever accept that the MB cars are better, while MB fans can't accept that Lexus vehicles are better.
Like little kids fighting over whose toy is better on the playground.
But my vote goes to the LS600h, since it produces less emissions, while offering the performance since after seeing Al Gore's film really changed the way I see cars and how the performance really kills the environment.
However, I'd definitely go with the S-class if the MB did offer another alternative source of energy (like the hybrid) for the S other than diesel since I do believe diesel engines generate a lot of noise like the VW Jetta Diesel.
Like little kids fighting over whose toy is better on the playground.
But my vote goes to the LS600h, since it produces less emissions, while offering the performance since after seeing Al Gore's film really changed the way I see cars and how the performance really kills the environment.
However, I'd definitely go with the S-class if the MB did offer another alternative source of energy (like the hybrid) for the S other than diesel since I do believe diesel engines generate a lot of noise like the VW Jetta Diesel.
http://reports.equitystory.com/cgi-b...reifend-umwelt
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom...0-0-0-0-0.html
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 14
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From: NY
2014 E350
Got any sales figures to back this up because it sounds like BS to me. Lexus is no more popular than Mercedes or BMW and in fact they probably aren't as popular. The Lexus LS isn't the only car that gives a smooth, quiet, comfortable ride. This whole mindset or implication that Lexus is the only car capable of doing this is just plain bull. A S-Class rides just as good if not better and it handles better also. BMW, different story, not as quiet and certainly not as smooth, but Mercedes surely is if not more so and it doesn't lean and keel over when asked to change directions like a Lexus does, while still providing a heavenly ride.
M
M
February 2007
"Flagship":
"LS" - 2423
S-Class - 2128
7-series - 1015
XJ - 351
A8/S8 - 262
Q45 - 5
Phaeton - 4
PHP Code:
MERCEDES-BENZ
Sales -- February 2007
Model February '07 February '06 Monthly % YTD 2007 YTD 2006 Yearly %
C-CLASS 3,868 2,976 30.0% 7,796 6,074 28.4%
E-CLASS 3,053 2,310 32.2% 6,428 4,775 34.6%
S-CLASS 2,128 3,360 -36.7% 4,206 4,283 -1.8%
CL-CLASS 231 45 413.3% 489 113 332.7%
SL-CLASS 356 542 -34.3% 725 1,070 -32.2%
CLK-CLASS 1,255 1,911 -34.3% 2,282 3,037 -24.9%
SLK-CLASS 386 701 -44.9% 782 1,320 -40.8%
CLS-CLASS 613 832 -26.3% 1,240 1,733 -28.4%
R-CLASS 875 2,469 -64.6% 1,713 3,155 -45.7%
M-CLASS 2,431 2,155 12.8% 4,782 4,117 16.2%
GL-CLASS 1,936 n/a n/a 3,751 n/a n/a
G-CLASS 172 55 212.7% 179 148 20.9%
GRAND TOTAL 17,304 17,356 -0.3% 34,373 29,825 15.2%
PHP Code:
LEXUS RETAIL SALES
(INCLUDES FLEET & HAWAII)
February, 2007
-- CURRENT MONTH -- -- CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE --
DSR % DSR %
2007 2006 CHG 2007 2006 CHG
ES 350 5,286 3,223 64.0 10,606 6,556 58.5
LS 460 2,423 1,015 138.7 5,429 2,205 141.2
SC 430 282 446 -36.8 584 851 -32.8
GS 300 1,388 1,771 -21.6 2,756 3,470 -22.2
GS 430/450h 175 278 -37.1 358 557 -37.0
IS 250/350 3,937 3,882 1.4 7,332 7,955 -9.7
TOTAL LEXUS PASS. CAR 13,491 10,615 27.1 27,065 21,594 22.8
LX 470 269 452 -40.5 556 996 -45.3
GX 470 1,672 1,813 -7.8 3,385 3,759 -11.8
RX 350/400h 7,086 8,247 -14.1 13,630 14,436 -7.5
TOTAL LEXUS LIGHT TRUCK 9,027 10,512 -14.1 17,571 19,191 -10.3
TOTAL LEXUS 22,518 21,127 6.6 44,636 40,785 7.2
(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20030501/TOYLOGO)
Last edited by vedro; Apr 30, 2007 at 10:42 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
The latest available, year-to-date February 2007 sales figures.
February 2007
"Flagship":
"LS" - 2423
S-Class - 2128
7-series - 1015
XJ - 351
A8/S8 - 262
Q45 - 5
Phaeton - 4
February 2007
"Flagship":
"LS" - 2423
S-Class - 2128
7-series - 1015
XJ - 351
A8/S8 - 262
Q45 - 5
Phaeton - 4
PHP Code:
MERCEDES-BENZ
Sales -- February 2007
Model February '07 February '06 Monthly % YTD 2007 YTD 2006 Yearly %
C-CLASS 3,868 2,976 30.0% 7,796 6,074 28.4%
E-CLASS 3,053 2,310 32.2% 6,428 4,775 34.6%
S-CLASS 2,128 3,360 -36.7% 4,206 4,283 -1.8%
CL-CLASS 231 45 413.3% 489 113 332.7%
SL-CLASS 356 542 -34.3% 725 1,070 -32.2%
CLK-CLASS 1,255 1,911 -34.3% 2,282 3,037 -24.9%
SLK-CLASS 386 701 -44.9% 782 1,320 -40.8%
CLS-CLASS 613 832 -26.3% 1,240 1,733 -28.4%
R-CLASS 875 2,469 -64.6% 1,713 3,155 -45.7%
M-CLASS 2,431 2,155 12.8% 4,782 4,117 16.2%
GL-CLASS 1,936 n/a n/a 3,751 n/a n/a
G-CLASS 172 55 212.7% 179 148 20.9%
GRAND TOTAL 17,304 17,356 -0.3% 34,373 29,825 15.2%
PHP Code:
LEXUS RETAIL SALES
(INCLUDES FLEET & HAWAII)
February, 2007
-- CURRENT MONTH -- -- CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE --
DSR % DSR %
2007 2006 CHG 2007 2006 CHG
ES 350 5,286 3,223 64.0 10,606 6,556 58.5
LS 460 2,423 1,015 138.7 5,429 2,205 141.2
SC 430 282 446 -36.8 584 851 -32.8
GS 300 1,388 1,771 -21.6 2,756 3,470 -22.2
GS 430/450h 175 278 -37.1 358 557 -37.0
IS 250/350 3,937 3,882 1.4 7,332 7,955 -9.7
TOTAL LEXUS PASS. CAR 13,491 10,615 27.1 27,065 21,594 22.8
LX 470 269 452 -40.5 556 996 -45.3
GX 470 1,672 1,813 -7.8 3,385 3,759 -11.8
RX 350/400h 7,086 8,247 -14.1 13,630 14,436 -7.5
TOTAL LEXUS LIGHT TRUCK 9,027 10,512 -14.1 17,571 19,191 -10.3
TOTAL LEXUS 22,518 21,127 6.6 44,636 40,785 7.2
(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20030501/TOYLOGO)
These are just US sales you tool. Look worldwide and you will see that DCX still sell's more S class's than Lexus could with the LS.
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
This is not news to me...I was aware Lexus has very good sales numbers. They are priced much lower than competeting German makes and win a lot of sales that way. Look at those numbers for the Infiniti Q45, lol what a POS.
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
Excellent point, Lexus has had trouble breaking into European markets since Europeans are not as dumb as Americans and still recognize the S-Class as king.
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Wow S-Class sales numbers actually fell. Is this an availability problem or is it because of the reliability problems catching up with MB and making many customers upset hence some have moved over to Lexus therefore boosting Lexus LS sales. I assume these are U.S only sales numbers because most Americans don't like to take crap hence the quick rise of Lexus in the US. While in other countries Lexus sales figures are rising slowly but surely. No ,matter even if we are having this discussion is a 
too Lexus since about 10years ago this discussion would really be utterly impossible but not today since this same discussion is going in on many other forums.
too Lexus since about 10years ago this discussion would really be utterly impossible but not today since this same discussion is going in on many other forums.
MBWorld Fanatic!
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Posts: 5,143
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From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
Wow S-Class sales numbers actually fell. Is this an availability problem or is it because of the reliability problems catching up with MB and making many customers upset hence some have moved over to Lexus therefore boosting Lexus LS sales. I assume these are U.S only sales numbers because most Americans don't like to take crap hence the quick rise of Lexus in the US. While in other countries Lexus sales figures are rising slowly but surely. No ,matter even if we are having this discussion is a too Lexus since about 10years ago this discussion would really be utterly impossible but not today since this same discussion is going in on many other forums.
too Lexus since about 10years ago this discussion would really be utterly impossible but not today since this same discussion is going in on many other forums.1. LS has a lower starting base price, so obviously they are going to sell more you dork. This is simple economics, did you not take an economics course in college?
2. Mercedes still can't keep up with the demand for the new S or CL, as many options still arent available.
3. The S class has been on the market for 2 years now - and proven to be reliable - as no safety or lingernig recalls have been issued.
My god man you are a lost cause. I don't have anything against Lexus at all. They just make cars that are too vanilla for me. Styling on the LS looks like the Camry, its interior is no different than the LS430 it replaces. Better yet go read my review that I posted here a while back.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,240
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From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
I think he is right about one thing. Mercedes has definately lost customers due to reliability issues in the past and I'm sure that some of them have been lost to Lexus. This is something that they have to deal with. The new S, CL and soon C will hopefully win some people back, but it will take time. We have to remember that most people are not as into their cars as we are so for them style and driving dynamics, etc. are not as important which would make them move to Lexus if they have had a bad experience with Mercedes.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
I think he is right about one thing. Mercedes has definately lost customers due to reliability issues in the past and I'm sure that some of them have been lost to Lexus. This is something that they have to deal with. The new S, CL and soon C will hopefully win some people back, but it will take time. We have to remember that most people are not as into their cars as we are so for them style and driving dynamics, etc. are not as important which would make them move to Lexus if they have had a bad experience with Mercedes.
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: NY
2014 E350
MB Fanatic,
I don't care what people in other parts of the world drive or consider exclusive. 34 million tourists visited NYC last year and i keep seeing year after year foreigners drooling over cars on our roads. I've been to Europe, Latin America and Asia and I've seen the typical crap boxes they drive. What the f*** do these people know about cars? I only care what goes on in this country and more specifically NY.
I don't care what people in other parts of the world drive or consider exclusive. 34 million tourists visited NYC last year and i keep seeing year after year foreigners drooling over cars on our roads. I've been to Europe, Latin America and Asia and I've seen the typical crap boxes they drive. What the f*** do these people know about cars? I only care what goes on in this country and more specifically NY.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,240
Likes: 5
From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
MB Fanatic,
I don't care what people in other parts of the world drive or consider exclusive. 34 million tourists visited NYC last year and i keep seeing year after year foreigners drooling over cars on our roads. I've been to Europe, Latin America and Asia and I've seen the typical crap boxes they drive. What the f*** do these people know about cars? I only care what goes on in this country and more specifically NY.
I don't care what people in other parts of the world drive or consider exclusive. 34 million tourists visited NYC last year and i keep seeing year after year foreigners drooling over cars on our roads. I've been to Europe, Latin America and Asia and I've seen the typical crap boxes they drive. What the f*** do these people know about cars? I only care what goes on in this country and more specifically NY.
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: NSW, Australia
McLaren 570S, G12 BMW 750Li, GLE63s AMG Coupe
Don't pay any attention to this rude snobby aussie who can only post personal attacks. He learned all of his insults from his mother who left him in a room all by himself so she can ***** herself out so that she could afford his education. He didn't really graduate as you can tell from his attitude towards others and life. He is able to afford the W221 because now he ****** his mother out.
You want to do insults all day so can others Dr. ortho
You want to do insults all day so can others Dr. ortho
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: NSW, Australia
McLaren 570S, G12 BMW 750Li, GLE63s AMG Coupe
Don't pay any attention to this rude snobby aussie who can only post personal attacks. He learned all of his insults from his mother who left him in a room all by himself so she can ***** herself out so that she could afford his education. He didn't really graduate as you can tell from his attitude towards others and life. He is able to afford the W221 because now he ****** his mother out.
You want to do insults all day so can others Dr. ortho
You want to do insults all day so can others Dr. ortho
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
From: NSW, Australia
McLaren 570S, G12 BMW 750Li, GLE63s AMG Coupe
AsianML can you read. I always said if people want to start with insults than I will retaliate and I don't care who it's directed at as long as there is a post someone insulting someone such as Dr.ortho has repeatedly done than I will retaliate. So don't give me your crap. I don't think a forum is for insults such as the ones ortho posts so if he can give it than he can take it until he stops the insults. Insult lexus or mb not a problem but another human = problem.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
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Hmm lets see if your Canadian brain can function.
1. LS has a lower starting base price, so obviously they are going to sell more you dork. This is simple economics, did you not take an economics course in college?
2. Mercedes still can't keep up with the demand for the new S or CL, as many options still arent available.
3. The S class has been on the market for 2 years now - and proven to be reliable - as no safety or lingernig recalls have been issued.
My god man you are a lost cause. I don't have anything against Lexus at all. They just make cars that are too vanilla for me. Styling on the LS looks like the Camry, its interior is no different than the LS430 it replaces. Better yet go read my review that I posted here a while back.
1. LS has a lower starting base price, so obviously they are going to sell more you dork. This is simple economics, did you not take an economics course in college?
2. Mercedes still can't keep up with the demand for the new S or CL, as many options still arent available.
3. The S class has been on the market for 2 years now - and proven to be reliable - as no safety or lingernig recalls have been issued.
My god man you are a lost cause. I don't have anything against Lexus at all. They just make cars that are too vanilla for me. Styling on the LS looks like the Camry, its interior is no different than the LS430 it replaces. Better yet go read my review that I posted here a while back.
What is wrong with some of you can't make any statements without insulting people first.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
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just telling the truth. No your mother has already. What can't take it? Is it getting to you? 
Careful don't get too upset and get a heartache we will miss you too much because you have added so much to this debate.
Careful don't get too upset and get a heartache we will miss you too much because you have added so much to this debate.
Last edited by rieger; Apr 30, 2007 at 03:02 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
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