The fate of the V12 and future S-Class engines..
09-20-2008, 01:22 PM
#26
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I do not think at all that the V12 engine is an endangered species. The economy of fuel does not necessarily rest only upon the cylinder count, but engine volume and technology. I believe engines, V12 et al will be if not significantly smaller, at least capped to their existing capacity, i.e no 7.3L AMG V12. What we may see are compact <5.5L V12s with superior 4-valve and DI tech, and of course, twin turbocharging.
Something I predict in Mercedes' case, however, is that their AMG range may not necessarily feature a V12 anymore. Instead, we may have the case of the Hammer I and II. Thus, the V12 will remain the top of the line for the regular Mercedes cars, i.e. the 600 line-up, with power and torque levels in between Hammer I and II variants, but superior smoothness and refinement.
Let us not forget that Maybach is in the middle of a major reshouffling of its image and the way in which it interacts with the Mercedes brand. They have several models in the pipeline. 57 and 62 successors are going to be joined by a whole line (sedan, coupe, convertible) of smaller Maybachs that will fill in the gap between the 57 and the S 600.
Where a carmaker like Mercedes compensates for their conspicuous engines (their TT V8s and V12s) is by counteracting this small volume with the rest of their engines, from I-4s to V8s, whose upcoming improved efficiency will lower the weighed portfolio average to levels acceptable in the current climate of environmentallism. The less than 50,000 monster-engined luxury and sport autos MB sells will be more then offset by the million-plus autos they sell to the rest of the market.
There will always be a market for V12 vehicles and other expensive automotive toys. As long as this market exists, manufacturers will cater it.
Something I predict in Mercedes' case, however, is that their AMG range may not necessarily feature a V12 anymore. Instead, we may have the case of the Hammer I and II. Thus, the V12 will remain the top of the line for the regular Mercedes cars, i.e. the 600 line-up, with power and torque levels in between Hammer I and II variants, but superior smoothness and refinement.
Let us not forget that Maybach is in the middle of a major reshouffling of its image and the way in which it interacts with the Mercedes brand. They have several models in the pipeline. 57 and 62 successors are going to be joined by a whole line (sedan, coupe, convertible) of smaller Maybachs that will fill in the gap between the 57 and the S 600.
Where a carmaker like Mercedes compensates for their conspicuous engines (their TT V8s and V12s) is by counteracting this small volume with the rest of their engines, from I-4s to V8s, whose upcoming improved efficiency will lower the weighed portfolio average to levels acceptable in the current climate of environmentallism. The less than 50,000 monster-engined luxury and sport autos MB sells will be more then offset by the million-plus autos they sell to the rest of the market.
There will always be a market for V12 vehicles and other expensive automotive toys. As long as this market exists, manufacturers will cater it.
09-20-2008, 06:05 PM
#27
I just feel no need at all for any change in the current setup of V12s within the MB family. They work, they seem dependable to me, and the smoothness is incomparable. The R&D has been done so let the engine serve its purpose for as long as possible. We have plenty o' power with these beasts so I'd be happy if they used the current V12s for 15 years. If there is a problem, fix that particular problem (like the idler pulley issue I had to deal with) and compound on the improvements. In other words, if there is a change, let it happen "on the fly" using the current platform of engine. No need for a complete overhaul change.
09-22-2008, 12:42 AM
#28
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2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
Motorauthority recently had an article touching on the fate of the V12 at Mercedes. Mercedes may partner with BMW and maybe also Aston Martin on V12 development. Presumably this would also include Maybach and Rolls Royce, although they are not mentioned in the article.
Update: BMW and Mercedes to form purchasing agreement
Posted Mon Aug 11 2008 10:26 AM by Viknesh Vijayenthiran
http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-an...n-engines.html
Update: BMW and Mercedes to form purchasing agreement
Posted Mon Aug 11 2008 10:26 AM by Viknesh Vijayenthiran
http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-an...n-engines.html
Though like Trumpet I still think the current unit can run and run... DOHC might make people here feel better, but unless a brand new V12 delivers radically greater fuel efficiencies or performance (Which would have to be 700+ hp!) it still to me makes more economic sense as a medium or long term proposition. (Post w221) Makes more sense now to invest in the power transmission as has been pointed out given the unused potential of the existing M275. It does seem from all anecdotal evidence that the current design will last for the whole w221 life-cycle at least...
Chris
09-23-2008, 08:45 PM
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One of the more interesting threads I've read on here in a while.
I for one hope they don't kill the V12 before I work my way up there! I can see the pressure they are under to produce more efficient engines, but in terms of EPA regulation, the V12s are such low volumes that it wouldn't really affect MB's CAFE.
I for one hope they don't kill the V12 before I work my way up there! I can see the pressure they are under to produce more efficient engines, but in terms of EPA regulation, the V12s are such low volumes that it wouldn't really affect MB's CAFE.
09-24-2008, 04:02 AM
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
BMW/AM tech sucks....POS cars from any engineering standpoint.....hope MB doesn't waste scarce R&D resources on tech-sharing w/these inept engineering teams that develop man-purses for girlie-dudes short of cash...
For US mkt, MB/AMG needs to invest R&D to develop a new-tech, lighter V12 motor and fast/smart gearbox/chassis....all these silly low-tq and/or nonlinear V8s and other girlie motors might be cute in low std of living places like EU/Asia, but in Woodside/BevHills/Greenwich there's ample demand for 600+hp/lb-ft motors/drivetrains for routine commuter cars...MPG is irrelevant in most of US; we need tq and fuel tanks offering ample range for commuting in sprawling major urban regions
For US mkt, MB/AMG needs to invest R&D to develop a new-tech, lighter V12 motor and fast/smart gearbox/chassis....all these silly low-tq and/or nonlinear V8s and other girlie motors might be cute in low std of living places like EU/Asia, but in Woodside/BevHills/Greenwich there's ample demand for 600+hp/lb-ft motors/drivetrains for routine commuter cars...MPG is irrelevant in most of US; we need tq and fuel tanks offering ample range for commuting in sprawling major urban regions
Guy don't ever change, still like reading your unique take on things. I can't agree with your opinion on BMW's or even Aston-Martin's "tech", but I find your opinion interesting to say the least. I think you're going to have get ready for some shared BMW/MB items in the future. Starting next year if you buy a hybrid Mercedes or BMW. BMW and Mercedes worked with GM and Chrysler for goodness sake on hybrid technology. Can't wait to see what you think about that.
M
