cjf_moraga

The fate of the current V12 engine...

The slow drip drip of information about the upcoming new SL and E-Class (w212) engines prompts me to speculate on what the longer term might be for the S-Class.... Note this about the upcoming w212 E-Class...

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/s...cedes-e-class/

If this is accurate, it seems that the new E-Class AMG will "only" have a 544 HP V8 which for that small increase must be the current NA 6.3 unit slightly updated. (Until the mid model-cycle update at least) No sign yet of the much rumored Twin Turbo V8 which has prompted a lot of speculation that it would be the next E-Class AMG. Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding about what this engine is designed to replace? AMG themselves have stated they are working on two engine variants code named Hammer 1 and Hammer 2, and it is pretty certain these engines will figure in the future of the S-Class.

- A 63 engine TT at 570 to 580 hp (Perhaps the E63/S63/CL63 successor)
- A 63 engine TT at 670 to 680 hp (Perhaps the V12 "600/65" successor)

For a general statement of corporate direction note the recent comments from Thomas Weber that MB engines will be downsized in future.

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...nsize-engines/

So what to make of all this? Here is some speculation based on various sources. (I reserve the right to scrape any egg off my face as newer information emerges!)

V12: The current M275 unit is the last V12 from MB for the moment. Enjoy it while it lasts. Any future V12 is counter to the whole direction the industry is going - too thirsty, CO2 too high, government regulations in the EU and USA are making these engines an uneconomic proposition. The only way to improve it is to either make it significantly more powerful or make it radically more economical. (But how?) I suspect the current M275 V12 will continue right through to the end of the w221 model-cycle around 2011/12 and will then be dropped. However during the mid-cycle face-lift it may be mated to a new 7-speed transmission which will be introduced first in the new SL.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/c...-amg-facelift/

V8 TT: A high HP variant of this engine will replace the current V12 unit in the next generation S-Class and will possibly be introduced first in the new SL. Perhaps we will see an AMG version as per the Hammer 1 to replace the S65/63 as above (And it would be more sensible to make them one car unlike the confusion of todays lineup) and a standard TT V8 to replace the S600. After all, V8's were S600 power before the w140 so there is some tradition that MB marketing can play on. Not that a V8TT is that more economical than a V12, but it would "let down" the V12 market more gently and reset future expectations. Is it also a coincidence that BMW are introducing a new TT V8 with no solid evidence of any "new generation" V12 replacement for the new 7 series either? (There may be a mild refresh of the existing unit) I would imagine that their respective engineers know very well what each side is doing on the industry grapevine.

V8: This will continue as the standard bread and butter S-Class engine for the moment (In the US market at least) but with economy being the main development driver.

Hybrid: We know there is one of these in the near future of the current w221 and it will likely increase in prominence.

So is the current V12 the final generation? One other variable is the future of Maybach. Does this marque alone justify a whole new V12 development effort that could be downsized for the S-Class - seems hard to justify given current poor sales. There are Bentleys with big V8's so going to TT V8 power would not necessarily be a step down the way trends are developing. I would not be surprised to ultimately see MB kill Maybach as a separate engineering effort however they eventually disguise it.

Perhaps 12 cylinder power will become more viable if/when liquid hydrogen becomes viable. I have actually driven the V12 Hydrogen BMW 7 series and though with a 0-60 of 9 seconds or more can hardly be called a performance engine it was certainly V12 smooth and very impressive. (Especially the way you can switch from gas to LH with the switch of a steering wheel button) Of course the hydrogen infrastructure needs to be solved if even possible. (A whole separate topic!)

But for now I am going to speculate that the V12 era at MB is ending. (Now throw those eggs!)

Chris

carsnob

Good predictions Chris. .. All the more reason to enjoy our existing V12's. Maybe they'll hold their value as a rare species. Better for resale in 10 yrs...
Perhaps as the years go by, the trend will be to lower the HP's and maybe the V8's will be history. Remember the 450+ hp. Olds Cutlass, and all those others in the late 60's? Then there was the trend to slower engines and gas economy. Now with the green concerns, the hybrids will become more popular and fast cars will be less prevalent.
As for Maybachs, you're probably right that they will be toast...
How's your stock predictions?

trumpet1

Again Chris, thanks for the great write-up and info. Looks like I had a little justification in my post earlier about the V12 future. IF I trade cars again, it will probably be into possibly one of the final years of the current V12 W221s to ensure my place in holding one of the best machines to roll the highways of America. BTW, how did windnoise turn into this discussion??? Oh yeah, it's my fault.
Joke of the day:
Why do we never see in the headlines: "Psychic wins $100M Lottery"?

Z356

Chris: Thank you for the write-up and your very thoughtful analysis. As you know, I am also very much convinced we are at the end of the modern V12 era - for Mercedes and perhaps most other marques. Those that have made the decision to purchase one of these 'last generation' V12s so as to enjoy the incredible torque & smoothness of this power plant will take comfort knowing that perhaps theirs will be an experience that will not be matched by the 'greener' technology coming down the pike in the remaining period of our lifetime. As a result, the current V12 experience may be 'historic' and 'legendary' in the not too distant future...and many will regret never having the opportunity to own a modern MB V12 and use all of that glorious torque on a daily basis. So...Carpe Diem. Z356

WSH

This talk of imminent demise of V12 always makes me shudder....and almost call my dealer to order a CL65....but I don't....

Doubt even MB knows what they want to do w/engine development....tricky time in world....lots of eco-nonsense politics/regs to manage...poor sales of S/CL63/65 rather early in launch process......and my sense is MB (and every major mfr) simply lacks a real understanding of/dialog w/their repeat customers to know what parameters actual repeat customers prefer in their cars.....IMO, MB's marketers have simply failed Marketing 101 (know one's best/most profitable customers extremely well), forcing senior management to cluelessly "shoot in the dark".....

After all, 1000s of guys in major mkts like NYC/SF/LA casually fly off in G550s/NetJets nearly every wkend (quickly burning 1000s of galls of fuel...and making any V12 seem incredibly eco-friendly) to one of their undoubtedly eco-efficient wkend houses.....and, thankfully, would observe that more than a few of these guys are car guys....in fact, the pkg lots at the private air terminals at SFO/SanJose often have a disproportionate no. of CL63s/SL55s/S65s, etc.....

Demise of high-powered cars was erroneously predicted some 25yrs ago in era of then-energy crisis, stagflation, 55MPH speed lims, etc (and underpowered 380SELs)......wealth generation in US during past 10 yrs is simply unprecedented in history of world, w/more younger and/or smarter guys w/self-made money than ever before.....and though many wealthy guys aren't interested in cars, seems that quite a few major tech and financial guys are perf car guys and plane guys.....so I don't worry too much re: future of perf cars (or gas-guzzling big private planes) in our lifetimes (though I suspect confused, eco-focused, overeducated PaloAlto will remain perhaps only town in world where some families choose to drive Prius as their family car, yet have a G550 (or bigger bird) as the family plane) ....

usctrojans1

Chris, great insight as always. I am glad that finally someone actually references a source when talking intelligently about their opinions.

Kudos, well done.

///MB

Was there a 600 before the W140? I thought it was the 560 SEL, which was a V8. So, hasn't the 600 has always been a V12?

Germancar1

Yes the 600 (W140, W220) has always been a V12. Not sure what he meant here, but the 560SEL was indeed a V8.

I think the twin turbo might replace the AMG V12s at some point, but I can't see Mercedes not having a V12 in their top of the line S/CL/SL non-AMG models.

My guess would be a true 6L V12 with direct injection and a bag of other tricks to keep the hp around 500h, but with less torque while at the same time making the next generation 600s lighter may yield similar performance numbers as todays 600s. Just my guess. BMW is going with a twin turbo V12 for the new 7-Series and a twin turbo V10 for the smaller Rolls based on the same chassis. Mercedes isn't going to be without some type of V12. Though the 6L V12 in the current 65 cars though might be phased out if a twin turbo V8 can make 650hp in a more efficient package, makes sense.

M

absent

This is the original 600 (made from late 60' through late 70')
It's famous designation "6.3" liter engine was the inspiration for the new AMG 6.3 made currently (even though it is only 6.2)

F_Porsche

the w100 was never designated the "6.3"!

It was the the 300SE 6.3 actually made by MB and
later tuned and raced by AMG in Spa that led AMG
to the history lesson on the new 63s.

trumpet1

That original 600 (from the 1960s) was a good looking thing in its day. I still think it is a hot looking car.



Don't you wish MB would break out the mold of one of these cars and remake them just like that one more time. I bet if they built 1000 of them, they'd sell in a week. Put a price of about $100K on them. They'd make a great profit since R&D wouldn't cost anything. I guess mandatory safety elements would be the only R&D involved.

absent

You are right ,600 Grosse was never designated "6.3" but was the first to receive that engine.
Only later it was stuffed in the smaller 300 chassis and thus 300 SEL 6.3 became the basis for the first ever AMG.

cjf_moraga

Ah my imprecision... I should have said "V8's were the top line power in the lineage of cars now referred to as the S-Class before the introduction of the V12 w140 so there is some tradition that MB marketing can play on."

All good history though - MB nomenclature can get confusing!

Chris

cjf_moraga

Interesting idea... though surely the w140 assembly line tooling was discarded/scraped a long while back? To recreate the moulds and tooling for every w140 component part (and from various suppliers also) would be very expensive and likely unobtainable. The cars would in effect need to be hand built at that quantity and consequently a lot more expensive than $100K...

Chris

trumpet1

k

Sorry Chris, I was referring to that 196x model in the picture provided above by absent, not a W140. I don't know why the picture didn't carry along in the quote?

BTW, thank you absent, for putting that picture up for us.

cjf_moraga

Do you have a substantive source for a TT V12 in the next BMW 7 series? There has been a lot of PR about the TT V8 and also a lot of talk/speculation about a TT V10 for the M5... I have not seen anything beyond speculation about a new TT V12 though... I am sure your sources are as good and bad as mine!

Of course BMW could take their existing V12 and TT it just like MB essentially turned the NA M137 design into the TT M285/M275 - partly to provide greater power/torque for the Maybach. The fact that a slightly de-tuned M275 version is used for the S600 would have allowed MB to amortize development costs over two model lines.

I imagine the BMW V12 could be improved with TT's but it would in effect be a final upgrade to the aging existing design. A totally new engine design would be very expensive. One point about the future of the MB V12 design is that it has already exhausted the TT option. There does not seem much room for radical improvement in line with ever tightening emissions and fuel standards. There are smaller incremental improvements such as direct injection, 4 valves that may be possible in one more iteration, but they are not going to deliver major gains - and the cost of developing a completely new unit (with significantly greater power/fuel efficiency) is surely going to be very high.

MB could swallow that cost for a small volume of halo cars/engines. They can afford it, but in the changing climate (literally) continuing with blatantly low MPG engines seems increasingly counter to the market profile that volume car companies like MB will want to present in future. I would agree with WSH that there is likely a lot of uncertainty in MB management at the moment. The whole political climate surrounding car economy/climate change etc is changing notably as we can all see.

Chris

WSH

Wouldn't consider V12 engines in isolation.....I suspect, w/tech advances, many of the gains in perf/safety will occur w/lighter-weight, high-strength materials and increasingly faster/smarter driveline/chassis computer networks which create a more optimized, real-world tq/traction balance and more precise/safer handling&braking....

And consider that tq curve of the humble NA V8 63 motor is superior/more real-world relevant vs that of the Ferrari 599's NA V12 motor....and simply embarrasses the weak tq curve of the 612's NA V12 motor....

Outstanding safety engineering doesn't necessarily require excess wt....consider that the 4300lb, $300K Ferrari 612 has no side/head airbags; primitive seat structures and other active/passive safety features; and dubious fuel tank crashworthiness....suspect a 3100lb 997S is far safer than any 4000lb Ferrari.....

And marketing is a key consideration for discretionary, $150K+ cars...even many non-car people ask if S/CL has a V12....many of the growth mkts for cars are very "aspirational".....they tend to be focused upon brands/top-line designations, etc.....

Would observe that BMW, Audi and Lexus struggle to sell any $100K+ cars, let alone $150K+ cars.....the mfr that basically ate MB's lunch the past few yrs in the $150K+ league is VW.....Bentley sells some ?3K/yr $175Kish/copy cars in US.....simply dwarfing MB's 65 sales.....

IMO, Bents are POS from engineering/dynamics/safety/aesthetics/tech standpoints, but they hit a marketing sweet spot among many aspirational buyers.....

MB marketing needs to realize most repeat S/CL buyers don't complete surveys, attend focus groups, attend car shows, etc.....should just contact 2-3 biggest dealers (for $150K+ MBs, not C-Classes) in each major mkt, like NYC/Greenwich, SF and BevHills; ask who are 5-10 biggest repeat customers at each dealer; and find a creative, time-efficient method to casually establish an on-going one-on-one dialog w/these customers, to learn preferences of jaded customers (e.g., know at least 6 guys who opted to keep their CL63 030, rather than get CL65 simply b/c offended by 65 wheels, quilting....and ambivalent re: 65's real-world tq/trac balance...$200K price was a non-issue if car had been spec'd properly by MBUSA).....suspect a far cheaper, more efficient/effective approach than wasting $MM creating products that lack many interested, affluent buyers.....

MidniteBluBenz

I have a feeling that the V12 will survive. There's something about a V12 that will appeal to enough people w/ the money to be buying a fully loaded S-Class. It's what continues to drives sales today.

They may lose the turbo's and switch back to shutting down half the cylinders during light load operation in order to increase fuel economy and decrease emissions, but I think the V12 will survive in the 600 series Mercedes.

The days of ridiculous torque and horsepower from twin turbo's maybe coming to an end, but that doesn't mean the V12 won't live on.

Germancar1

This is true about Bentley, but Mercedes-Benz kills them all in the 70-120K catergory easily with S, CL and SL. Bentley of course doesn't compete in this sector, but Lexus, BMW, Audi, Jaguar and Cadillac do and they aren't even close to MB in sales in this range.

M

Wolfgang

Motorauthority recently had an article touching on the fate of the V12 at Mercedes. Mercedes may partner with BMW and maybe also Aston Martin on V12 development. Presumably this would also include Maybach and Rolls Royce, although they are not mentioned in the article.


Update: BMW and Mercedes to form purchasing agreement
Posted Mon Aug 11 2008 10:26 AM by Viknesh Vijayenthiran

Furthermore, Auto Motor und Sport is reporting that BMW and Mercedes will share development for their future V12 engines and could possibly even include Aston Martin. According to reports leaked late last week, Aston Martin and Mercedes are already tied in negotiations and are planning to share everything from platforms to engines and transmissions.

Original: More details surrounding the ensuing talks between BMW and Daimler are starting to emerge, with the latest information coming directly from Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche. Those who have followed the saga of the BMW and Mercedes cooperation talks know that the two makers have been cautious - to say the least - in working together, but at the same time the continuous nature of the talks show that both are interested in the idea.

From:

http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-an...n-engines.html

trumpet1

I don't like it.

I don't want to be driving a Bavarecedes-Benzwagen in the future!

Untertürkheim

+1, the M120 was such a great engine, I have been looking forward to a 4V DOHC V12 since these "new" SOHC 3V things came out.

whoover

Without a new transmission, what's the point? The SOHC 3V is already up against the torque limit imposed by the strongest transmission they have. Even the SL65 BS has the same torque limit -- all they could do to tune it was move the power band up a few hundred RPMs to get some more horsepower from the same artificially limited 738 ft-lbs. Without the downstream limitations it would be trivial to get 750 or 800 HP from the same engine. At that point they can worry about a better valve train.

Untertürkheim

I know, although my statements were made with the expectation that the 7G-Tronic will see a new iteration able to handle much more power than the current 5 speed.

Also, even without raising output, a DOCH design would allow for variable intake and exhaust valve timing to give a better power band and fuel economy.

WSH

BMW/AM tech sucks....POS cars from any engineering standpoint.....hope MB doesn't waste scarce R&D resources on tech-sharing w/these inept engineering teams that develop man-purses for girlie-dudes short of cash...

For US mkt, MB/AMG needs to invest R&D to develop a new-tech, lighter V12 motor and fast/smart gearbox/chassis....all these silly low-tq and/or nonlinear V8s and other girlie motors might be cute in low std of living places like EU/Asia, but in Woodside/BevHills/Greenwich there's ample demand for 600+hp/lb-ft motors/drivetrains for routine commuter cars...MPG is irrelevant in most of US; we need tq and fuel tanks offering ample range for commuting in sprawling major urban regions