wblynch

I saw an S-400 BlueHYBRID on the road today in Los Angeles.

That is I believe it's the Hybrid since the motor shut off at a stop and restarted once underway.

It was debadged and had Michigan MFG plates on it. Car was not camouflaged as we often see with test mules out here. Clearly the body was production ready.

Also I noticed a clear plastic shield or guard over the center of the radiator grille. I wonder what purpose that serves?

Untertürkheim

The clear plastic shield was probably since the car has distronic.

Untertürkheim

Now to find out what features MBUSA will allow us to get on it. Hopefully everything the other S classes get, especially ABC.

Red Marko

Originally Posted by WSH
IMO, huge waste of R&D resources for US mkt to develop some transgender eco-motor for S-Class, as opposed to advancing a new-tech V12, to sell more high-margin $200K 65s in US....

Houses in Greenwich/Woodside are 50% cheaper than houses in London....cars and fuel are 50% cheaper in US than in EU....US consumers have far different preferences/higher std of living/greater disposable income than our pals in London/Munich/Frankfurt....

In key office pkg lots in SiliconValley, one routinely sees more new S65s than underpowered, underbraked, plasticky S550s....

Marketers need to better understand socio-economics (and commute patterns) of likely buyers of highly profitable $200K commuter cars, esp in major mkts like SF/LA/NYC....


Actually I agree with all statements WSH posted.
Don't get upset that he called 550 plasticky, undrpowered and underbraked. He is comparing it (first hand) to 600 or 65. He is not comparing it to Prius or whatever, mind you .
It would be far better for us (US also) to get new V12 than a hibrid. These cars are high end afterall. I'm comparing V12 cars only. Could you imagine Bentley, Lambo, Ferrari or RR having "Hibrid" on the trunk?
That market niche has no hibrid engine in sight.
If I choose to be more green, I'd buy fluorescent light bulbs or recycle more, like carsnob does.
My view of Hibrid and S/CL participation is - I drive my car on some curvy roads and my wife behind my on a bicycle. Or vice versa

Untertürkheim

I can assure you that my statements are also supported by firsthand experience. The problem is that "plasticky" is not true, because like we have discussed, a full leather interior can be ordered on any S class, it is just "standard" on a V12.

Underpowered and under braked are also meaningless statements, they may be less powerful or have less braking capability, but to say they are deficient is asinine.

The problem with your and WSH’s statements are that they completely subjective and assuming your reference points are universal, which never works for making a valid point.

Lastly, MB does not compete with any of the companies you mentioned, Ferrari and Lamborghini do not make sedans, the closest thing either of them make to an MB is the Ferrari 612, a GT coupe that competes with the CL.

RR and Bentley have never been at the forefront of anything automotive, the last engine they developed was in the 50s, and they have yet to make an automatic transmission.

Also, keep in mind that EVERY one of the companies you mentioned was sold or bought out.

MB has always been at the forefront of automotive quality, design, technology, and everything else. They are experimenting with hybrids, and if they can make it work it would be a nice step forward. I personally find diesel to be the most attractive option for the US, others may like hybrids. Send me a screenshot 190mph, and then I’ll believe that you can actually use your car.

Red Marko

I stand corrected, you have firsthand experience
but...
we are talking about standard equipped 550 -> 600 -> 650.
You know immediately where additoinal money went.
Exactly what I ment:
Underpowered = less powerful
under braked = less braking capability
Deficient... that's your words Are they?
I'm hoping that you are not thinking as your reference points are objective? Of course not.
All of our points are subjective (but that's a different discussion).
Still friends?
Agreed,
Just trying to picture in my mind plaque "HIBRID" on the trunk of above mentioned cars
So what? Meaningless.
Again, picture in your mind a sticker on above mentioned cars:
"My Bentley was sold and bought by .... "you get the jist.
Absolutely. In A, B, C, E, ML and R class.
Maybe S in green/tree hugging end. But leave CL and SL alone
I would love to, I have factory limiter. 130mph only, my apologies.
But... I can send you a video of me engaging my torque ?.
Just put it in slow motion, I don't want you to miss any details
Friends?

Diesel Benz

I'm afraid I'm with Untertürkheim here. Perhaps because my cars are "underpowered". But so are all the cars here, if the definition is that the car has less power than one other (perhaps there is one car that isn't underpowered, that one isn't even an MB).

My underpowered car is limited to top speed 250 km/h (155 mph or so), who should be jealous.

My car has smaller brakes but I doubt there is any significant difference in braking distance. The S600 brakes are built to handle more braking within a given time because it can gain more speed at the same given time, and it also weighs more.

I've managed with a 65 HP or so 200D car pretty well, everything is relative. More power would be welcome but I would not want more power if unless the engine efficiency remains at the level my car has. My preferences are more on the options and fuel consumption while I'm not afraid admitting that I could not afford any S600, at least I would not feel convenient with the purchase.

Let's just enjoy the MBs we all have and avoid unhealthy jealousy towards other car owners, and let's not state what others should drive or prefer.

whoover

I wouldn't say it's plasticky, but an upgraded V8 with an 8xx leather package does not have the same interior as the standard V12 5xx interior. An 801 black upgrade, for instance, gives you nappa leather seats but not the leather dash and other trim. It's the full 5xx interior that banishes the plastic and vinyl, and is not available on anything but a V12 in the US.

dimapb

I think MB is building a Hybrid to compete with Lexus. They have lost some customers when new LS came out and would like to win some back. I'm sure you've heard a story about Paul McCartney getting a new LS600h. Do you think he would have ordered Lexus if MB was available? I don't think so.

FlavioB

You said it:

...in the US...

I've seen 500 (your 550) with designo full leather, dash and everything. No difference whatsoever on the inside, apart from a few emblems missing

Still, you pay soooo much less than we do

Untertürkheim

First of, yes, we are still friends.

It really does not make sense to talk about the base models, not only because the price difference is so huge or that the options exist, but I also cannot imagine buying a stripped down car.

About the "under-" statements, anyone (and I am sure you know this too) will interpret that as meaning deficient. Less powerful, less-braked, etc. have a different meaning and tone. There is no question that there was derision in some past posts. Because my aunt has an S class with more features than yours (or anyone else here), does that make yours under-equipped?

I am of course aware that nobody can be completely objective, but I was not accusing anyone's car of being under-anything.

I completely disagree that it is meaningless that these other companies have been bought out, I am sure you know that in business you must adapt/evolve or die. Bentley is meaningless now, they are cheap VWs. I would rather have a Phaeton than a Continental Flying Spur (rebadged VW).

Also, nothing makes the S/CL/SL any more holy than the other models. Nearly every S class sold is a diesel in the rest of the world (especially since the S420CDI has nearly the same torque and top speed as a 600 with 2/3 the displacement and 1/2 the consumptoin).

Another thing to consider, being able to have an environmentally-friendlier car like an S/CL/SL makes it the best option in fulfilling that aspect of Noblesse Oblige.

Lastly, some friendly advice, next time take factory delivery so that you can get rid of that limiter and actually use that car.

Untertürkheim

I thought the $12k designo package gives 5xx leather on the 550, at least that is what the salesman told me.

Untertürkheim

Except that the Lexus uses more fuel than an S550.

dimapb

EPA Mileage Estimates LS 600h L S-Class
City 20 mpg. 14 mpg.
Highway 22 mpg. 20 mpg.
Range in Miles LS 600h L S-Class
City 444 mi. 333 mi.
Highway 488 mi. 476 mi.
Fuel Data LS 600h L S-Class
Fuel Tank Capacity 22.2 gal. 23.8 gal.

Untertürkheim

EPA ratings are BS for the S550, check the European ratings and ask forum members here for confirmation, the highway fuel economy for the S550 is 27.

whoover

A designo interior gets you closer, but there are still some differences according to most people who've studied them up close.

Perhaps it's Canada only, but some have come without full leather:

https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w221/223700-surprised-designo-interior-08-s550.html

But there aren't that many around so it's hard to be definitive. In any case, that's a lot of money to spend to upgrade the leather. Unless you really love the designo paint or leather colors, you'd have to think hard about not just getting the S600. Especially when you consider that most designos would expected to be ordered loaded, and probably costing about the same as a 600.

Untertürkheim

I have done the calculation, the S550 with everything including designo is still significantly less than a 600.

Also, the the designo packages are stunning, they really transform the car, I could never order a car without it.

Red Marko

Untertürkheim,
hats off for being so civili in our discussion, sought after virtue lately on some MB posts...

Tell me one thing,
do you really think CL/SL would sell any Hibrids? (except some Hollywood assh*le wannabies ?)

Maybe I have some mental block, but somehow I can't picture diesel motor and torque (obvious) availability threten current V12.

Maybe, because my garden tractor Jonh Deere has diesel engine and I hate their fume smell?
Maybe, that's why folks are prefering 63 AMG (underpowered ) tune note vs. 600 obvious torque advantage. Or vice versa
Like I said. My possible mental block
Don't like diesels, should I mention, PA has diesel fuel prices much higher than premium 93 octane gas?
On the limiter limitations, are you suggesting straight factory order, without dealer involvment? Risky to say at least and probably not possible in US.

Untertürkheim

I always enjoy a good civil discussion in good taste, like you, I wish others would feel the same way.

Now the torque, the S420CDI is a 4 liter V8 that (from memory, although I believe it to be highly accurate) produces 540lb-ft of torque, while this is less than the 600's 612lb-ft, the diesel is mated to the 7g-tronic, which allows much better power delivery and flexibility, it simply better extracts the engine's potential better than the 5-speed. Interestingly, the 420CDI engine is the torque-iest engine that can use the 7G transmission, much more than the 550 or 63 engine.

Both can hit the 155 limiter with ease, but the 420 gets about 33mpg highway while the 600 will never get more than 23. Also, the 420 is quieter on the highway since the 7g transmission keeps the rpm lower, this was a very nice bonus (lower highway RPM also applies to the 550).

The new diesels do not smell at all, actually less oderous than a gasoline engine that usually has a raw fuel smell on a cold start.

US diesel prices are a joke, even in Los Angeles. We have the lowest quality diesel fuel of the developed world, and the highest diesel price relative to other fuels. The problem is that the diesel market in the US is so inelastic (long, seperate discussion).

Re: Factory Delivery, I simply mean to do a normal European Delivery order and to bring the car to a MB service center in Germany, they can disable that junk.

Sorry to get to this out of order, but regarding the SL and CL, I have two answers.
I think the SL would actually sell in a hybrid form, because it appeals to the "image" people, nouveau riche, poser, housewife, mistress crowd. All of which love anything hybrid.
The CL would sell better as a diesel, especially in Europe. It is a grand touring car, a banker's car, meant to be understated and unpretentious. These customers would welcome the CL420CDI as the preferred alternative to the CL500/550.

I would strongly encourage anyone who doubts the viability of a diesel to drive a 420CDI model against a 450/500/550 gasoline model.

amdeutsch

That may or may not be true. AFAIK US SW is different in so many ways from ROW SW. My understanding is that if you have US SW you will need password access to make changes. This appearently is different from ROW SW. Case in point; on my old W203 I had the instrument cluster replaced. I picked up the car and noticed right away it was ROW. I pointed it out. The dealer didn't believe but hooked up the DAS anyway. Sure enough, once he switched it to US the DAS wouldn't allow him to go back to ROW. HTH

Untertürkheim

Strange, it was not a problem for some friends who bought a US W211. Maybe the service center that they used has experience with this.

whoover

I love the look of the mocha/espresso designo. But the economics just don't swing it for me. A fully loaded designo S550 will be $125K, special ordered so you won't get any break. An S600 will list for $20K more but if you find one on a lot a little bit of bargaining will drive it down quite a bit. And you get the incredible twin-turbo V12, which is a driving experience quite unlike any other. So as much as I love that designo, it still comes down to trading a really nice color combination for an incredible engine. For me the engine generates more smile.

The other economic datapoint is that most of the $30K you're putting into S550 options will not come back at resale time. So if you buy the car and don't plan on keeping it forever you will take it on the chin. Sadly, that $12K designo package adds essentially nothing at resale time.

Untertürkheim

I cannot speak for the 2009, but I believe the 2008 S550 actually had a European delivery discount, although I think it was 5% instead of the usual 7%

Keep in mind that the 600 has much more deprediation than the 550 anyway, so after a few years you will probably wind up ahead with the 550.

Enough of that though, if you are concerned about depreciation or saving money or resale, buy a used one and save a ton. IMO, the price premium of a new car is completely wasted unless the car is built with no compromises.

whoover

Agreed. Mocha Black designo S65 FTW.

Untertürkheim

Mocha black, too pedestrian

I'll take chromaflair paint with exclusive natural marron interior and stone trim.