2007 S600 Crank, No start.
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2007 Mercedes S600
2007 S600 Crank, No start.
I've tried as much diagnostic work as I can before posting in hopes that someone knows more than I do about these cars. I have a 2007 S600 that has been an absolute joy to drive until recently it started having intermittent starting issues. I believe there is an issue with the throttle body, as the throttle angle reads 8.6 degrees with my foot off the throttle (acceptable range per my scanner is 0-2.4 I believe). My main question is can the electronic throttle body issue cause a no start condition on this car?
I've eliminated spark from the equation by spraying starter fluid directly in the TB and it starts. I removed the fuel pump and bench tested it, it runs correctly. The fuel pressure reading from the scanner is in the 40psi range, raising to the mid 50s during starting. There is fuel at the rail, I have not tested the actual pressure at the rail, I've only depressed the schrader valve to verify fuel spraying out, the pressure seems consistent with the pressure readings. I've tested injector pulse at the injector connectors, they seem to be working correctly. I've also changed the crank position sensor just as preventative maintenance and to rule it out as a possible culprit. Any ideas?
I have a Maxidas DS708 available to scan any system, so if anyone needs a specific reading to help with diagnostics, I'd be happy to rescan the car. A few other things I've checked, cam position hall sensor is reading correctly, crank speed is reading correctly, batteries are both fully charged and crank is strong.
I've eliminated spark from the equation by spraying starter fluid directly in the TB and it starts. I removed the fuel pump and bench tested it, it runs correctly. The fuel pressure reading from the scanner is in the 40psi range, raising to the mid 50s during starting. There is fuel at the rail, I have not tested the actual pressure at the rail, I've only depressed the schrader valve to verify fuel spraying out, the pressure seems consistent with the pressure readings. I've tested injector pulse at the injector connectors, they seem to be working correctly. I've also changed the crank position sensor just as preventative maintenance and to rule it out as a possible culprit. Any ideas?
I have a Maxidas DS708 available to scan any system, so if anyone needs a specific reading to help with diagnostics, I'd be happy to rescan the car. A few other things I've checked, cam position hall sensor is reading correctly, crank speed is reading correctly, batteries are both fully charged and crank is strong.
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2007 Mercedes S600
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2007 Mercedes S600
It's not the drive auth system, immobilizer is good to go, key is recognized and it's giving green lights across the board for drive auth in the scanner. Cam crank and temp all seem to be giving correct readings to the scanner. I'm going to test the fuel pressure at the rail this afternoon, do you happen to know where the fuel pressure is read in these cars? I seem to remember the fuel pressure sensor is on the filter/pressure regulator in the tank, which could mean it's losing pressure somewhere downstream from the pressure sensor.
If I'm not mistaken, drive auth would shut down spark as well, the car has good spark and sputters with starter fluid. If it's not the throttle body causing the problem, it's gotta be in the fuel system somewhere.
If I'm not mistaken, drive auth would shut down spark as well, the car has good spark and sputters with starter fluid. If it's not the throttle body causing the problem, it's gotta be in the fuel system somewhere.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Checked pressure at the rail, ~45 after being primed, ~53 during starting. I checked the injector pulse again, it looks like the voltage is low, only spiking to about 1.5-2v. Back to the diagnostic grind.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Already posted it. I did a bit more testing with the scanner today and everything keeps pointing back to the throttle body. I did an active test at idle and the throttle angle was sitting at 8.6 degrees when the test wanted 0-2.4 for idle, I also did an active test for full throttle where the test wanted 75 degrees or more on the throttle angle and foot to the floor the best I could get it to read was 38.
It turns out the M275 engine doesn't have a mass air flow sensor, which I was going to be suspecting next, and uses a combination of the throttle body, map sensor, and upstream/downstream pressure sensors to calculate engine load. I mention this because the scanner is reading a calculated load of 87.5% with it not even running. I went ahead and ordered a throttle body for it, even if that doesn't make it start it looks like that was an issue regardless. Will post back when it arrives. I'd be happy to entertain any other ideas of what it might be in the mean time.
Edit: tested the map sensor, it's reading 980 hPa with the engine off and drops slightly while cranking. 980hPa is damn close to atmospheric pressure, so it looks like the map sensor is doing its job correctly.
It turns out the M275 engine doesn't have a mass air flow sensor, which I was going to be suspecting next, and uses a combination of the throttle body, map sensor, and upstream/downstream pressure sensors to calculate engine load. I mention this because the scanner is reading a calculated load of 87.5% with it not even running. I went ahead and ordered a throttle body for it, even if that doesn't make it start it looks like that was an issue regardless. Will post back when it arrives. I'd be happy to entertain any other ideas of what it might be in the mean time.
Edit: tested the map sensor, it's reading 980 hPa with the engine off and drops slightly while cranking. 980hPa is damn close to atmospheric pressure, so it looks like the map sensor is doing its job correctly.
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Already posted it. I did a bit more testing with the scanner today and everything keeps pointing back to the throttle body. I did an active test at idle and the throttle angle was sitting at 8.6 degrees when the test wanted 0-2.4 for idle, I also did an active test for full throttle where the test wanted 75 degrees or more on the throttle angle and foot to the floor the best I could get it to read was 38.
It turns out the M275 engine doesn't have a mass air flow sensor, which I was going to be suspecting next, and uses a combination of the throttle body, map sensor, and upstream/downstream pressure sensors to calculate engine load. I mention this because the scanner is reading a calculated load of 87.5% with it not even running. I went ahead and ordered a throttle body for it, even if that doesn't make it start it looks like that was an issue regardless. Will post back when it arrives. I'd be happy to entertain any other ideas of what it might be in the mean time.
Edit: tested the map sensor, it's reading 980 hPa with the engine off and drops slightly while cranking. 980hPa is damn close to atmospheric pressure, so it looks like the map sensor is doing its job correctly.
It turns out the M275 engine doesn't have a mass air flow sensor, which I was going to be suspecting next, and uses a combination of the throttle body, map sensor, and upstream/downstream pressure sensors to calculate engine load. I mention this because the scanner is reading a calculated load of 87.5% with it not even running. I went ahead and ordered a throttle body for it, even if that doesn't make it start it looks like that was an issue regardless. Will post back when it arrives. I'd be happy to entertain any other ideas of what it might be in the mean time.
Edit: tested the map sensor, it's reading 980 hPa with the engine off and drops slightly while cranking. 980hPa is damn close to atmospheric pressure, so it looks like the map sensor is doing its job correctly.
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2007 Mercedes S600
It's got about 75,000 miles on it. I've only read of a few TBs going bad on these, but unfortunately it's not a super common motor so even the common issues aren't happening to people THAT often. Combine that with the fact that most people aren't going weekend warrior on their V12 mercedes and you end up with a pretty short list of common issues.
I'm just following what the scanner is telling me, I'd definitely be more confident if it were saying it was something else, but literally every other sensor is reading correctly and everything I've suspected is doing its job.
I'm just following what the scanner is telling me, I'd definitely be more confident if it were saying it was something else, but literally every other sensor is reading correctly and everything I've suspected is doing its job.
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2007 s550
I've tried as much diagnostic work as I can before posting in hopes that someone knows more than I do about these cars. I have a 2007 S600 that has been an absolute joy to drive until recently it started having intermittent starting issues. I believe there is an issue with the throttle body, as the throttle angle reads 8.6 degrees with my foot off the throttle (acceptable range per my scanner is 0-2.4 I believe). My main question is can the electronic throttle body issue cause a no start condition on this car?
I've eliminated spark from the equation by spraying starter fluid directly in the TB and it starts. I removed the fuel pump and bench tested it, it runs correctly. The fuel pressure reading from the scanner is in the 40psi range, raising to the mid 50s during starting. There is fuel at the rail, I have not tested the actual pressure at the rail, I've only depressed the schrader valve to verify fuel spraying out, the pressure seems consistent with the pressure readings. I've tested injector pulse at the injector connectors, they seem to be working correctly. I've also changed the crank position sensor just as preventative maintenance and to rule it out as a possible culprit. Any ideas?
I have a Maxidas DS708 available to scan any system, so if anyone needs a specific reading to help with diagnostics, I'd be happy to rescan the car. A few other things I've checked, cam position hall sensor is reading correctly, crank speed is reading correctly, batteries are both fully charged and crank is strong.
I've eliminated spark from the equation by spraying starter fluid directly in the TB and it starts. I removed the fuel pump and bench tested it, it runs correctly. The fuel pressure reading from the scanner is in the 40psi range, raising to the mid 50s during starting. There is fuel at the rail, I have not tested the actual pressure at the rail, I've only depressed the schrader valve to verify fuel spraying out, the pressure seems consistent with the pressure readings. I've tested injector pulse at the injector connectors, they seem to be working correctly. I've also changed the crank position sensor just as preventative maintenance and to rule it out as a possible culprit. Any ideas?
I have a Maxidas DS708 available to scan any system, so if anyone needs a specific reading to help with diagnostics, I'd be happy to rescan the car. A few other things I've checked, cam position hall sensor is reading correctly, crank speed is reading correctly, batteries are both fully charged and crank is strong.
Try to Switch out the fuel pump modules in the fuse box.
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2007 Mercedes S600
I was going to go looking for fuses next, but it seems like everything is getting power, unless there's some weird voodoo with the fuel pump module, the pump is getting full power when it's supposed to and there is full pressure at the rail (verified with a tester in addition to the scanner). In your case, was the fuel pump getting power when you had a bad fuel pump relay? (I assume you mean relay not module, unless there's a module in the fuse box that I don't know about).
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2007 s550
I was going to go looking for fuses next, but it seems like everything is getting power, unless there's some weird voodoo with the fuel pump module, the pump is getting full power when it's supposed to and there is full pressure at the rail (verified with a tester in addition to the scanner). In your case, was the fuel pump getting power when you had a bad fuel pump relay? (I assume you mean relay not module, unless there's a module in the fuse box that I don't know about).
Here was my post: months ago the car wouldn't start (in one out of four tries). The starting got progressively worse. I replaced the crank shaft sensor to no avail. The mechanic tested the fuel pump and it was good to go. He replaced the Fuel Pump Relay (A 002 542 13 19) and it worked perfectly.
Good luck
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2007 Mercedes S600
Yes pump had full power.
Here was my post: months ago the car wouldn't start (in one out of four tries). The starting got progressively worse. I replaced the crank shaft sensor to no avail. The mechanic tested the fuel pump and it was good to go. He replaced the Fuel Pump Relay (A 002 542 13 19) and it worked perfectly.
Good luck
Here was my post: months ago the car wouldn't start (in one out of four tries). The starting got progressively worse. I replaced the crank shaft sensor to no avail. The mechanic tested the fuel pump and it was good to go. He replaced the Fuel Pump Relay (A 002 542 13 19) and it worked perfectly.
Good luck
Edit, nevermind found them, looks like there are 2 relays and a module for the fuel system, do you remember if the one you replaced was in the front or rear SAM? It looks like the rear one is formally called the fuel pump module relay, so I'm guessing that one.
Last edited by GPrime2; May 12, 2016 at 10:41 PM.
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2007 Mercedes S600
I think that'd be a bit of a stretch, especially since I'm not getting even an attempt to start from it, spraying a little starter fluid gets it to sputter and I'm thinking if you were right it'd sputter but not start. The TB should be here tomorrow, and I'll try swapping the fuel pump relay with the cigar lighter relay just above it to see if that does it. Will report back tomorrow.
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Err. I meant once it cranks it might -not- provide sufficient pressure to start.
Let us know how it goes.
Have you reset throttle body adaptations/ teached in new body via das? However I do not believe it is a throttle body issue but more fuel rail pressure one. So pump, relays, ecu... In that order.
Let us know how it goes.
Have you reset throttle body adaptations/ teached in new body via das? However I do not believe it is a throttle body issue but more fuel rail pressure one. So pump, relays, ecu... In that order.
Last edited by alx; May 13, 2016 at 08:13 AM.
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2007 s550
That would make more sense to me than the throttle body would, especially if that relay controls the injectors. I assume it's in the rear SAM, any idea which one it is? I seem to remember there being 3 or 4 relays of the same size back there.
Edit, nevermind found them, looks like there are 2 relays and a module for the fuel system, do you remember if the one you replaced was in the front or rear SAM? It looks like the rear one is formally called the fuel pump module relay, so I'm guessing that one.
Edit, nevermind found them, looks like there are 2 relays and a module for the fuel system, do you remember if the one you replaced was in the front or rear SAM? It looks like the rear one is formally called the fuel pump module relay, so I'm guessing that one.
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2007 Mercedes S600
I found it, it was Relay S in the rear sam, I accessed it through the panel under the rear armrest passthrough thing, and from that view it was lower right, I swapped it for the cigar lighter right above it (same relay) and no difference in starting. There's another fuel pump relay in the front I'm going to try a bit later today, and hopefully the throttle body will be here today as well.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Err. I meant once it cranks it might -not- provide sufficient pressure to start.
Let us know how it goes.
Have you reset throttle body adaptations/ teached in new body via das? However I do not believe it is a throttle body issue but more fuel rail pressure one. So pump, relays, ecu... In that order.
Let us know how it goes.
Have you reset throttle body adaptations/ teached in new body via das? However I do not believe it is a throttle body issue but more fuel rail pressure one. So pump, relays, ecu... In that order.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Progress! @Bmwcrocop you're right, the fuel pump relay is not necessary for the pump to run, i removed it completely and tried starting the car and still got plenty of fuel flow. At no point do I hear it clicking though, even after switching it with the cigar lighter relay. So there appears to be an electrical issue back there, time to trace it.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Ok now we're getting somewhere. There is no voltage at pin 30 on the relay base. It should read 12V constant (I even checked with the key in the on position to make sure it doesn't have power only when the car is on), so there's a fuse or wiring issue somewhere upstream from the fuel pump relay. I'll check my wiring diagrams tonight and start tracing where that relay gets its 12V constant from, and start backtracking from there. I checked the fuses, they checked out.
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2007 s550
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2007 Mercedes S600
Yeah, if this were an issue that would show up in a scanner, I'd already have it fixed by now. It doesn't help that the fuel pump relay doesn't actually control the damn fuel pump. If I'd known there was a relay that controlled injector pulse but it wasn't called the injector relay, I'd be a few days further ahead on diagnosing this.
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2007 Mercedes S600
Looks like a dead end. Apparently the fuel pump relay doesn't do a damn thing on the M275 engine. If I'm reading this schematic correctly, U779 is the part specific to the M275 engine, which is saying the fuel pump runs when its told by N118 which is the fuel pump module under the rear left seat, and it gets power from the common line to N10/2 which is the rear SAM. The only thing in between there is a fuse, which can't be blown otherwise the fuel pump wouldn't run, which it does.
In the M273 engine (S550) the fuel pump relay energizes from the ECU and powers the fuel pump, the rear SAM is shared between the S550/S600, but it looks like the fuel pump relay doesn't do anything in the S600, but it should still have 12V at pin 30, even though its not used, simply because the two cars share the same Rear SAM. Unless I'm reading this wrong, in which case someone please correct me.
I'm going to try to find what actually supplies power to the injectors, and trace back from there, will update if I find anything.
Edit: The fuel injectors are fed by the engine computer, and again if I'm reading this right, it looks like they get their information from....the throttle valve actuator. If the TB is shot, the engine computer doesn't know how to pulse the injectors. I wish the damn throttle body had gotten here Friday, but I guess I'm done diagnosing until I can rule out the throttle body as the root of the problem. Too many things are pointing to it at this point.
Last edited by GPrime2; May 14, 2016 at 02:08 PM.
