gotthebenz?

Should be closing a deal on an 07 S600 next week and it has some 20's on it I'm not a big fan of. I've been looking at wheels I like; the wheels I happened to like were these sizes:

19x8.5 (square stance)
and 20x9.5 (square stance)

Would a set of 19x9.5 square stance work ok with no rubbing?

I know from the factory it is an 18" staggard stance. Will I have a problem with either of the above? I'm guessing I may have traction issues with the 19x8.5s in the rear? Any input is great.

I'm not a big fan of huge wheels and would like to retain some sort of ride quality. Thanks in advance!

Mike5215

Congrats! Fantastic car. Ride quality on an S is so good the feel between 19" and 20" makes little impact. Personally I think the car looks its best on 20".

I wouldn't run 9.5" up front regardless of wheel diameter. Too much tire. Square would be 8.5, but an 8.5" 20 rear looks a little too tall and thin from behind.

Staggered is actually the smartest set up. You get some meat on the rears and the right amount of tire up front.

The 600 develops a sick amount of torque to the rears. I'd want the larger tread contact patch.

Lots of good aftermarket staggered wheel packages on EBay. Search "20" AMG style wheels". You can ignore the models the seller says the wheels will fit. You're looking for a 45mm offset wheel. It'll fit 2000+ S Class, CL Class, and 2008-2014 C Class including the C63. (OEM is actually 44mm. Aftermarket replicas have to vary in some way to skirt the rules on counterfeit.)

alx

Oh gawd- get as much rubber as you can at the rear. Looks be damned, you simply need the traction. With an open diff right side tire burnouts are the norm

Welwynnick

If you want looks, get the largest diameter wheels you can fit.

If you want ride, get the smallest diameter wheels you can fit (which is 18's).

4 x 19 x 9.5 would be a great fitment IMHO, as long as the offset is 42 - 44mm.

I put 4 x 20 x 10 with 275/30's on my second S600. They don't rub, but it's pushing the limits. The tires are stretched and they definitely don't ride or wear as well as 9.5's.

Nick

gotthebenz?

Nick, is that offset necessary to fit the larger brakes of the 600? Do you think 19x9.5" in the front will rub or stick out too much? Thanks!

Welwynnick

No, nothing to do with the brakes, there's plenty of room for them.

I found that if you have an offset less than 40mm, the tires will rub on the outside.

If you have an offset greater than 46mm, the tires will rub on the inside.

Fitting 275 tires all round on my cars was one of the best things I've ever done. It really unearths the innate capability of the chassis.

Nick

DaveW68

My wheels are 8.5" front with 38 offset and 10" rear with 35 offset. They look fairly aggressive (especially the rears) with no rubbing whatsoever. The S600 and S65 were built specifically for a staggered set-up. I wouldn't try running a boxed set-up.

Welwynnick

Have you tried it?
I have.
It was one the best things I've ever done.

Nick

DaveW68

Running a boxed setup is the best thing you've ever done? It sounds like you live a pretty boring life.

Mike5215

Yeah. The best thing I've ever done involved two cocktail waitresses, an eight ball and a boat.

alx

Let me guess- you had fun with both waitresses until in the heat of the moment you tried to use the 8th ball for nefaruous purposes resulting in you getting sued and losing your boat?

Mike5215

This was South Florida in the 80's. An "eight ball" is an 8th of a gram of coke. If you had a boat and a bunch of coke the cocktail waitresses pretty much just showed up.

gotthebenz?

Nick sorry to bother but my head is spinning. I went to buy a set of Rep wheels (either 18 or 19, I honestly am more concerned about ride than looks).

The guy told me I need to buy 35mm offset because on replica wheels where the tire mounts is in a different place than a stock wheel. I believe its likely nonsense because I'm guessing all he was selling was 35mm offset. Anyway thanks for your help.

Mike5215

Well the wheel does mount up differently on a 35mm vs 45mm. The backplate (the area where the back of the rim meets the hub of the car) is 10mm closer to the wheel's center line, which pushes the wheel further outward.

Nothing whatsoever to do with where or how the tire mounts up.

That offset is the only difference and it has nothing to do with them being reps vs OEM vs aftermarket.

gotthebenz?

Yeah I figured offset is offset, its just the measurement is different. With a 19x8.5 in the front and a 19x8.5 in the rear, would the 35 offset have any rubbing issues? Look stupid? Thanks!

Mike5215

No. On my 221 I went with 20mm spacers on the 9.5" rear (24mm effective offset) and 15mm front (29mm effective) on the 8.5" front and that was flush. Couldn't go another mm without rubbing.

So 8.5" at 35mm is safe. They'll look good, pushed more outward vs OEM but no risk of rubbing.

gotthebenz?

Thanks a lot Mike. Last question for ya; is the stock tire size a good one to go with? Does the offset change anything when it comes to tire size? Thanks

Mike5215

No, offset only changes the backplate position relative from the center line. You can vary the tire width and sidewall ratio since a single wheel can accommodate a range of widths.

Tire width only becomes a factor when you both lower offsets AND increase wheel width. Lowering moves the wheel closer to the fender lip, and the wider wheel moves it that much closer by half the extra width. So makes sure you have enough clearance for the lower offset, AND half the extra wheel width.

DaveW68

8.5" is way too narrow for the rears on an S600. Not only will it look out of place, but it will handle and grip worse.

Welwynnick

Yes, your vendor is definitely trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

Happy independence Day.

Nick

Welwynnick

Let me guess - you're guessing, right?

Yes, I did try it, and it worked OK. Sure, it looked worse than staggered, but it rode smoother and quieter. Yes, the grip was worse, but it was only a small degradation, and less than the improvement in ride.

I think 245/45 on 4 x 18 x 8.5 is a sweet spot for the W220, certainly on the S500 & S600 NA. The ride/handling compromise is very nice. My 20's do improve the grip, but the ride is very surface sensitive; sometimes quite acceptable, sometimes completely unacceptable.

Having said that, I don't think 245 is enough rubber for a 2 ton, 500 bhp car, and my chassis really came alive with 265 and 275 tires all round. It can still ride well, though, and here's the secret.

Firstly, fit 18x9 or 18x9.5 wheels all round, and fit 264/40 or 275/40 tires. that combo works like magic. It puts enough rubber on the road, but it retains reasonably deep sidewalls that allow the tire to absorb bumps that are dimensionally shorter than the tire contact patch - something that shallow sidewalls on 35 and especially 30 series tires are particularly bad at.

Secondly, never use directional tires - use modern asymmetric tires with longitudinal tread patterns. They might be poor in winter, but they're very quiet. Couple those with 40 aspect ratio and you get a car that really rides like a limo should, but grips like a sports car. It feels very isolated and detached from the road. That also extends to the steering, which is still imprecise and short of feel, but I guess you can't have everything.

I say all this because I've tried it and done it and found out for myself. I've tried a lot of things, and some things work and some things don't, but you can't find that out by just typing at a keyboard.

Regards, Nick

Mike5215

There's no disputing the logic here...that 18" wheels put a lot of sidewall under the car which smooths out the ride. They also loosen up the handling, but that's a matter of preference and the aesthetics aren't ideal either although that's a matter of taste.

I'd be interested to see how "odd" the car actually looks on 18's if you have pics.

Edit: Wait...do you have a 220 S 600? The 220 chassis base wheel was 17" and it got staggered 18" with the AMG Sport package, which look perfectly proportioned on the car. A 220 S600 shipped with staggered 18's in 245/265. Neither 19 or 20 were options. Going 245 18" square makes sense. Those are the right wheels and tires for a 220 S600.

I have plenty of pics of 220's on 18"

They're one (or two) inches undersized for a 221 S 600 though.

DaveW68

First of all, this is the W221 board. I've never owned a W220, but it would seem, based on your experience that the ride must be pretty harsh and sensitive on that chassis of the S600 if you notice such big difference. Second, the ABC suspension of the W221, if working properly does a very good job at providing a smooth ride whether it be on 18, 19, or 20" wheels. I run my original (and ugly) 18" wheels with snow tires in the winter and notice very little, if any difference in ride comfort when I swap to the 20's in the Spring. Perhaps it's all of the cobbled roads that you guys in the UK have to drive on. We don't have many of those over here in the US....except sometimes in some old village squares. But I do notice a nice improvement in handling when I switch over to the 20's.

It's apparent that you like your setup. But that doesn't mean that a setup not meant for the 5000 lb W221 S600 is right for the OP. I know that you think that you're smarter than the MB engineers who designed these cars, but that is unlikely. The S600 and S65 were designed with a staggered setup for a reason. And really, the only reason to go down to an 18" wheel is if your roads are loaded with potholes....as the taller tire profile provides a little more protection from bending wheels.

Welwynnick

I have a lot of respect for engineers (apart from those responsible for the unforgivably idiotic elements of the IC and ABC systems), but less so for marketing folks.

There certainly was a good reason for fitting staggered wheels, but I don't think it was an engineering reason. They work well in some cars like BMW M, Porsche, Ferrari, etc - but only as long as the suspension was designed around them.

When ABC was introduced, it was on CL500, CL600 and S600 models that had a square plan, and it worked well. I owned a couple of S600 NA, and the chassis felt like it was properly developed, it just worked very well. Then I got an S600TT, and though the power was great (when everything was working) the chassis felt like a retrograde step. It rode worse, AND it handled worse. In fact, apart from the speed it really wasn't great to drive, and I began to wonder why I was sticking with an S-class.

I have an embarrassing number of wheels and tires about (witness my wife's incessant but not unreasonable complaints) and I tried a lot of different combinations of sizes and positions. I presume that somebody at MB must have done this as well, and yet they still sold a car with staggered wheels, knowing full well how good it would it would be without. I've wrestled and reasoned with that for a long time, and the only conclusion I can come up with is that marketing must have decided that cars like these must have staggered wheels, because that's what people expect.

Fortunately, I can do what I want with my car (and I've done a lot things, such as fitting an engine radiator to cool the IC) and curiosity got the better of me. Sometimes curiosity doesn't help. For example, I made some uprated steering rack bushes in an attempt to improve the feel and precision of the steering. This helped considerably on an old Jag of mine, but it was no help at all on the MB. Wide front tires did help, though. They helped a lot, and there's no going back.

If I had a W221 (and it will probably one day soon) I will be crossing my fingers that 275/35 on 20x9.5 fit at the front. Wheels seem to get one size bigger with each succeeding model, and I think the W221 continues that trend.

Nick

DaveW68

I'm fairly certain that the staggered set-up in the S600 and S65 has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with engineering & handling dynamics. Really, the only reason to have a squared set-up on these cars is for the ability to rotate tires. But that obviously wasn't the engineer's intentions. The W221 S600 is a very comfortable car with a fairly soft ride, even with ABC...as that is the way that they have the ABC programmed. From what I understand, the power steering and ABC can be reprogrammed through STAR to S65 parameters, which would obviously stiffen the ride and handling. That would seem to be counter-intuitive to the intent of the S600 ride, but I can understand why some folks who didn't want to shell out the extra premium for the AMG would want to do so. I respect that you have much experience with the W220 S600's of various years. But you probably shouldn't be advising the OP to go with a squared set-up or wheel sizes on his W221 S600 when you have no personal experience with that chassis. The advice is better left up to us who do own these particular cars to share our personal experiences that the OP can draw from.