2014 S-class
#201
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A few horses...and an '09 GS350
The Pullman version might not do very well, because anybody who is in that class would probably want an exclusive brand, not a Mercedes (I think this is clear, because the old S was already so much more technologically advanced than Rolls'/Bentleys, and people still bought them over it, which says a lot), maybe that was the case 50 years ago, while I think the CLA/C are good cars, their affordability is driving away some of the very high end customers on the other end of the spectrum diminishing Mercedes' appeal. The whole point of the Maybach was that it was a Maybach, not a top of the line Mercedes. It is like getting rid of the LS460, and having a super Avalon in its place.
Last edited by -NeObLaZtEr-; 07-09-2013 at 01:44 AM.
#202
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
The Pullman version might not do very well, because anybody who is in that class would probably want an exclusive brand, not a Mercedes (I think this is clear, because the old S was already so much more technologically advanced than Rolls'/Bentleys, and people still bought them over it, which says a lot), maybe that was the case 50 years ago, while I think the CLA/C are good cars, their affordability is driving away some of the very high end customers on the other end of the spectrum diminishing Mercedes' appeal. The whole point of the Maybach was that it was a Maybach, not a top of the line Mercedes. It is like getting rid of the LS460, and having a super Avalon in its place.
I feel the one M-B that's impervious to that is the S. The S will always have status and cachet. It's the one high priced product that can truly back up its premium in a non-superfluous way. It's a functional tool that you can't get for a lower price (the size, the stature, the utility, etc.). At the same time, the M-B brand moving increasingly downmarket and now bringing FWD upmarket-economy models to the U.S will make the S have a harder time competing against the RR/Bentleys for those who have the money and want to have the most cachet they can for their bucks. M-B is doing their best to curb this by going all-out on the W222, which I'm sure is partly because they know they will have more of an uphill battle going forward in the ultra-premium class as the M-B "Star" gets dominated by "lower priced" cars.
Last edited by K-A; 07-09-2013 at 03:04 AM.
#204
I realize with my comment I simply exacerbated what I complained about. And I am not going to counteract any of your replies, lest I want some more back (they may well be deserved). I used to be a big visitor of MBWorld and currently am a daily visitor of GCF.
KA, you mentioned rants. That is what I protested about. There may be very few participants in threads like this, but there are many readers (hence my 12 posts). I guess I had some baggage with you from GCF and picked on you. Sorry! All others, did not mean to come across as holier than though. If it helps you, think of me as extremely jealous of all of you.
I am a busy professional with a penchant for cars and love to hear the nitty gritty. At a young age I led myself down an unwise path of owning expensive luxury cars, while not accumulating hard assets. I wish I had had some good MBworld.org minds speaking the truth about practical stuff such as maintenance, value etc. I owned, consecutively in short order, a 2002 M5 (until 2004), a 2005 S 600 (through 2006) and a 2007 SL 600 (through 2007). I realize now that I did not afford those cars as a mid-twenties guy leveraged to the hilt. Yes, I was in the "booming" business of real estate.
Fast forward a good few years, I have never been in a better position to date to own an S Class (currently my favorite, and a goal car), but the recession I went through thoroughly changed how I view my lifestyle. It gets a bit ridiculous when I have analysts working for me that drive S/SL etc and I, the person who signs their checks, have something worth a third of that sticker (it is hybrid). I guess they haven't been where I have been (good for them).
I am getting to the point when I am actually ready to pull the plug. Although I am loving the 222, I think the CLS is the better way to reenter. I am coming here to this board to hear from prospective owners, and current owners of the 221. But I find myself very bothered by the back and forth. Nonetheless, I will keep that opinion to myself and read quietly
KA, you mentioned rants. That is what I protested about. There may be very few participants in threads like this, but there are many readers (hence my 12 posts). I guess I had some baggage with you from GCF and picked on you. Sorry! All others, did not mean to come across as holier than though. If it helps you, think of me as extremely jealous of all of you.
I am a busy professional with a penchant for cars and love to hear the nitty gritty. At a young age I led myself down an unwise path of owning expensive luxury cars, while not accumulating hard assets. I wish I had had some good MBworld.org minds speaking the truth about practical stuff such as maintenance, value etc. I owned, consecutively in short order, a 2002 M5 (until 2004), a 2005 S 600 (through 2006) and a 2007 SL 600 (through 2007). I realize now that I did not afford those cars as a mid-twenties guy leveraged to the hilt. Yes, I was in the "booming" business of real estate.
Fast forward a good few years, I have never been in a better position to date to own an S Class (currently my favorite, and a goal car), but the recession I went through thoroughly changed how I view my lifestyle. It gets a bit ridiculous when I have analysts working for me that drive S/SL etc and I, the person who signs their checks, have something worth a third of that sticker (it is hybrid). I guess they haven't been where I have been (good for them).
I am getting to the point when I am actually ready to pull the plug. Although I am loving the 222, I think the CLS is the better way to reenter. I am coming here to this board to hear from prospective owners, and current owners of the 221. But I find myself very bothered by the back and forth. Nonetheless, I will keep that opinion to myself and read quietly
#206
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Who ever said that it is your dissenting opinion that holds weight to me or gets me emotional? That doesn't annoy me one bit, be as negative or positive as you wish. Even if you were positive, but just had too many damn posts on every thread I would get annoyed. It is your constant unregulated blabber and title you have given yourself for it of "forum personality" that everyone is tired of. Just write your opinion once or twice and don't make every thread a K-A thread. Members would like to read what other people have to say as well without scrolling through 2 pages of K-A.
Lastly, stop trying to use your f****** "I have helped out so many people hahahahah...they credit me" bull**** for leverage for anything. You helped them out because you wanted to, or you contributed to a thread with an interesting opinion that made a fun read, I thank you for that, now do you want a prize for it? I fail to see how that just entitles you to clog up every thread. I will say that there was a time when I would really enjoy reading your posts, positive or incredibly negative, they brought some fresh new perspective that a thread would lack, but now you are a little too repetitious. Would you agree with anything I am saying?
Lastly, stop trying to use your f****** "I have helped out so many people hahahahah...they credit me" bull**** for leverage for anything. You helped them out because you wanted to, or you contributed to a thread with an interesting opinion that made a fun read, I thank you for that, now do you want a prize for it? I fail to see how that just entitles you to clog up every thread. I will say that there was a time when I would really enjoy reading your posts, positive or incredibly negative, they brought some fresh new perspective that a thread would lack, but now you are a little too repetitious. Would you agree with anything I am saying?
M
#207
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A few horses...and an '09 GS350
GC1,
I will admit K-A can sometimes have clueless banter that is sometimes worthy of tremendous hate, but lets not forget, the sheer level of depth/color and outright passion in some of his posts can blow a person away, it is such a true passion that runs through his bloodstream. It is something to be appreciated and admired. I feel all the hatred towards K-A is much exaggerated.
Lets all stop talking about other members, and get back to the main point of this thread. A place for people to read and get intrigued by various perspectives of this car, and not members. NO MORE CRITICISM/OPINIONS OF ANY OTHER MEMBERS FROM ANYBODY, PLEASE TRY TO KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELVES.
I will admit K-A can sometimes have clueless banter that is sometimes worthy of tremendous hate, but lets not forget, the sheer level of depth/color and outright passion in some of his posts can blow a person away, it is such a true passion that runs through his bloodstream. It is something to be appreciated and admired. I feel all the hatred towards K-A is much exaggerated.
Lets all stop talking about other members, and get back to the main point of this thread. A place for people to read and get intrigued by various perspectives of this car, and not members. NO MORE CRITICISM/OPINIONS OF ANY OTHER MEMBERS FROM ANYBODY, PLEASE TRY TO KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELVES.
#208
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
I realize with my comment I simply exacerbated what I complained about. And I am not going to counteract any of your replies, lest I want some more back (they may well be deserved). I used to be a big visitor of MBWorld and currently am a daily visitor of GCF.
KA, you mentioned rants. That is what I protested about. There may be very few participants in threads like this, but there are many readers (hence my 12 posts). I guess I had some baggage with you from GCF and picked on you. Sorry! All others, did not mean to come across as holier than though. If it helps you, think of me as extremely jealous of all of you.
I am a busy professional with a penchant for cars and love to hear the nitty gritty. At a young age I led myself down an unwise path of owning expensive luxury cars, while not accumulating hard assets. I wish I had had some good MBworld.org minds speaking the truth about practical stuff such as maintenance, value etc. I owned, consecutively in short order, a 2002 M5 (until 2004), a 2005 S 600 (through 2006) and a 2007 SL 600 (through 2007). I realize now that I did not afford those cars as a mid-twenties guy leveraged to the hilt. Yes, I was in the "booming" business of real estate.
Fast forward a good few years, I have never been in a better position to date to own an S Class (currently my favorite, and a goal car), but the recession I went through thoroughly changed how I view my lifestyle. It gets a bit ridiculous when I have analysts working for me that drive S/SL etc and I, the person who signs their checks, have something worth a third of that sticker (it is hybrid). I guess they haven't been where I have been (good for them).
I am getting to the point when I am actually ready to pull the plug. Although I am loving the 222, I think the CLS is the better way to reenter. I am coming here to this board to hear from prospective owners, and current owners of the 221. But I find myself very bothered by the back and forth. Nonetheless, I will keep that opinion to myself and read quietly
KA, you mentioned rants. That is what I protested about. There may be very few participants in threads like this, but there are many readers (hence my 12 posts). I guess I had some baggage with you from GCF and picked on you. Sorry! All others, did not mean to come across as holier than though. If it helps you, think of me as extremely jealous of all of you.
I am a busy professional with a penchant for cars and love to hear the nitty gritty. At a young age I led myself down an unwise path of owning expensive luxury cars, while not accumulating hard assets. I wish I had had some good MBworld.org minds speaking the truth about practical stuff such as maintenance, value etc. I owned, consecutively in short order, a 2002 M5 (until 2004), a 2005 S 600 (through 2006) and a 2007 SL 600 (through 2007). I realize now that I did not afford those cars as a mid-twenties guy leveraged to the hilt. Yes, I was in the "booming" business of real estate.
Fast forward a good few years, I have never been in a better position to date to own an S Class (currently my favorite, and a goal car), but the recession I went through thoroughly changed how I view my lifestyle. It gets a bit ridiculous when I have analysts working for me that drive S/SL etc and I, the person who signs their checks, have something worth a third of that sticker (it is hybrid). I guess they haven't been where I have been (good for them).
I am getting to the point when I am actually ready to pull the plug. Although I am loving the 222, I think the CLS is the better way to reenter. I am coming here to this board to hear from prospective owners, and current owners of the 221. But I find myself very bothered by the back and forth. Nonetheless, I will keep that opinion to myself and read quietly
GC1,
I will admit K-A can sometimes have clueless banter that is sometimes worthy of tremendous hate, but lets not forget, the sheer level of depth/color and outright passion in some of his posts can blow a person away, it is such a true passion that runs through his bloodstream. It is something to be appreciated and admired. I feel all the hatred towards K-A is much exaggerated.
Lets all stop talking about other members, and get back to the main point of this thread. A place for people to read and get intrigued by various perspectives of this car, and not members. NO MORE CRITICISM/OPINIONS OF ANY OTHER MEMBERS FROM ANYBODY, PLEASE TRY TO KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELVES.
I will admit K-A can sometimes have clueless banter that is sometimes worthy of tremendous hate, but lets not forget, the sheer level of depth/color and outright passion in some of his posts can blow a person away, it is such a true passion that runs through his bloodstream. It is something to be appreciated and admired. I feel all the hatred towards K-A is much exaggerated.
Lets all stop talking about other members, and get back to the main point of this thread. A place for people to read and get intrigued by various perspectives of this car, and not members. NO MORE CRITICISM/OPINIONS OF ANY OTHER MEMBERS FROM ANYBODY, PLEASE TRY TO KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELVES.
And spot on, on the last part. Discussing members is something that a thread shouldn't detract to. I'm here to talk cars and can do it till I turn blue. Leave the wars to Twitter and the like.
And back to the W222:
Here's a new Test Drive/Review:
Last edited by K-A; 07-10-2013 at 07:02 AM.
#210
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2012 CLS63
If I get an S it WILL NOT be anything less than 550 LOL...........
why would someone buy the boat with such low power?
why would someone buy the boat with such low power?
#212
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
2 things that that have me thinking about those who will early-adopt this car:
1- You've got a high technology car with robust powerplants but an incredibly outdated and frankly lousy 7G transmission which will ONLY apparently be on the S for one year (2014 MY). If you're buying (not leasing) the car, you might want to consider waiting for future resale (a one-off 7G on the W222 won't bode well in the future).
2- The pricing with options I just noticed seem significantly higher (or easier to get higher, at least) than the W221? Initially M-B will charge full MSRP for the car I'm sure. However, if you look at basically every other Mercedes out right now, they're in an era where they're being discounted to levels I frankly have never seen from a Premium Car manufacturer. I constantly get Dealer offers in my Email and the C and E are both being practically given away, the CLS seems to get cheaper and cheaper into prices/Leases that the E Class used to command and even the SL is already being slashed significantly in prices. As discussed earlier, these higher priced M-B's are showing lagging sales over outgoing bodystyles and even year over year in many cases, so they're seeing the largest continuous discounts. M-B's sales growth is being spurred by the lower priced cars (with more to come) and arguably it can be considered those are also cannibalizing the higher priced cars sales.
Which begs the question: Will the S follow route? If the CLS or SL are any indication, simply waiting a year or so will get you drastically better deals, and a 9G transmission probably.
My prediction is as higher priced M-B's have a tougher time commanding MSRP, the S will be the one that can command at least a closer % of the asking price, as like I said before it's really the only one that backs it up with functionality and necessity. If someone KNOWS why they want an S, they would have a tough time settling for an E, even if it will cost them like 1/3'rd in Lease payments perhaps....
However, one has to wonder still.... if when taking heart and brain into consideration, is it wiser for them to get it right away, or wait. Both have their pros and cons. I see lots of members contemplating those pros and cons. It may be difficult, but I'd wait, unless money is no object.
1- You've got a high technology car with robust powerplants but an incredibly outdated and frankly lousy 7G transmission which will ONLY apparently be on the S for one year (2014 MY). If you're buying (not leasing) the car, you might want to consider waiting for future resale (a one-off 7G on the W222 won't bode well in the future).
2- The pricing with options I just noticed seem significantly higher (or easier to get higher, at least) than the W221? Initially M-B will charge full MSRP for the car I'm sure. However, if you look at basically every other Mercedes out right now, they're in an era where they're being discounted to levels I frankly have never seen from a Premium Car manufacturer. I constantly get Dealer offers in my Email and the C and E are both being practically given away, the CLS seems to get cheaper and cheaper into prices/Leases that the E Class used to command and even the SL is already being slashed significantly in prices. As discussed earlier, these higher priced M-B's are showing lagging sales over outgoing bodystyles and even year over year in many cases, so they're seeing the largest continuous discounts. M-B's sales growth is being spurred by the lower priced cars (with more to come) and arguably it can be considered those are also cannibalizing the higher priced cars sales.
Which begs the question: Will the S follow route? If the CLS or SL are any indication, simply waiting a year or so will get you drastically better deals, and a 9G transmission probably.
My prediction is as higher priced M-B's have a tougher time commanding MSRP, the S will be the one that can command at least a closer % of the asking price, as like I said before it's really the only one that backs it up with functionality and necessity. If someone KNOWS why they want an S, they would have a tough time settling for an E, even if it will cost them like 1/3'rd in Lease payments perhaps....
However, one has to wonder still.... if when taking heart and brain into consideration, is it wiser for them to get it right away, or wait. Both have their pros and cons. I see lots of members contemplating those pros and cons. It may be difficult, but I'd wait, unless money is no object.
Last edited by K-A; 07-11-2013 at 04:25 AM.
#213
Super Member
spot on, k-a! i was at my dealer yesterday, and he basically mirrored what you said above. whilst he denied and disavowed any knowledge about a transmission upgrade in '15 (with a wink and a nod), of course, he conceded that he will command (or "comand" in benzo, speak, hahahahaha!) and get full msrp for the first year. he already has 50+ orders for the 222 and said people are willing to pay full sticker for the "i'm the first one (or 1 of 50 apparently!) on the block to have it" back-bowing ability. i won't judge people as i try (failingly sometimes) not to do that. suffice it to say, instead of being order #51, *i* took advantage of the ridiculously low prices on the outgoing 221 instead. and then i'll wait for the teething pains to pass, the introduction of new 9g and a better deal on a new 222 in 2 years or so. and this goes without saying, i will be reading these boards in the interim about everyone's experiences as the early 222 adopters.
#214
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
spot on, k-a! i was at my dealer yesterday, and he basically mirrored what you said above. whilst he denied and disavowed any knowledge about a transmission upgrade in '15 (with a wink and a nod), of course, he conceded that he will command (or "comand" in benzo, speak, hahahahaha!) and get full msrp for the first year. he already has 50+ orders for the 222 and said people are willing to pay full sticker for the "i'm the first one (or 1 of 50 apparently!) on the block to have it" back-bowing ability. i won't judge people as i try (failingly sometimes) not to do that. suffice it to say, instead of being order #51, *i* took advantage of the ridiculously low prices on the outgoing 221 instead. and then i'll wait for the teething pains to pass, the introduction of new 9g and a better deal on a new 222 in 2 years or so. and this goes without saying, i will be reading these boards in the interim about everyone's experiences as the early 222 adopters.
Often you see early adopters happy enough for the first year of "nobody has it but me" memories, however IMO even more often when there's a car of this caliber with lagging elements (i.e a practically decade (?) old transmission that was never great to begin with) they seem to feel shortchanged when in the future, all other MY drivers have the newest drivetrain. Of course, we don't *KNOW* if the 9G comes, so it could be a crapshoot (but we're pretty sure it will).
I got a 2010 E Class in 2010 when the body style was all the rage and hoopla, and got one of the better deals at the time on the first year car (better than about anyone I compared to).... but afterwards once the W212's started embarking on what I perceive to be "the most discounted car in history" it made me quite upset.... to be paying practically hundreds more than some people with the exact same car just a newer model year (I traded for a 2011 after a year and got my payments reduced a lot).
I personally would "forewarn" prospective S buyers who put "value" high on their list (I know it sounds funny but even S shoppers look for value I'm certain) that this era of Mercedes may have different circumstances on its pricing once the "initial newness" wears off. Again, looking at declining YOY growth of most upmarket M-B's, declining numbers compared to previous body styles during eras where Mercedes had less "lower priced" models coming in to cannibalize them and disallow Mercedes from going into "price slashing" territory, I wouldn't be surprised if W222's start seeing significant discounts earlier and more heavily than the lesser-priced W221's did. I don't think it'll get as bad as C/E/CLS/SL discounts but it'll be better than full-MSRP which the W222 will have enough pent-up demand to get during its first year, IMO.
EDIT: Just came across this. An article on the W212 compared to an F01 (haven't read it yet). I know most here won't agree with me and perhaps strongly so, but in this segment I still think the F01 based off of its design balance and holistic beauty is hard to aesthetically beat. The S appears smaller in this pic but not sure if that's some camera trickery due to the angles/distances of the cars. It may just be smaller if the W221 is smaller as the W222/W221 are the same dimensions.
Last edited by K-A; 07-11-2013 at 08:20 AM.
#215
Super Member
k-a, my good man, you are much too generous in your supposition that this board both is fluent in german (though that might go with the territory!) and maintains an acutely supreme superman-like ocular function!
#216
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A few horses...and an '09 GS350
spot on, k-a! i was at my dealer yesterday, and he basically mirrored what you said above. whilst he denied and disavowed any knowledge about a transmission upgrade in '15 (with a wink and a nod), of course, he conceded that he will command (or "comand" in benzo, speak, hahahahaha!) and get full msrp for the first year. he already has 50+ orders for the 222 and said people are willing to pay full sticker for the "i'm the first one (or 1 of 50 apparently!) on the block to have it" back-bowing ability. i won't judge people as i try (failingly sometimes) not to do that. suffice it to say, instead of being order #51, *i* took advantage of the ridiculously low prices on the outgoing 221 instead. and then i'll wait for the teething pains to pass, the introduction of new 9g and a better deal on a new 222 in 2 years or so. and this goes without saying, i will be reading these boards in the interim about everyone's experiences as the early 222 adopters.
#218
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
I personally don't put too much stock on some of K-A's predictions. While MB is developing a 9 speed transmission (for years I might add), there has been no suggestion of an imminent implementation in the new S-Class; at least I haven't seen any specifics (happen to have family relation working at Mercedes).
Not saying it's not coming, but for me not worth holding an order. A 9 speed transmission simply isn't important enough and quite frankly the 7 speed is quite good on the 2013 models. I can't compare the old E-Class transmission as I only know the current S and SL class ones.
It was a much more dramatic update when MB moved the 221 from a slow naturally aspirated engine to a higher powered twin turbo engine. Those buying the old engine model were screwed to be sure.
The other issue is the one of pricing and reliability. First year gremlins still exist, but less so than before. Friends that bought the new SL in 2012 had zero issues, so it is possible to have reliable cars from the get-go.
I expect no huge discounts until November, so pricing will definitely be higher. While I look for great value, I don't need $20k off sticker if the other conditions are right (money factor etc.).
That said, the 221 S-Class is a beautiful car that has has been cheap for over a year now (at least $15-$20k off) and they had special 18 months gap leases to bridge to the new model.
I my view that's a win-win. Pick what you like, but I think the whole conversation is completely pre-mature. Until we have 2 real cars to compare from the driver seat, who is to say what is worth a $200 difference is monthly lease payments?
Not saying it's not coming, but for me not worth holding an order. A 9 speed transmission simply isn't important enough and quite frankly the 7 speed is quite good on the 2013 models. I can't compare the old E-Class transmission as I only know the current S and SL class ones.
It was a much more dramatic update when MB moved the 221 from a slow naturally aspirated engine to a higher powered twin turbo engine. Those buying the old engine model were screwed to be sure.
The other issue is the one of pricing and reliability. First year gremlins still exist, but less so than before. Friends that bought the new SL in 2012 had zero issues, so it is possible to have reliable cars from the get-go.
I expect no huge discounts until November, so pricing will definitely be higher. While I look for great value, I don't need $20k off sticker if the other conditions are right (money factor etc.).
That said, the 221 S-Class is a beautiful car that has has been cheap for over a year now (at least $15-$20k off) and they had special 18 months gap leases to bridge to the new model.
I my view that's a win-win. Pick what you like, but I think the whole conversation is completely pre-mature. Until we have 2 real cars to compare from the driver seat, who is to say what is worth a $200 difference is monthly lease payments?
#222
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A few horses...and an '09 GS350
It feels very strange to watch this video after seeing so many of the W222, this is what this car started off as. Automatic seats were an innovation, the W222 has more controls for the seat than its great-grandaddy had for the whole car...
Last edited by -NeObLaZtEr-; 07-13-2013 at 04:55 PM.
#223
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
W126 will always be king and every S Class after it benchmarked against it during its time. I.e there's no greater compliment to any S than someone dubbing it "The Next W126". It's like the Michael Jordan of luxury sedans.