By copy, I didn't mean looks. Mercedes, for the first time started an active public relations department, where they listened to criticisms from the public, etc. and how Lexus "was so much better", but those were "American" views. But, they listened and changed the car to be the likes of Lexus, etc, which upset owners used to the German quality feel. I've read a few articles about this and wish I could find them.

I remember a guy who bought a W140, back in 1999, and then when the w220 came out in 2000, he traded the w140 because the "new model" was out, but completely regretted it. Now, you would have to own an S before the w220 to know this. So if the 220 was your first Mercedes S, most wouldn't know.

The W220 shed some 700 lbs off it's predecessor, the W140, and you could feel it in the car. I grew up with S class Mercedes since 1978. 280 se, a 350 SDL, a '95 S350 (very rare car). When the W220 hit, the "tank" feeling was gone. The car felt flimsy compared to the w140. 700 lb weight reduction is huge and you do feel it. I'm talking about the ride and the way the car felt. The w221 added the some 700 lbs of weight back into the car, and you feel it. A heavy vault on wheels, Bentley GT, same idea here. I have always said "nothing drives like an S". It's just a feeling I've grown to love. You can feel the weight of the car, in the steering, in the suspension, everywhere.

Now, I'm quite **** with cars, but I know people I could drive around in a town car, then a S550, and they wouldn't know the difference. This person is not me! I'm an enthusiast and disliked the w220 as soon as I drove it. I felt robbed of that Mercedes feeling I once grew up with. I can't change it, but wish I could. I jumped ship to a LS for the first and last time. You can read many people on the W140 forum stating that the w221 is the closest thing to that feeling, and of course the w222, which rides similar and still improving.

Below is something I'm pasting from an article that's interesting.

Lexus introduced a cheaper and more reliable product the Lexus LS400. Introduction of the LS 400 caused a lot of panic at MB Germany, they introduced cheaper plastics, electronics, and cut corners everywhere in an attempt to compete with Lexus. They then made the ill fated mistake of buying Chrysler, all in an attempt to get maximum efficiency from their production plants. Commercially, the W220 was more successful than W140. However, its downgraded reliability and build quality cost Mercedes heavily in reputation.

 

LOL. Please. You're not fooling anyone. You've baited my posts throughout this entire forum which is the ONLY reason so many topics have gone the way of spiraling. I quote you once, without intent to bait, and you still turn it into a flame fest.

Believe me, you not quoting my posts would make everybody happy around here, me most so. I'm happy not to quote yours. Currently our record of initiating a quote-fest with each other is: You- Infinite, Me: 1.

 

Who am I trying to fool? Everyone knows you're a troll. Again, why are you here? You hate Mercedes. You quote me, right, makes you a troll. How do you bait a post? Isn't that what you do with all the dumb things you post here, just to start an argument?

You not being here would make EVERYONE happy.

Again. What happened to you on GCF? Why were you banned?


M

 

I agree, somewhere around the w220 MB lost their way...Lexus LS430 was on top in the reviews then...S Class dead last. Then things switched for the 221 and the LS460.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...s-ls430-page-7

 

A lot of misinformation there. The W220 was not a response to Lexus. It was a response to a world that rejected the W140 because it was too big, too heavy, too thirsty and too expensive.

The W221 gained weight because it was far more advanced than the W220, not because Mercedes decided the car needed to be heavier. No car company does that, just "put weight back in" for the sake of doing so. All the new tech and the better build added weight. The W220 was a embarrassment, as were a lot of Mercedes' during that era. Had nothing to do with Lexus. It had to do with Jurgen Shremp and his "benz in every garage" vision which made every Mercedes of the era cheaper and more attainable. The 1998 ML350 was the same price of a loaded Explorer. Every Mercedes was cheaper from 1998 up until about 2006, with varying detail. Lexus didn't have that type of influence on Mercedes' whole lineup.

M

 

The W221 stomped the LS and the Lexus fanatics were just in tears. What I can't believe is that is still the same LS460 on sale today, right down to the engine and transmission. The next LS will have to be a miracle car to catch up now.


M

 

Thanks for the educated response in the posts above. Maybe you are right, but I still want to believe Lexus had some influence on that. I've read more than a few article about this theory, but yes, Mercedes made a mistake during that time. All I know is, the car didn't drive like it used to, and the w221/w222 has that tank, vault on wheels feeling that I have fallen in love with.

I remember reading this Time Magazine article. I can't find the whole thing, but here is a snippet.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/can-merc...tar-again.html - The German automaker is in the middle of a massive overhaul to restore the quality of its vehicles and reinvent itself

 

+1.
Adding weight does not improve comfort or ride, quite the opposite is true with modern engineering.
Best example is new Range Rover,weight reduced by 800lbs with ride and comfort incomparable to ANY other SUV on the market,competitive even with S-Class,Flying Spur and Ghost.

 

One of the reasons why I think car enthusiasts looking at magazine rankings is akin to listening to a politician and taking his/her word for everything, is because years later you can see which cars maintained relevancy, and they're usually not the winners. For example, the link above may have the W220 in last, and yes it probably deserved that as it was extremely compromised in build, however I remember based off of the styling and innovation alone at the time, it was so sought-after that even until 2008 it was my dream Sedan (when I bought one that year, and immediately sold it after realizing I got it out of my system and it wasn't worth the risk). Much of that has to do with the fact that anything called "Mercedes S Class" will always be sought after, no matter how it drives or looks, yes, but it's funny they rank the Jag XJ at #2. I have a hard time believing a Jag XJ is a better car to own today than a W220, I'm sure it even gives it a run for its money in regards to reliability.

Subjectively, I think the W220 and W211 after it are some of the most timeless modern mass-produced cars, period. And definitely 2 of the most timeless cars M-B has put out in modern times.

Further case in point, here's another big comparison test with all the "entry level" designations of big boy Sedans, where the W221 came in second to last, out of 7:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

 

Yeah Lexus wasn't the problem, it was the vision of the guy running the show at the time. He made every Mercedes cheaper and they cut back on their most extensive testing in the name of cost. Lexus caused Mercedes to step up their customer service practices and force them to offer warmer interiors.

M

 

Of course I'm not saying, throw a few bodies in the trunk and then that extra weight will help. Mercedes made the most drastic change they ever made with the W220. I'm summing this up, that Mercedes went off track, then got back on track and going back to their roots of solid vault handling and ride. In terms of comfort, refinement, quality, the the S is known to set this bar, but the 220 fell off this mark.

If you look just at handling by itself, BMW 7-series has a slight advantage. But combining handling and ride together, there aren't many cars that can rival the S. Even Bentley. This statement is even "truer" to the new S. Despite its size and weight, it can still feel surprisingly nimble to drive. It can attack corners with the composure of a much smaller car, especially if it has ABC. Only drove one with this, but turn-in becomes sharper and body roll becomes almost non existent.

What makes the w221 and w222 stand out, besides this remarkable handling? The incredibly superb ride comfort simultaneously. This "complete" feeling, of both handling and ride is what I'm talking about.

 

No one is arguing that for sure. A Mercedes S does drive exactly like you state no doubt. The W220 was pretty, but the build was a mess. I wish I could find a well cared for, late model W140 to put in the garage. They're near impossible to find now.

M

 

 

Germancar1. Spot on re. the Lexus.

That said, while many in the US liked the 140, that car was consider a dinosaur in Germany and the 220 was lauded as a truly modern car.

Specifically in the 220, MB tried out many new technologies especially on the electronics front and new, more environment-friendly paint processes which created significant quality problems.

It should still be said that despite all, the w220 was a huge success sales-wise.

 

 

 

Best looking S/CL coupe I have seen so far. Hard decision between this and the new GT AMG (except that interior sucks)

 

Where did they find this guy???

 

local crack house is my guess lol

 

 

Stunning looking car,can't wait to see the AMG version.
Still not a fan of the electronic movie screen replacing traditional gauges.
Nothing,no matter how well made,can replace them and it somehow takes away some of the experience and "feel" nice round gauges have.
Also,I am very disappointed the shifter is not on the console,geriatric steering column clicker the only thing available,makes the entire experience definitely less "sporty".

 

++1. IMHO its an element of craftsmanship lost. Other than that like you said a stunning car.

 

Craftsmanship lost? You mean the manual gauges versus screen or the shifter?

It's definitely a question of taste. I am inbetween; definitely like the screens better than the manual gauges, which in my view never looked particularly elegant or well made. As far back as the w126, they were screaming "plastic"
The lever on the other hand should be in the center console. Even the tiny lever on the SL is better than that. Looks proper, feels good (solid aluminum) than that little plastic stick...



something I like to put my hand in while driving
IMO is a question of taste and opinion what should The gauges/shifter are

 

I never found the gages in any of my Mercedes to look plasticy. Just businesslike which I something always liked about mercedes gages. No strange colors, shapes or graphics. The screen on the other hand is just that, a computer screen.

 

Seems like there's been a lot of back and forth about influences and what else it looks like. Personally, I think the car stands on it's own and I really don't care what others think or who influenced who as to how the design came to be. At the end of the day I thought it was a stunning car and that was that, so I ordered one.

It's not my first very nice car so I have a reasonable basis of comparison... and so far so good although I've only had it a short time. So far in terms of fit and finish it rivals my Continental GT. I'll report back as I have more seat time. More than happy to give feedback and answer questions if you want to hear from somebody that actually owns the car.