mrmiami

My point exactly! I think when Tesla grows as a brand they will hopefully create something that is comparable to a S Class, I don't doubt they will. The size of a Model S is more along the lines of an E Class, though the Tesla has two trunks lol.

WEBSRFR

Actually the Model S is larger than the S class width wise but the S class is 10" longer. They are both essentially the same weight so overall they are more or less in a similar weight and size class. The Model S offers a lot more useable space because there is no engine.

Pretty much all Tesla needs to do to compete better with the S class is to refine the interior. It's already compelling enough for some but I fully agree it does not approach the interior comfort and the level of luxury quite as much as an S550.I wish I could order the interior from Mercedes and the rest of the car from Tesla

Wolfman

No. It needs more than the interior. This is a 4 door hatchback akin the A7, not a sedan and the overall build quality isn't there either.

WEBSRFR

You would not have to stop at a campground but if you are driving 500 miles you would need to stop for about a 30-40 minutes at a supercharger and get something to eat while you get a free charge.

EVs are really at their infancy and the MS is not for everyone and clearly not for you based on your priorities. I'm not sure about the Model S being a beta program based on sales volume as if it is a beta program then so would be the S class because their sales numbers are similar. I follow the Tesla forums closely and the vast majority of people seem to be really having no significant issues with the car at all. Certainly no more than the odd thing or two you'd hear about on the W222 forum. In fact most of the present Tesla forum discussions are over extraneous topics and that's a good thing as it suggests the car is built properly.

As for the charging infrastructure I agree again with you. They still have some ways to go but by the middle of next year they will have super chargers covering the whole country and apart from that there are over 20,000 chargers across the US on Plugshare. I live in the DC area and drive out to Baltimore, Philly, NY, our Beach house in Rehoboth, the Shenandoah Mountains, and Asheville, NC. Everywhere else we fly and I've looked at the range and charging options with the Model S as it exists now and it is completely sufficient for all our driving needs. Someone who drives to way off long distance destinations often I can see having concerns about range but those issues should be addressed next year.

The bottom line is if you didn't connect with the car it is not the car for you and that's what's great about having so many choices so you can buy the best car based on your needs and priorities.

I'm curious, what options did you wish you got with your S class? Did you get the Driver Assistance Package? Other than AWD that's the one killer feature in the W222 that I will miss not having in the Model S. I bet the DAP would make those long drives you want to take that much easier. The demonstrations of it I have seen are phenomenal and really shows what Mercedes can accomplish with their R&D when they want to do something.

DaveVY

Regarding what options I wish we had gotten: power rear seats and surround view system. In some parking situations the surround view system would be nice and the nice rear seats would make travel nicer ... Though I might not see my bride as much as she loved the power rear seats and the comfort in a test drive vehicle we looked at.

We have the drivers assistance package and absolutely love it. It makes a significant difference in my frustration level in stop and go traffic and highway cruising is so much more relaxing. Can't imagine a car without it now.

Regarding the 500 mile trip - I considered that 1 hr stop to eat and recharge but saw the following limitations:
1) this assumed that there would be a restaurant that met our tastes and dietary restrictions within walking distance of the charging station, not good odds
2) at the end of the 500 mile trip I would need to have a charging station too and this would require that I pick lodging based on the car's needs and not my taste or wants

In 5-10 years when we are ready to swap the S for another car I hope that the infrastructure is built out enough that we can purchase a mercedes like interior with a long range EV power train. In the meantime our current EV infrastructure reminds me of the early days of gasoline stations when signs would warn us "last gas for 100 miles". Once recharging, and fast recharging is 1/8 as common as current gas stations are then true FREEDOM in long range EV travel will be possible. We have a ways to go, this is what I meant by "beta program", we are in the early days of decent EV vehicles, but infrastructure still needs to be built out. In addition we also need more competition for vehicles so that the different types of needs in vehicles can be addressed and competitive market forces will drive advancement in tech.

WEBSRFR

Glad to hear you are enjoying the Driver Assistance Package It's almost surreal seeing it in operation.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about there needing to be more competition in the EV arena and I wish more manufacturers would get in the game. Tesla is making a 28% per unit profit selling the model S so especially in the higher end where there is money to install a large ~ 85 kWh battery pack for high performance/long range EV cruising there is demand and money to be made.

Right now Tesla has the market to themselves as the Germans are busy building hybrids that apparently no one wants to buy based on the sales figures of the existing hybrid models. I also agree with you that in the next 5 years there will be significant advances made with EVs. It's only a matter of time until they are able to deliver a car with a 400-500 mile range.

K-A

Elon mentioned how surprised he is that EV's aren't catching on, considering how unanimously positive and successful the Model S has been, and how much progressive society defends and has adopted its vision for the future. I have a feeling his big surprise/"controversial" announcement coming will be licensing Tesla's patents for no charge. He seems more intent on jump-starting the EV revolution than he does focusing on Tesla to remain the one and only choice. His strategy says that if EV's are adopted faster, the technology and infrastructure will improve rapidly, and that he's not worried about Tesla remaining competitive as there will be a much larger pie to compete within, as well as his confidence that Tesla would remain at the top.

As he said, it's obvious EV's aren't being adopted by other car makers. Big Oil is one of the most powerful and richest industries, with cahoots into the automotive makers, dealer networks, govts, etc. Oil money also going straight into a select few in the Middle Easts pockets always baffles me as well as to why some Americans are so intent on clinging to it.

It takes someone with the ***** and vision to get the laggards to catch up to the vision of future, so it's not gonna be an overnight process, but the progress we've seen since the Model S came out was already breakthrough and extremely disruptive.

The automotive market is one of the slowest moving markets, certainly in part thanks to Big Oil. Compare it to technology companies, etc., which is what I think Tesla tries to consider itself more so than a car company. In time, it'll get there.

Germancar1

That could very well be. We all laughed when the Japanese and the Koreans started building luxury cars.

Are you serious man? I don't know where you gas your cars at, but the gas stations I use are clean and I rarely smell anything. You're being really ridiculous. Now all of a sudden getting gas is something repulsive? OMG. Whatever you need to tell yourself I guess. I'll take the gas station for 5 mins vs waiting a charging station for 30 or how ever long it takes. You're grasping at straws, you don't know what most Tesla owners do. Apparently remote charging is needed since Tesla is now looking for someone to share the cost of building a charging infrastructure.

Yet none of what you've stated is anything technically deficient, it is all goofy talk about nothing because you've read something about it. The overhangs are not an issue on this car and it is gorgeous on the road, only you have a problem with it. Tell me the technical reason why the proportions needs to change every single time if they're already perfect and NO BUYERS are complaining about space or room?? Tell me where the S-Class is flexing at and how that stiffness rating applies. You can't. Like I said before you're gullible and because you read something about stiffness (a number) and the S doesn't blow that number away, you think there is a problem. Yet again, the car is as solid as can be. Don't you see how ridiculous you're being here? You don't even know what you're talking about. Now you want it to be ahead of cars coming out years after it. That is the most ridiculous thing you've said here. No car does that. NONE. Technology moves and what is new today is old tomorrow, you know this. Now you want the S-Class to surpass a future BMW even though BMW, Lexus and Audi can now all purchase a W222 take it apart and better it? That is so far out there it is beyond just ridiculous.

BMW is not AHEAD OF THEM. THE CAR IS NOT OUT YET. Are you just pretending not to understand that simple FACT? All you have is speculation. This is why you're on so many ignore lists. You say the stupidest things. BMW is ahead based on speculation about a car that isn't out yet!!!?!?!?

You're a clueless hater nothing more. Expecting a S-Class to be ahead of cars that are still being developed. That is retarded lol.

This class has already been about leapfrog. Mercedes sets the bar and the others catch up and then Mercedes resets it again. The W222 has done just that. It basically obsoletes the class, all except the A8 which is still one of the best cars on the road.


A car that looks goofy as hell in Li trim? Right. CF is not in any BMW 7-Series that you can buy TODAY. You are really off base here to proclaim some type of advantage for a car that isn't even on sale or even shown yet. Talk about desperation and reaching.

Right. Neither does the BMW 7-Series that you can buy TODAY.


A bunch of nothing.

NO they weren't. Why don't you read up on the technology before you post. You're just flat wrong here. What cars has MBC in the 80's and 90's that actually worked as advertised?

So again, what you going on about? You don't know what the next 7 will do until it hits the showroom floor. Nothing but your clueless opinion.

By the same token you don't know what else Mercedes is going to do come facelift time for the S-Class either.

You don't know what you're talking about as usual.

M

WEBSRFR

Normally I would care about this but I find the all electric high performance drivetrain so good that I am okay with the Model S as it is designed. The sales numbers of the Model S suggests it's also good enough for a whole bunch of other people as well.

If I had to choose between a high performance and long range all-electric S class or a Model S, I would of course pick the S Class as I prefer the styling of a standard sedan but since the Model S is the only game in town and no one has a remotely competitive high performance and long range EV available to buy, there's really nothing else for me to consider.

I have a feeling the upcoming S class hybrid will have similar sales numbers to Mercedes' other hybrids. Mercedes seems to think EV technology is all about increasing the fuel economy of their gasoline cars but I consider EV technology being all about offering a much smoother and high performance driving experience compared to what's available with gasoline powered cars.

Could you clarify what you mean about the build quality? I understand the Model S lacks the interior luxury and accoutrements of an S class but I was perfectly happy with the build quality of the mid 2014 build Model S I test drove recently. I do understand they had some issues with the 2012/2013 early builds but they have worked out those issues. The Tesla is no poorly built mashed together Cadillac rattle trap. From what I can tell it is a solidly built vehicle and so far it has received the highest crash test ratings of any production car and safety is my #1 criteria for actual build quality.

Wolfman

WEBSRFR, in how many countless ways do you want to tell everyone here that you love the Model S for its drive train.
That's great and few will dispute many of the cars benefits.

I simply take issue with you comparing it to the S-Class and your reasoning. They are not comparable IMO but that doesn't lessen the Tesla in any way.

Sales figures mean nothing to me as I compare the Model S to an E/CLS class, not the S. Better match.
It doesn't match the interior, as everyone has stated Ad nauseam.
Build quality relates to things like sheet metal fit and finish, tightness and evenness of gaps, fit of doors and latches, paint quality, metal flex, quality of all materials used.
My experience on the Model S' I drove were somewhere between C-E Class level. Better than the interior but not by much.

NHTSA doesn't test luxury cars like the S-Class, A8, etc. so the Tesla tests great against other cars. Glad it's a safe car even though the NHTSA refuted Tesla's score claims.
Some argue the lack of active accident avoidance systems make it less safe...

K-A

Oh, c'mon, acting as if M-B's new flagship is the end-all/be-all on a modified 9 year old chassis, 9 year old proportions, decade old POS transmission. Best car in class? Yes, but ahead of the curve enough? I don't think so. Like I said, it's been a hype-fest in the same way you criticize the Model S being, difference is, the Model S actually brought true innovation, while the W222 has relied more-so on marketed-innovation. The Magic Body Control also doesn't work as advertised, as people thought that it would scan the road and alter the ride at ALL speeds and surfaces, not just at parking lot speeds over perfectly man made speed bumps.

The W222 isn't as "solid as can be", it's high up there, but the chassis isn't even as stiff as a 6 Series.

And Mercedes doesn't set the bar, that's the whole point. BMW sets the bar these days and Mercedes follows, BMW has done just about everything on their modern cars before M-B did, whether stylistically, engineering or technologically. Now Tesla set the bar in a whole new way, for everyone else to catch up to.

As for looks, sorry, but it isn't so flawless that the proportions couldn't be improved. The overhangs are quite large, the wheelbase doesn't extend far enough out to the edges to give the stance a truly sprawled-out modern look. The design has been criticized by many outside of Mercedes forums for being quite mundane, it was even a ding on the test against the Model S where the reviewer said it didn't really have such a presence, unlike the Model S. I think the W222 can look great at some angles, but the architecture suffers and the lines are a little unrefined at parts, and its presence isn't quite commanding, aside from the massive grille which is an easy/amateur way to command attention. Once the identical W205 comes out, the W222 won't be noticed at all I don't think, save for the differentiated front.

The 7 Series indeed isn't out yet, but my point is that it appears it will be SO ahead of the W222 in so many ways, that it was a missed opportunity for Mercedes. While Mercedes "innovates" in purple LED lighting and perfume dispensers, BMW is going forward with extensive CF in the chassis (i.e a from-scratch chassis), revolutionizing infotainment and screen-displays AGAIN (of which like always, Mercedes will copy them in the next S with dual-screens, just watch) and I'm sure even you can believe how much vastly superior a CF-using, all-new BMW drivetrain bearing 7 Series will drive than the W222 which basically drives like a further-honed-in W221.

WEBSRFR

Tesla just opened sourced all their EV patents so hopefully this makes it more likely that I will be able to buy a bad *** all electric AMG Mercedes sooner rather than later

It seems almost unprecedented for a company to do this but I think this is good for the auto industry and high performance vehicles in general.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-...are-belong-you

K-A

Elon is such a G. Closest thing to Steve Jobs-esque in disruptive and ingenious style.

I can't help but hate that Tesla did that for their sake, I'm a believer in patents being honored due to how incredibly difficult it is to get to the point where you have a patent to even file. But what he did is gonna be the biggest game changer to this movement that we've seen yet.

"Follow the leader".

Wolfman

Mercedes had access to Tesla tech and patents already. No news here...

K-A

So Mercedes had access but still fell so far behind the impending (obvious) future revolution being EV's, not to mention threw jealous shade at Tesla when the MBUSA CEO so transparently showed his threatened-card (and he sure got criticized by people for that). They need some new blood in the Executive pool.

TangoRed

Meh. Tesla knows that if someone actually utilizes the patents made available they're going to eventually need to use the supercharger system Tesla is setting up. And guess what? Your car has to be authorized by Tesla in order to use the supercharger system. Tesla hasn't said a damn thing about offering THAT for free.

Also, with the continued investment in hydrogen I truly wonder where the major automakers are really placing their bets.

megaoctane

Tesla's plan to share its tech is bold, exciting, and a sign of weakness

The Verge

DaveVY

We love our 14 S, but I still closely follow Tesla as I do believe they are on to something but IMO it needs more work primarily in the infrastructure before we have true driving freedom in a long range EV vehicle.

In the most recent investor meeting I recall Elon mentioning that he was open to other car manufacturers using the super chargers... For a fee.

Reading between the lines of his comments and also this news of open sourcing the patents - Tesla realizes that this EV market cannot be mainstream UNLESS other major players jump in and start to help build out the infrastructure and create more competitive products and creative solutions.

If other players don't jump into the market this EV market will remain a niche market or will take decades to become established. Because Elon wants to change the world and do it soon, he knows he needs help to do that, hence the opening up of the patents.

WEBSRFR

Ah, are you talking about the hydrogen "Fool Cells?" They've been talking about those for 10+ years. If you think building out EV infrastructure is hard when there is electricity all over the place, try building out all the hydrogen distribution infrastructure that requires you to ship around this stuff all over the place. It will not happen. The only reason EVs are viable as an alternative to a gasoline car for me is because Tesla built out the charging infrastructure on their own. Is Toyota going to roll out Hydrogen filling stations and hydrogen tankers to fill them? I don't think so.

Manufacturers are free to use whatever patents Tesla has and as is the case with Nissan they are free to build out their own charging solutions.

And Super Chargers are not "free" per se by the way. If you buy an S60, you have to pay $2,000 for free unlimited access to superchargers. If you by an S85 or P85, Supercharging is included but that extra cost is built into them. Tesla can afford to do this because electricity is so cheap.

And who said anything about giving away power for free? Even Tesla customers pay for it one way or the other and it is only reasonable others pay for the power they need and this is completely unrelated to the patents. No other EV makers gives away power for free -- patents or no patents.

The benefit for other automakers is that they can buy into the supercharger infrastructure without having to build it out themselves. This helps fund more superchargers and more charging options in general for all EVs.

If I were to buy a Mercedes S class EV, I'd gladly pay the $2,000 or whatever fee to access superchargers for the life of the car. The cost is a non issue and in fact is needed to make the supercharges more ubiquitous.

Overall this is not giving anything away for free but a pragmatic approach to advance the technology without wasting time with lawyers bickering all over the place and distracting management. All Tesla is saying is they have developed a bunch of technologies and patents for building a high performance/long range EV and that any other automaker is free to use them to build a similar vehicle to compete with Tesla. It's a good and healthy approach for the industry.

RobbieRob

Damn Dude, all these pages of unrelated nonsense because you were going to pick up your new C63 and had to take a pic of the S63...lol. I don't know if anyone said this, but congrats on the new hot rod, that thing is Bada** also..

hyperion667

Corey140

Is the S63 in short demand?

I've been following the 14 and 15 S63 on Autotrader and most of the used S63 are going for more than the new '14 and '15. 5 used vs 80-85 new cars so why would anyone pay 20-40k over MSRP?

MTrauman

Some of this might be due to the cars being sold as exports from the US to foreign countries.


This is a huge business since there is tremendous arbitrage that goes on between the prices in the US and other countries. I do not know the exact numbers but an S550 might be double the price in China compared to the US price. A person buying a new S class at a US dealer is not supposed to export the car. So a second buyer will buy the car on the "used" market and export to a foreign country to make a nice profit. In fact, in the past, I remember signing forms (maybe 15 years ago) that I would not export my MB in the next 12 months after purchase.

K-A

Exactly.

I think Elon knows exactly what he's doing. And I think that anyone who bets against him will be left sucking exhaust fumes (pun intended) just as they have been so far.

Germancar1

Again, can you tell me what the problems are with the actual car? Are you and engineer or just a clueless hater? Tell me what would be the technical reasoning for changing something that is seemingly perfect, i.e the size of the car? Do you know for a fact that it is the same chassis and if so, where is the chassis deficient at? Please due tell, because the press and buyers seem to think that the S is the best thing going. Due tell us why this car needed updates in places that it wasn't lacking in before?

POS transmission? Why because it doesn't shift like the ZF gearbox? Or because it had problems over the production run? You do know that thousands of S-Class owners have not had problems with the 7G right? You do realize that Mercedes has been rated higher in reliability than either Audi or BMW and that this wouldn't be the case if every 7G owner was having problems. Again, you don't know what you're talking about and/or you're hyping something up to the post of looking foolish. There is certainly nothing about an S-Class that is a POS and you know it. Just plain stupid talk.

Again based on what a drive system? MBC DOES WORK AS ADVERTISED. ASK THE OWNERS HERE. Honest question, are you slow? You're saying that because of what people thought (uneducated about the system), and what it actually doesn't don't line up, there is a problem? OMG Man are you serious? That is the person who didn't even take the time to find out what it was about, fault. NOT Mercedes. It was clearly explained from the jump.

Bull****. I own one and have been in the other. My 6-Series is not as stiff as an S-Class. You're just flat wrong here. Period. You don't know what you're talking about.

Wrong, and wrong again. For the type of car Mercedes' S-Class is it most definitely sets the bar. Tesla went in another direction with a novel drive system, but the rest of the car is lacking. Sorely lacking. It isn't a proven item yet.

You're clueless if you think BMW has done "everything" on the modern car before Mercedes did. I see the strategy now, when Tesla can't be your focus, you jump to BMW in the dark to make a ridiculous comment about nothing. Got it.

Big question here, who said that Mercedes' S-Class and the Tesla model S are competitors? Where was this written?

.

IN your opinion. Nothing more.

Really, would love to read about this criticism of the S-Class' design. Nothing I've seen supports this so I would like you to provide proof of that the S-Class design is lacking. Now you do realize that people who are actually buying the S in big numbers disagree with this BS? Love it how sales figures mean the world for Tesla but nothing for the S-Class. All you have is talk here, the market says otherwise.

You mean like BMWs and Audis all look alike throughout their ranges? Get outta here, you kidding.



Exactly, nothing but talk. A whole lot of hype and nonsense. You have no point until the car arrives and you know it. Likewise what does the S have in store for the facelift. See how sill that sounds not knowing anything about it?

A lot nothing again. Ipad in the dash, wow innovation for sure. The W222 is supposed to drive like a better W221 that is what the S-Class is. You would have Mercedes change directions to ride harder like the 7-Series and turn buyers off so it sounds better to non buyers like yourself. Yet you keep talking about a 7-Series that isn't even out yet. I can't tell you how ridiculous and off-base your ramblings are, they make NO sense at all. None.

M