S63 AMG Bad A....
05-14-2014, 11:01 PM
#176
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is what it comes down to. After driving the BMW i3, then the Model S (and I only drove the 60kw!) there's no looking back. I feel like EV's even in such an early stage have already largely surpassed ICE cars, range and convenience of charge being the only setbacks, as well as obvious price premium on the drivetrain itself. In fact, I feel like when I smell that gas pollution in the air, or pump gas in my car, breathing in those "lovely" fumes, I'm like a page in a not-so-distant history book where people will laugh about how "ancient" I am.
Funny thing is, as we have things like "auto start/stop" these days and engines keep getting so quiet that the best compliment toward them is "It sounds like an Electric Car!" or that the torque curve on an ICE motor is so good that it "Feels like an Electric Car!" it already tells you that ICE's are becoming compromises, very quickly. If my engine is gonna keep shutting off and shutting on during my commutes, then you know what, it's obvious that it's a DATED CONCEPT, and it's time to move forward, which is motors that don't ever need to be "off or on", they're just constant (as long as they have a charge).
And
on your last line. I always say a similar thing if I'm at least toward the end of a lease on a car.
Funny thing is, as we have things like "auto start/stop" these days and engines keep getting so quiet that the best compliment toward them is "It sounds like an Electric Car!" or that the torque curve on an ICE motor is so good that it "Feels like an Electric Car!" it already tells you that ICE's are becoming compromises, very quickly. If my engine is gonna keep shutting off and shutting on during my commutes, then you know what, it's obvious that it's a DATED CONCEPT, and it's time to move forward, which is motors that don't ever need to be "off or on", they're just constant (as long as they have a charge).
And
on your last line. I always say a similar thing if I'm at least toward the end of a lease on a car.Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Last edited by Mike5215; 05-14-2014 at 11:22 PM.
05-15-2014, 12:36 AM
#177
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,056
Received 3,241 Likes
on
2,018 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
The Tesla is cool because it flipped the whole car building equation on its head, then took total advantage of the new paradigm. To get a 4500lb S Class with a V8 big enough to push it around feel civilized, Mercedes has become an expert at insulation and dampening, and sparing the occupants any interaction with all of the mechanical thrashing going on around them. They do it better than almost anyone.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Not S-Class level. The price matches due to the Tesla's high price. That's it.
This is a 4 door hatchback, so I would look at the A7 or CLS.
Tesla's sandwich design is nothing new nor have they invented the concept. It's been pioneered and patented by Mercedes and manufactured since 1997 in the A-Class.
So I guess if Mercedes wanted to use their own design for the S-Class, they could have done it.
Your conclusions make no sense unless you speak for yourself.
Also be so kind and not quote K-A in your posts. He is on many ignore lists (including mine) and I rather not read his ramblings. Thanks
Last edited by Wolfman; 05-15-2014 at 12:39 AM.
05-15-2014, 02:04 AM
#178
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
Received 290 Likes
on
203 Posts
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
The Tesla is cool because it flipped the whole car building equation on its head, then took total advantage of the new paradigm. To get a 4500lb S Class with a V8 big enough to push it around feel civilized, Mercedes has become an expert at insulation and dampening, and sparing the occupants any interaction with all of the mechanical thrashing going on around them. They do it better than almost anyone.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Do you have any factual data to support any of those ridiculous claims? How do you know what the center of gravity is for the S-Class? Outside of it's novel, but limited drive system, the Tesla is a disaster once you get past the big screen. The interior is a poor fitting, cheap looking mess. The car is very noisy and doesn't ride anything like a Mercedes. Yes I've been in one. It is easy not to have "technical hurdles" when you aren't building a traditional car. You act like they built an electric S-Class and nothing could be further from the truth. They didn't have to shield the people riding in the car from anything, but they did have to add a shield to keep the batteries from catching fire from road debris. Some engineering.
M
05-15-2014, 06:00 AM
#179
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
18 Posts
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
The Tesla is cool because it flipped the whole car building equation on its head, then took total advantage of the new paradigm. To get a 4500lb S Class with a V8 big enough to push it around feel civilized, Mercedes has become an expert at insulation and dampening, and sparing the occupants any interaction with all of the mechanical thrashing going on around them. They do it better than almost anyone.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
Tesla starts with drive unit that has almost no moving parts and is dead quiet. They don't have to figure out how to shield the occupants from anything. So an issue that MB spent 128 years constantly toiling over and perfecting a solution to suddenly isn't an issue anymore.
The Mercedes is heavy with a relatively high center of gravity. To get the car to handle well, Mercedes developed a complex suspension that senses pitch and roll and yaw and uses a network of sensors and microprocessors to monitor and compensate. Again, a complex solution that adds weight and cost.
The Tesla's as heavy as the S 550 but the heaviest part is the battery pack, which they sandwich into the car's floor, resulting in the lowest possible center of gravity. That translated into good handling with very little additional effort.
So in one fell swoop Tesla produces a car that rides very well like the Mercedes, handles very well and is quiet like a Mercedes, not by overcoming the same technical hurdles in a better way, but by eliminating the hurdles in the first place.
This is what pisses off Mercedes owners about comparisons to the Tesla. Mercedes had to earn its best attributes through decades of hard work and innovation. Tesla just showed up. Then, to add insult to injury they showed up with AMG level power and performance.
And let's not get into the sensationalist fire stuff. I've read quite a few stories just this year on MB's burning after getting into an accident, some where occupants died. Enough so to where I started to think that maybe Mercedes has a fire problem which the media will never report, but Tesla being the new hot thing will get hyperbole and sensationalism off of any little misstep. Much like Apple.
At least with Tesla the fires happened because cars ran over something (and this was immediately "corrected"), a brand-new W222 spontaneously combusted already, for no reason at all. I'd say lack of fires are not Mercedes' strong suit as well.
Or how about the issues with W211's that had gas leaking into the bottom of the rear seat cushions? This was a big issue that got sent to the NHTSA as a proposed suit by many owners.
05-15-2014, 06:35 AM
#180
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
18 Posts
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Here's an interesting article where Steve Cannon (MBUSA CEO) makes the mistake of sounding like an out-of-touch/stuck in his ways Steve Balmer after Steve Jobs unveiled the iPod, iPhone, then iPad's, by way of passive aggressively dissing Tesla (and sounding more threatened than anything).
I'm sure Musk would've set him straight as he tends to be on the offensive quite often, but the politics between a representative from a large shareholder of his company throwing his company jabs must be an odd dynamic.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahel...rtner=yahootix
Here are just some of the first comments that show up:
Ravindra Gade:
He can’t be serious! Mercedes’ answer to Tesla is car that runs 20 miles on electric power! There are already a dozen cars are available that do this including golf carts. Why are all these auto execs behaving like ostriches!!!
Rahul Sonnad:
Really? Limited Potential for the rest of Steve Cannon’s life? Unless there is some illness he’s not disclosing, that just doesn’t make sense. Pure Electric has gone from nothing to outselling Mercedes in the luxury segment in 2 years. Is Mercedes going to beat Tesla on pure electric. I doubt it. What’s the obstacle to scaling things out on the charging front or on the Service front? What examples of past Tesla failure let him project this out?
This sounds like a desperate marketing pitch from a marketing guy turned CEO that despite the fact that Mercedes owns a big chunk of Tesla and there are so many reasons why all electric is better, is just defensively hiding behind spin instead if truly innovating on top of the battery platform that could make mercedes really environmentally friendly and a much better car and car company.
I would have hoped for better from Mercedes USA’s CEO.
Tatnuck Tatnuck
As a former Mercedes owner, I understand why Steve Cannon thinks it is necessary for all car manufacturers to have huge service networks. Tesla is a game-changer in many ways, not needing a lot of maintenance is one of them. Mercedes and GM remind me of Motorola and Ericsson and their cell phones just before the iPhone.
Sam Miller
Mercedes is about to discover that EVs require precious little maintenance, so that dealer network isn’t nearly so necessary as it would be for those pretentious suckers who own, you know, a Mercedes.
…And EVs will mainly be “re-fueled” at home, for around $5/tank. (Yup, electricity is a heck of a lot cheaper than gas, per mile driven)
I'm sure Musk would've set him straight as he tends to be on the offensive quite often, but the politics between a representative from a large shareholder of his company throwing his company jabs must be an odd dynamic.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahel...rtner=yahootix
Here are just some of the first comments that show up:
Ravindra Gade:
He can’t be serious! Mercedes’ answer to Tesla is car that runs 20 miles on electric power! There are already a dozen cars are available that do this including golf carts. Why are all these auto execs behaving like ostriches!!!
Rahul Sonnad:
Really? Limited Potential for the rest of Steve Cannon’s life? Unless there is some illness he’s not disclosing, that just doesn’t make sense. Pure Electric has gone from nothing to outselling Mercedes in the luxury segment in 2 years. Is Mercedes going to beat Tesla on pure electric. I doubt it. What’s the obstacle to scaling things out on the charging front or on the Service front? What examples of past Tesla failure let him project this out?
This sounds like a desperate marketing pitch from a marketing guy turned CEO that despite the fact that Mercedes owns a big chunk of Tesla and there are so many reasons why all electric is better, is just defensively hiding behind spin instead if truly innovating on top of the battery platform that could make mercedes really environmentally friendly and a much better car and car company.
I would have hoped for better from Mercedes USA’s CEO.
Tatnuck Tatnuck
As a former Mercedes owner, I understand why Steve Cannon thinks it is necessary for all car manufacturers to have huge service networks. Tesla is a game-changer in many ways, not needing a lot of maintenance is one of them. Mercedes and GM remind me of Motorola and Ericsson and their cell phones just before the iPhone.
Sam Miller
Mercedes is about to discover that EVs require precious little maintenance, so that dealer network isn’t nearly so necessary as it would be for those pretentious suckers who own, you know, a Mercedes.
…And EVs will mainly be “re-fueled” at home, for around $5/tank. (Yup, electricity is a heck of a lot cheaper than gas, per mile driven)
05-15-2014, 09:00 AM
#181
MBWorld Fanatic!
Do you have any factual data to support any of those ridiculous claims? How do you know what the center of gravity is for the S-Class? Outside of it's novel, but limited drive system, the Tesla is a disaster once you get past the big screen. The interior is a poor fitting, cheap looking mess. The car is very noisy and doesn't ride anything like a Mercedes. Yes I've been in one. It is easy not to have "technical hurdles" when you aren't building a traditional car. You act like they built an electric S-Class and nothing could be further from the truth. They didn't have to shield the people riding in the car from anything, but they did have to add a shield to keep the batteries from catching fire from road debris. Some engineering.
M
M
I'm not suggesting Tesla built an electric S Class. I'm pointing out that the reason for the comparison with the S Class is that many of the hallmarks that make the big Benz special...being powerful, ultra quiet, having a great ride..can be found in the Tesla. My point is exactly your point:
"It is easy not to have "technical hurdles" when you aren't building a traditional car."
You seem to think that's slam against Tesla, but maybe it's a slam against Mercedes for only building traditional cars.
I'm also on the record here lamenting the cheap interior materials and overpowering infotainment screen, and the obvious limitations of EV power in general.
With respect to a quiet ride, obviously if you build your car around a mechanical device, like a powerful internal combustion engine that is by its nature loud, and you don't want your vehicle's occupants to hear it, you have to insulate and shield them physically and acoustically . If you think about an ICE, it makes power using thousands of tiny contained explosions. It shakes around. It gets hot. It emits a poisonous vapor. It's a fairly hostile piece of machinery that has to be corralled and managed.
Last edited by Mike5215; 05-15-2014 at 11:21 AM.
05-15-2014, 09:16 AM
#182
MBWorld Fanatic!
Maybe I am the only one but I wouldn't compare the Tesla to the S-Class. Different car, different objective, different customer.
Not S-Class level. The price matches due to the Tesla's high price. That's it.
This is a 4 door hatchback, so I would look at the A7 or CLS.
Tesla's sandwich design is nothing new nor have they invented the concept. It's been pioneered and patented by Mercedes and manufactured since 1997 in the A-Class.
So I guess if Mercedes wanted to use their own design for the S-Class, they could have done it.
Your conclusions make no sense unless you speak for yourself.
Also be so kind and not quote K-A in your posts. He is on many ignore lists (including mine) and I rather not read his ramblings. Thanks
Not S-Class level. The price matches due to the Tesla's high price. That's it.
This is a 4 door hatchback, so I would look at the A7 or CLS.
Tesla's sandwich design is nothing new nor have they invented the concept. It's been pioneered and patented by Mercedes and manufactured since 1997 in the A-Class.
So I guess if Mercedes wanted to use their own design for the S-Class, they could have done it.
Your conclusions make no sense unless you speak for yourself.
Also be so kind and not quote K-A in your posts. He is on many ignore lists (including mine) and I rather not read his ramblings. Thanks
Again, I'm not suggesting that Tesla built a full size German luxury sedan. Not even Tesla thinks they built an S Class. My point was that they did build a quiet, powerful, nice-riding car, and those three characteristics are major parts of the S Class' appeal.
Last edited by Mike5215; 05-15-2014 at 10:24 AM.
05-15-2014, 01:08 PM
#183
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hey Mike, I appreciate your response. Though we can disagree on certain viewpoints and opinions, I can tell that you are a decent person because you can agree to disagree respectfully and comprehend a different perspective. Thank you for that, especially in consideration of some of the the recent "outbursts..."
As for how I feel about the Model S, you pretty much nailed it. After what I experienced with the P85, it is inconceivable for me to buy another gasoline car. And you are right about loving it, warts and all. After the immense amount of research I've done, I understand fully the strengths and the weaknesses of a premium EV platform and I'm so thrilled with the benefits that I am willing to make some adjustments to accommodate the few warts
For me, the P85 is the only car that brought back the same magic as driving for the very first time when I was 16. There's something visceral about zero noise, zero vibration, and maximum torque anytime...
As for how I feel about the Model S, you pretty much nailed it. After what I experienced with the P85, it is inconceivable for me to buy another gasoline car. And you are right about loving it, warts and all. After the immense amount of research I've done, I understand fully the strengths and the weaknesses of a premium EV platform and I'm so thrilled with the benefits that I am willing to make some adjustments to accommodate the few warts
For me, the P85 is the only car that brought back the same magic as driving for the very first time when I was 16. There's something visceral about zero noise, zero vibration, and maximum torque anytime...It's off topic but it's been a respectful and balanced discussion. If I'm reading between the lines correctly I'd say this gentleman's brief spin behind the wheel of the Tesla with its effortless, silent 3.9 second 0-60 pull is really what this all boils down to. Once that kind of thing gets under your skin it's hard to forget, and it's really hard to enjoy your current car. It's like banging a super hot stripper and then having to go back to having sex with your wife.
I can be cool and detached because I've never driven one, but I'm afraid if I did I'd also have a raging case of Tesla Fever.
I think he's headed toward a Tesla S and I think he'll absolutely love it, warts and all. It's rare to find a car you really love. I like my S Class a lot, but if I walked outside and saw it crushed by a tree my first thought would be "I hope I didn't leave my phone in there."
I can be cool and detached because I've never driven one, but I'm afraid if I did I'd also have a raging case of Tesla Fever.
I think he's headed toward a Tesla S and I think he'll absolutely love it, warts and all. It's rare to find a car you really love. I like my S Class a lot, but if I walked outside and saw it crushed by a tree my first thought would be "I hope I didn't leave my phone in there."
05-15-2014, 01:36 PM
#184
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hey Mike, I appreciate your response. Though we can disagree on certain viewpoints and opinions, I can tell that you are a decent person because you can agree to disagree respectfully and comprehend a different perspective. Thank you for that, especially in consideration of some of the the recent "outbursts..."
As for how I feel about the Model S, you pretty much nailed it. After what I experienced with the P85, it is inconceivable for me to buy another gasoline car. And you are right about loving it, warts and all. After the immense amount of research I've done, I understand fully the strengths and the weaknesses of a premium EV platform and I'm so thrilled with the benefits that I am willing to make some adjustments to accommodate the few warts For me, the P85 is the only car that brought back the same magic as driving for the very first time when I was 16. There's something visceral about zero noise, zero vibration, and maximum torque anytime...
As for how I feel about the Model S, you pretty much nailed it. After what I experienced with the P85, it is inconceivable for me to buy another gasoline car. And you are right about loving it, warts and all. After the immense amount of research I've done, I understand fully the strengths and the weaknesses of a premium EV platform and I'm so thrilled with the benefits that I am willing to make some adjustments to accommodate the few warts
For me, the P85 is the only car that brought back the same magic as driving for the very first time when I was 16. There's something visceral about zero noise, zero vibration, and maximum torque anytime...I realize a gas guzzling 400hp American V8 is a long way from a zero emission pure EV but it sounds to me like they both activate the exact same pleasure centers in the male brain.
I actually spent some time this morning playing with Tesla configurations, and the next time I'm in Orlando or Tampa I'm going to find an excuse to test drive one.
05-15-2014, 01:56 PM
#185
MBWorld Fanatic!
That magic is the key. It's hard to find, but I recall a test drive I took in a 2005 Pontiac GTO. I wasn't really looking for car (still had several months to go on my existing car's lease). I just wanted to drive it because it was a RWD V8 with a stick and I thought it would be fun. From the moment I dumped the clutch and felt 400hp and 400ft/lb of torque I was cooked. I bought it then and there, left my current car in the dealership's parking lot and drove it home.
I realize a gas guzzling 400hp American V8 is a long way from a zero emission pure EV but it sounds to me like they both activate the exact same pleasure centers in the male brain.
I actually spent some time this morning playing with Tesla configurations, and the next time I'm in Orlando or Tampa I'm going to find an excuse to test drive one.
I realize a gas guzzling 400hp American V8 is a long way from a zero emission pure EV but it sounds to me like they both activate the exact same pleasure centers in the male brain.
I actually spent some time this morning playing with Tesla configurations, and the next time I'm in Orlando or Tampa I'm going to find an excuse to test drive one.
When you test drive a Model S, my only recommendation is to test drive a P85 and not the S85 or S60. If you ever test drive an S63 and a P85, let us know what you feel about the experience. Their 0-60 times are close and I wonder how the driving characteristics compare.
05-15-2014, 04:51 PM
#186
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,056
Received 3,241 Likes
on
2,018 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Yes, I'm sometimes amused when people think that EVs are for environmentalists, tree hugers or some other stereotyped segment of the population. Though I care about the environment, I drive a V8 E550 that barely yields 15 mpg so at the end of the day what I care about is the driving experience. Regardless of the drivetrain, apparently my brain is wired to derive pleasure from a rapidly ascending smooth torque curve
When you test drive a Model S, my only recommendation is to test drive a P85 and not the S85 or S60. If you ever test drive an S63 and a P85, let us know what you feel about the experience. Their 0-60 times are close and I wonder how the driving characteristics compare.
When you test drive a Model S, my only recommendation is to test drive a P85 and not the S85 or S60. If you ever test drive an S63 and a P85, let us know what you feel about the experience. Their 0-60 times are close and I wonder how the driving characteristics compare.
05-15-2014, 05:33 PM
#187
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yes, I'm sometimes amused when people think that EVs are for environmentalists, tree hugers or some other stereotyped segment of the population. Though I care about the environment, I drive a V8 E550 that barely yields 15 mpg so at the end of the day what I care about is the driving experience. Regardless of the drivetrain, apparently my brain is wired to derive pleasure from a rapidly ascending smooth torque curve
When you test drive a Model S, my only recommendation is to test drive a P85 and not the S85 or S60. If you ever test drive an S63 and a P85, let us know what you feel about the experience. Their 0-60 times are close and I wonder how the driving characteristics compare.
When you test drive a Model S, my only recommendation is to test drive a P85 and not the S85 or S60. If you ever test drive an S63 and a P85, let us know what you feel about the experience. Their 0-60 times are close and I wonder how the driving characteristics compare.
05-15-2014, 06:52 PM
#188
MBWorld Fanatic!
They are not cheap
Once you option them out they are in S-class territory very quickly, price wise. I still think the P85 is a great value for the performance you get. You almost get AMG level performance for the cost of a base S550.The S85 is less but based on what I hear the "passing acceleration" times are only a fraction slower than the P85. Since there is no transmission, when you floor it from regular driving speeds, you get instant acceleration with maximum torque until you are done passing whatever it is you want to pass.
05-15-2014, 07:06 PM
#189
MBWorld Fanatic!
Okay so Mercedes DOES have a premium EV...
It pretty much has the same performance characteristics as a Model S P85. The Mercedes SLS Electric Drive reaches 60 in 3.9 seconds while the Model S P85 takes 4.2 seconds.
The Mercedes EV has AWD, which the Model S lacks at the moment, as well as 740bhp, 738lb ft torque (wonder how that feels like!) and a max speed of 155mph. I am really glad they are working with EV technology so hopefully before long they will offer an all electric high performance S class.
The things that don't help the SLS Electric Drive is that its range is about 100 miles less than the Model S, it can only take 2 people as opposed to 5+2 with the Model S, and at €416,500 it is 4-5X more than the cost of a Model S. If they can get the cost down and integrate the EV technology with a larger more practical vehicle while retaining some of that performance, we'd have a tremendous product.
"Guess what's the most powerful AMG on sale? We bet you'll plump for the SLS Black, but you'd be wrong. It's this SLS Electric Drive, with 740bhp and 738lb ft. That's an enormous 118bhp and 270lb ft more than the Black - hardly a slouch when it comes to bare stats. And yet it produces precisely no local CO2 emissions."
http://www.topgear.com/uk/mercedes-b...c-drive-drivenIt pretty much has the same performance characteristics as a Model S P85. The Mercedes SLS Electric Drive reaches 60 in 3.9 seconds while the Model S P85 takes 4.2 seconds.
The Mercedes EV has AWD, which the Model S lacks at the moment, as well as 740bhp, 738lb ft torque (wonder how that feels like!) and a max speed of 155mph. I am really glad they are working with EV technology so hopefully before long they will offer an all electric high performance S class.
The things that don't help the SLS Electric Drive is that its range is about 100 miles less than the Model S, it can only take 2 people as opposed to 5+2 with the Model S, and at €416,500 it is 4-5X more than the cost of a Model S. If they can get the cost down and integrate the EV technology with a larger more practical vehicle while retaining some of that performance, we'd have a tremendous product.
05-15-2014, 07:36 PM
#190
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
18 Posts
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
The genius behind Tesla, as Elon put it himself, is that their goal was to prove that EV's aren't just for environmental purposes (of course, that is always the most important cause for why they are the key to the future of transportation), but to prove that they can build "the best car in the world" as an EV, and prove that EV's are actually for the car enthusiasts as well.
They did just that. Who would've known that an all electric power train has such superior performance capabilities to a gasser? I mean, this is just Tesla's first gen and it's performing like it does, this is FAR above what ICE cars were doing when they first came out.
The battery creating a low center of gravity and spreading the weight around in a controlled manner, the instant torque, constant "gear", practically silent drivetrain, etc. all make for a superior mode of getting performance out of your car than a gas engine.
That's what made Tesla really put EV's on that map. And that's why they get so much credit.
They did just that. Who would've known that an all electric power train has such superior performance capabilities to a gasser? I mean, this is just Tesla's first gen and it's performing like it does, this is FAR above what ICE cars were doing when they first came out.
The battery creating a low center of gravity and spreading the weight around in a controlled manner, the instant torque, constant "gear", practically silent drivetrain, etc. all make for a superior mode of getting performance out of your car than a gas engine.
That's what made Tesla really put EV's on that map. And that's why they get so much credit.
05-15-2014, 08:28 PM
#191
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,056
Received 3,241 Likes
on
2,018 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Can we please move this thread!
This has nothing to do with the w222 S550 or the S63.
This has nothing to do with the w222 S550 or the S63.
05-15-2014, 09:46 PM
#192
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
Received 290 Likes
on
203 Posts
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
It's not complicated, If you have two 4500 lb cars and one has a significant majority of its mass concentrated in the floor it will have a lower center of gravity than the car whose mass is distributed elsewhere. Mercedes has done many wonderful things but they didn't invent physics.
I'm not suggesting Tesla built an electric S Class. I'm pointing out that the reason for the comparison with the S Class is that many of the hallmarks that make the big Benz special...being powerful, ultra quiet, having a great ride..can be found in the Tesla. My point is exactly your point:
"It is easy not to have "technical hurdles" when you aren't building a traditional car."
You seem to think that's slam against Tesla, but maybe it's a slam against Mercedes for only building traditional cars.
I'm also on the record here lamenting the cheap interior materials and overpowering infotainment screen, and the obvious limitations of EV power in general.
With respect to a quiet ride, obviously if you build your car around a mechanical device, like a powerful internal combustion engine that is by its nature loud, and you don't want your vehicle's occupants to hear it, you have to insulate and shield them physically and acoustically . If you think about an ICE, it makes power using thousands of tiny contained explosions. It shakes around. It gets hot. It emits a poisonous vapor. It's a fairly hostile piece of machinery that has to be corralled and managed.
I'm not suggesting Tesla built an electric S Class. I'm pointing out that the reason for the comparison with the S Class is that many of the hallmarks that make the big Benz special...being powerful, ultra quiet, having a great ride..can be found in the Tesla. My point is exactly your point:
"It is easy not to have "technical hurdles" when you aren't building a traditional car."
You seem to think that's slam against Tesla, but maybe it's a slam against Mercedes for only building traditional cars.
I'm also on the record here lamenting the cheap interior materials and overpowering infotainment screen, and the obvious limitations of EV power in general.
With respect to a quiet ride, obviously if you build your car around a mechanical device, like a powerful internal combustion engine that is by its nature loud, and you don't want your vehicle's occupants to hear it, you have to insulate and shield them physically and acoustically . If you think about an ICE, it makes power using thousands of tiny contained explosions. It shakes around. It gets hot. It emits a poisonous vapor. It's a fairly hostile piece of machinery that has to be corralled and managed.
No one said that they did. I simply asked how you know what the center of gravity is of the S-Class? You obviously don't know. I am fully aware of what Tesla has done, but you act like it is the second coming of the automobile. It isn't. Beyond the car drivetrain the car is nothing special. It's cheap, loud, expensive with a interior that doesn't approach the price they're asking for it. All the money was spent on the drive system, no where else. It doesn't compare to an S-Class IMO, it isn't even an apples to apple comparison. Yes we know the Tesla has a lower center of gravity, doesn't make the S-Class a tippy Range Rover from the 80's either. Beyond not having an ICE, the Tesla is under the same constraints of any other car far as noise is concerned. I've been in the car. It isn't even remotely like a S-Class from that standpoint.
M
05-15-2014, 09:50 PM
#193
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
Received 290 Likes
on
203 Posts
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 05-15-2014 at 09:57 PM.
05-15-2014, 10:11 PM
#194
MBWorld Fanatic!
No one said that they did. I simply asked how you know what the center of gravity is of the S-Class? You obviously don't know. I am fully aware of what Tesla has done, but you act like it is the second coming of the automobile. It isn't. Beyond the car drivetrain the car is nothing special. It's cheap, loud, expensive with a interior that doesn't approach the price they're asking for it. All the money was spent on the drive system, no where else. It doesn't compare to an S-Class IMO, it isn't even an apples to apple comparison. Yes we know the Tesla has a lower center of gravity, doesn't make the S-Class a tippy Range Rover from the 80's either. Beyond not having an ICE, the Tesla is under the same constraints of any other car far as noise is concerned. I've been in the car. It isn't even remotely like a S-Class from that standpoint.
M
M
And yes, an S Class without ABC rolls in the corners. So much that the 221 has seats that inflate their side bolsters to help keep the occupants upright in turns. From a ride standpoint the air suspension is great. You can also get a full air suspension in the Tesla, BTW.
I fully understand that with the Tesla you're paying a premium for an exotic drivetrain with a very expensive battery, and that if you put a V6 in it the Tesla is a $50,000 car on its best day. I've owned three S Class. They're very nice, refined, complicated, finicky things that are rewarding to drive when they're running correctly. The Germans are good, but they lost two wars for a reason.
The odds of me swearing off S Classes for the Tesla are low, but there's nothing inherently wrong with folks thinking that there may be a more interesting way to spend a hundred grand on a car than on an S550.
Last edited by Mike5215; 05-15-2014 at 10:15 PM.
05-15-2014, 10:18 PM
#195
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
Received 290 Likes
on
203 Posts
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
How do I know where the center of gravity is in the S Class? I know it's higher than the floor, where in the S Class there's carpeting and floor mats, and where in the Tesla there's carpeting and floor mats and a 1,200 pound battery that's a full 1/4 of the car's total weight. The next heaviest components, the drive motors, also sit down low. Not hard to figure out, Sir Newton.
And yes, an S Class without ABC rolls in the corners. So much that the 221 has seats that inflate their side bolsters to help keep the occupants upright in turns. From a ride standpoint the air suspension is great. You can also get a full air suspension in the Tesla, BTW.
I fully understand that with the Tesla you're paying a premium for an exotic drivetrain with a very expensive battery, and that if you put a V6 in it the Tesla is a $50,000 car on its best day. I've owned three S Class. They're very nice, refined, complicated, finicky things that are rewarding to drive when they're running correctly. The Germans are good, but they lost two wars for a reason.
The odds of me swearing off S Classes for the Tesla are low, but there's nothing inherently wrong with folks thinking that there may be a more interesting way to spend a hundred grand on a car than an S550.
And yes, an S Class without ABC rolls in the corners. So much that the 221 has seats that inflate their side bolsters to help keep the occupants upright in turns. From a ride standpoint the air suspension is great. You can also get a full air suspension in the Tesla, BTW.
I fully understand that with the Tesla you're paying a premium for an exotic drivetrain with a very expensive battery, and that if you put a V6 in it the Tesla is a $50,000 car on its best day. I've owned three S Class. They're very nice, refined, complicated, finicky things that are rewarding to drive when they're running correctly. The Germans are good, but they lost two wars for a reason.
The odds of me swearing off S Classes for the Tesla are low, but there's nothing inherently wrong with folks thinking that there may be a more interesting way to spend a hundred grand on a car than an S550.
Your argument doesn't make sense because the S-Class, especially a S550 is not trying to be a sports sedan. It is supposed to roll in the corners so you can have the ride it has. What is the point? The two cars are not playing the same game yet you put down the S for its intended mission. Sounds like to me you're trying to justify the Tesla for all the wrong reasons none of which make any sense IMO. They're vastly different cars. The Mercedes is the best of its breed and the Tesla is the best of its breed by default since it has no EV competition in that space. Fisker tapped put. Sure there other ways to spend S550 type money, but the reasons given here don't pass muster IMO.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 05-15-2014 at 10:23 PM.
05-15-2014, 10:55 PM
#196
MBWorld Fanatic!
Your argument doesn't make sense because the S-Class, especially a S550 is not trying to be a sports sedan. It is supposed to roll in the corners so you can have the ride it has. What is the point? The two cars are not playing the same game yet you put down the S for its intended mission. Sounds like to me you're trying to justify the Tesla for all the wrong reasons none of which make any sense IMO. They're vastly different cars. The Mercedes is the best of its breed and the Tesla is the best of its breed by default since it has no EV competition in that space. Fisker tapped put. Sure there other ways to spend S550 type money, but the reasons given here don't pass muster IMO.
M
M
Meanwhile I will officially put you in the camp for which the Tesla S is not up for your consideration under any circumstances.
05-15-2014, 10:59 PM
#197
How to explain what it's like to own a Tesla Model S to your grandmother? Here is one possible way:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s
The bottom line perspective (after following this entire thread):
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s
The bottom line perspective (after following this entire thread):
- It is difficult trying to convince a smart person that he is wrong, reasonably and with evidence.
- Due to their thinking abilities, smart people can out-argue most criticism even if the criticism is right.
- At the end, it does not matter which car excels and which one sucks.
- Afford both of them, have both of them, love and hate both of them. There is only one life. Enjoy it.
05-15-2014, 11:08 PM
#198
MBWorld Fanatic!
How to explain what it's like to own a Tesla Model S to your grandmother? Here is one possible way:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s
The bottom line perspective (after following this entire thread):
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s
The bottom line perspective (after following this entire thread):
- It is difficult trying to convince a smart person that he is wrong, reasonably and with evidence.
- Due to their thinking abilities, smart people can out-argue most criticism even if the criticism is right.
- At the end, it does not matter which car excels and which one sucks.
- Afford both of them, have both of them, love and hate both of them. There is only one life. Enjoy it.
Last edited by Mike5215; 05-15-2014 at 11:19 PM.
05-16-2014, 12:04 AM
#199
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
18 Posts
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
The Model S can very arguably be considered the "second coming of the automobile". Very literally.
There's a reason their market cap has surpassed and/or is approaching much larger manufacturers who have been around forever.
Everyone should read that article about Steve Cannon to witness a case study on how a worried out-of-touch/old guard executive treats what is very clearly a revolutionary threat.
The Model S is also extremely quiet. I don't know of anyone who's ever called one "loud". And yes it's not built to the standard of an S Class, or maybe even a Kia for that matter in simple fit and finish things, but they seem to get better every year, and the pluses on it can make it a drastically more impressive car than an S Class to many people (see: all the ones who buy it over the S Class, for starters). Fact is, the S Class drives like a boat, purposefully so, the Model S is a Sports Sedan with the most innovative drivetrain in the world, which one you prefer will be a good way to explaining which one you think is the better engineering feat.
There's a reason their market cap has surpassed and/or is approaching much larger manufacturers who have been around forever.
Everyone should read that article about Steve Cannon to witness a case study on how a worried out-of-touch/old guard executive treats what is very clearly a revolutionary threat.
The Model S is also extremely quiet. I don't know of anyone who's ever called one "loud". And yes it's not built to the standard of an S Class, or maybe even a Kia for that matter in simple fit and finish things, but they seem to get better every year, and the pluses on it can make it a drastically more impressive car than an S Class to many people (see: all the ones who buy it over the S Class, for starters). Fact is, the S Class drives like a boat, purposefully so, the Model S is a Sports Sedan with the most innovative drivetrain in the world, which one you prefer will be a good way to explaining which one you think is the better engineering feat.
05-16-2014, 12:10 AM
#200
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
Received 290 Likes
on
203 Posts
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Well, you've driven the car and I have not, so I can't really argue with your impressions until I'm able to drive the Tesla and see for myself.
Meanwhile I will officially put you in the camp for which the Tesla S is not up for your consideration under any circumstances.
Meanwhile I will officially put you in the camp for which the Tesla S is not up for your consideration under any circumstances.
No quite the opposite actually, if I could just have all the cars I want at once I would consider one for the novelty of it. I just can't take the car seriously at the price and having to pay for one with hard earned money. It isn't proven yet and it is still compromised as far as range and venturing out of wealthy areas where all the charging stations are.
Actually, no one said the body of the car was cheap and flimsy, only the interior. It fits together and has the finish of a kit car.
My point is that comparing it to a S-Class is a apples to oranges that's it. The Tesla's closest competitors are actually the pitiful Cadillac ELR and the BMW i8.
M
