222 S550 coupe
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
That's the point. You're talking about the S. What other M-B drives "beautifully"? The E drives like a disaster, my two did. The SL is nothing to write home about, drives great, but there are better. The C? The new one to me is less engaging and solid feeling than the previous. The CLA drives like a basic Nissan, really, and it's quit harsh when the roads get rough, and the interior doesn't feel much better than one. The SUV's drives like grandmom cars with their school-bus light steering and choppy-water like ride, etc.
AMG's on the other hand have stepped it up to pull complete 180's on some of these cars.
Yes, M-B is having trouble selling more expensive cars, fact. Look at the sales charts. I'm not interested in excuses for it. The previous CL could've been discontinued it contributed so little, and the current SL, mind you usually a HUGE moment in automotive history, is already forgotten basically, probably the least special SL launch ever.
AGAIN, WHAT PART OF NO BRAND IS SELLING MORE NOW THAN THEY DID BEFORE THE RECESSION DON'T YOU GET? YOU'RE JUST WRONG HERE, AGAIN, DO YOU WANT THE NUMBERS?
BTW, people waiting on orders doesn't mean what you think it does. Whenever you place an order for a car, you always have to wait. I'm waiting for a car myself, etc.
The upper segment cars don't NEED to sell in large numbers, but the issue is that M-B has made it so that they're less important, and so you can lease much cheaper models that look the same, which makes M-B a whole different brand than they used to be. They used to DOMINATE simply with aspirational cars. Now you can't really call them an aspirational brand so much anymore, save for a few upper segment cars, and even those cars have "lesser" siblings that look exactly alike. Again, it's changed the whole dynamic for the brand. They want to win the sales race by volume and affordability, which again, doesn't contribute to brand prestige or aspiration, it makes it a brand highly regarded in a way more akin to a Toyota/Lexus, etc.
M
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Porsche, RR, Bentley, Maserati, etc. are all seeing growth at premium ranges, while M-B is gaining more competition. It's that simple.
Porsche? Are you kidding? They have a truck now based on an Audi Q5 and they've build an SUV and a sedan since with all the purists screaming murder of the brand, yet they survived.
M-B is "maintaining" its lead in upper segments, is how you should put it. But it's losing market share, and they have no one else to blame but themselves, as they diluted the prestige of those cars with their own increasingly lower-average MSRP and more homogenized lineup, along with lagging in engineering virtues in both drive and technology. Not to mention, almost everyone who's not on forums that I talk to agree that M-B's design has lost what made it so timeless and powerful to begin with, as they've entered a mess of an identity crisis within the last several years
Prove it with the sales numbers and the share numbers.
M
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Firstly, quoting sales figures for newly launched S Classes isn't an accurate way to present things. This isn't intended to discount the W222, but M-B can release a turd and call it "the new S550" and it'll sell in droves initially. Let's see how it does in 4+ years, that'll be the testament. I'm sure it'll do fine.
The AMG GT, again, a car we'll rarely seen as an attempt by M-B to balance out all their cheaper cars. It's a halo car, and not nearly enough to balance out the more tangible models that will wear the badge, with FWD, cheap interiors and poor dynamics. The GT is nice, but M-B isn't defined by it, it's defined by its CLA, C Class, E Class, etc.
I understand that M-B is supposed to be about luxury. That's why the at least pre-facelift E Class is a disaster. It's drives like an old Cadillac around turns yet is harsh as my old lowered Mustang GT over bumps. Again, it's an example of horrible chassis/suspension engineering by Mercedes, or at least confusion considering they don't know how to make it one way with out sacrificing the other, making it pretty much bad at both. Maybe they improved it for the facelift, I drove one and found it drove identically. The W222 I'm sure is much better, BUT many complain about an extremely harsh ride with 20's and RFT's, which isn't acceptable as 20's nor RFT's aren rare and many have made due with both.
M-B's market share in the upper segments has declined, and IMO, they have themselves to blame for that more than any market issues. They always could sell expensive cars, but now they can't as easily as they did before. And others have encroached on them within the last even 10 years, even as M-B has expanded their lineup at the top as well as bottom.
Porsche's expansions prove to be best in class, and their Q5 based "truck" is the best driving SUV, ever. That's why those purists keep their profit margins at drastically industry leading numbers, which in turn Porsche rewards with a non-bloated, specific, pure and focused brand approach. Not to mention, the Cayenne V6 last year actually had a LOWER entry price, so Porsche's entry fee has technically gone up with its newest model. Also not to mention, Porsche used to have a car that was actually originally intended to be a VW, yet Porsche still made it desirable and it never diluted or sacrificed their overall vision. When Mercedes releases a downmarket car, it practically doesn't look, drive or feel inside better than any basic economy car. When Porsche moves "downmarket", not only is the car still more costly than a loaded E Class (and it won't ever get M-B type discounts) but it actually introduces innovative driving into its segment, and drives like you'd expect a Porsche to, within its segment. Porsche plans and builds its cars to a specification, while even Mercedes and BMW do, to a price. This is what plot I believe M-B has lost in their overzealous attempts to please shareholders with "the most sales" by moving so downmarket thus diminishing the prestige of their upper range models. Even though M-B was always more family/consumer oriented and sold more, I feel M-B used to be put into the "upper upper luxury range" as a brand, now, much less so.
The AMG GT, again, a car we'll rarely seen as an attempt by M-B to balance out all their cheaper cars. It's a halo car, and not nearly enough to balance out the more tangible models that will wear the badge, with FWD, cheap interiors and poor dynamics. The GT is nice, but M-B isn't defined by it, it's defined by its CLA, C Class, E Class, etc.
I understand that M-B is supposed to be about luxury. That's why the at least pre-facelift E Class is a disaster. It's drives like an old Cadillac around turns yet is harsh as my old lowered Mustang GT over bumps. Again, it's an example of horrible chassis/suspension engineering by Mercedes, or at least confusion considering they don't know how to make it one way with out sacrificing the other, making it pretty much bad at both. Maybe they improved it for the facelift, I drove one and found it drove identically. The W222 I'm sure is much better, BUT many complain about an extremely harsh ride with 20's and RFT's, which isn't acceptable as 20's nor RFT's aren rare and many have made due with both.
M-B's market share in the upper segments has declined, and IMO, they have themselves to blame for that more than any market issues. They always could sell expensive cars, but now they can't as easily as they did before. And others have encroached on them within the last even 10 years, even as M-B has expanded their lineup at the top as well as bottom.
Porsche's expansions prove to be best in class, and their Q5 based "truck" is the best driving SUV, ever. That's why those purists keep their profit margins at drastically industry leading numbers, which in turn Porsche rewards with a non-bloated, specific, pure and focused brand approach. Not to mention, the Cayenne V6 last year actually had a LOWER entry price, so Porsche's entry fee has technically gone up with its newest model. Also not to mention, Porsche used to have a car that was actually originally intended to be a VW, yet Porsche still made it desirable and it never diluted or sacrificed their overall vision. When Mercedes releases a downmarket car, it practically doesn't look, drive or feel inside better than any basic economy car. When Porsche moves "downmarket", not only is the car still more costly than a loaded E Class (and it won't ever get M-B type discounts) but it actually introduces innovative driving into its segment, and drives like you'd expect a Porsche to, within its segment. Porsche plans and builds its cars to a specification, while even Mercedes and BMW do, to a price. This is what plot I believe M-B has lost in their overzealous attempts to please shareholders with "the most sales" by moving so downmarket thus diminishing the prestige of their upper range models. Even though M-B was always more family/consumer oriented and sold more, I feel M-B used to be put into the "upper upper luxury range" as a brand, now, much less so.
Last edited by K-A; Oct 13, 2014 at 03:42 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Firstly, quoting sales figures for newly launched S Classes isn't an accurate way to present things. This isn't intended to discount the W222, but M-B can release a turd and call it "the new S550" and it'll sell in droves initially. Let's see how it does in 4+ years, that'll be the testament. I'm sure it'll do fine.
The AMG GT, again, a car we'll rarely seen as an attempt by M-B to balance out all their cheaper cars. It's a halo car, and not nearly enough to balance out the more tangible models that will wear the badge, with FWD, cheap interiors and poor dynamics. The GT is nice, but M-B isn't defined by it, it's defined by its CLA, C Class, E Class, etc.
You mean like BMW and Audi balance out their lineups with the competitors to the GL, SLS, SL and S Coupe? A 120 year old brand isn't defined by the CLA, are you nuts? It's a brand new car!! MB is defined by the E, SL, S and the G. Iconic MB models, not a new this year CLA. That is way off base.
Judging by how Mercedes more at the top end than anyone else, i.e. BMW, Audi or Lexus, they're doing just fine. You can't put up any evidence that shows otherwise.
I understand that M-B is supposed to be about luxury. That's why the at least pre-facelift E Class is a disaster. It's drives like an old Cadillac around turns yet is harsh as my old lowered Mustang GT over bumps. Again, it's an example of horrible chassis/suspension engineering by Mercedes, or at least confusion considering they don't know how to make it one way with out sacrificing the other, making it pretty much bad at both. Maybe they improved it for the facelift, I drove one and found it drove identically. The W222 I'm sure is much better, BUT many complain about an extremely harsh ride with 20's and RFT's, which isn't acceptable as 20's nor RFT's aren rare and many have made due with both.
This is precisely why I can't take you seriously. An old Cadillac? Do you know what an old Cadillac drove like. You're just exaggerating to make a point. Yes the design was a mess, but you bought 2 of them didn't you? There is "extremely harsh" ride in no S-Class that is BULL****. Period. Extremely harsh? Think about that? BS.
M-B's market share in the upper segments has declined, and IMO, they have themselves to blame for that more than any market issues. They always could sell expensive cars, but now they can't as easily as they did before. And others have encroached on them within the last even 10 years, even as M-B has expanded their lineup at the top as well as bottom.
Still waiting on you to prove this? Because what you don't realize is that others have invaded this market space and again Lexus, BMW and the like don't sell what the used to in the SL/S Coupe/CL/S space. FACT. Other coming into MB's market space is not MB's fault!! That is just stupid man. It is called competition.
When Mercedes releases a downmarket car, it practically doesn't look, drive or feel inside better than any basic economy car. When Porsche moves "downmarket", not only is the car still more costly than a loaded E Class (and it won't ever get M-B type discounts) but it actually introduces innovative driving into its segment, and drives like you'd expect a Porsche to, within its segment.
Porsche plans and builds its cars to a specification, while even Mercedes and BMW do, to a price. This is what plot I believe M-B has lost in their overzealous attempts to please shareholders with "the most sales" by moving so downmarket thus diminishing the prestige of their upper range models.
This is true for the fact that the word "some" is missing. BMW and MB build some of their cars to a price, as does Porsche. There is very little obvious cost cutting in a S-Class coupe or AMG GT or SL. CLA yes, no argument there, it is cheaply made for sure.
Even though M-B was always more family/consumer oriented and sold more, I feel M-B used to be put into the "upper upper luxury range" as a brand, now, much less so.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; Oct 13, 2014 at 03:56 AM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
- I never discounted how well the W221 did, it was the ultimate in its class, M-B's return to form. I'm saying that while there has become stiffer competition to the S Class, the S Class will always be the upper-segment MB that will hold strongest, by far. It's the other cars, like the CL, and SL, that depend more on pure brand cachet to justify their MSRP, that are suffering more. The CL sales have already tanked, and the SL is so new that sales should still be strong in their "initial" phase, but last I checked, sales were largely lagging the previous generation.
- That's why I said "tangibly" defined by the CLA. Emotionally, historically, of course MB isn't defined by that. That's why they can market themselves as a predominantly Luxury brand while most of their cars aren't actually Luxury Cars, and they have just a few or so that are. When you go out and look at M-B's on the roads, you'll notice that most are much lower priced models, 4 cylinder, now coming in FWD, basic spec, economy-car-esque leases (there was even a commercial by a dealer here advertising to "stop looking at those Nissans and Honda's, did you know that you can lease a Mercedes at near the same price?!"..... it was gross. "Tangibly" is the key word. But of course the brand would be worthless if that's how people emotionally identified the brand. In 20+ years, if trends continue, the brand very well can be identified as "cheap premium" cars, with FWD, comparable to entry level brands, and with a few halo cars that you rarely see. I hope not, but it could very well happen if they continue.
-Actually, it's funny, my friend who drove my E Class home when I got the BMW, literally almost served into a lane, when I asked "WTF happened" he said "this car is so loose, the steering so light that I didn't expect it to turn like an old Cadillac". Funny thing is, he actually used to drive an old Cadillac. Obviously there's hyperbole in that, but it says a lot that the joke or metaphor was even made. And IMO the pre-facelift E looks like a masterpiece compared to the identity disaster and haphazardly mashed-up/bandaid mess of the facelift design, which is just the worst example of a design team, be it execution or management (such a drastic facelift to destroy an already broken design, bad form all around).
-Yes, the S Coupe and AMG GT, design aside (subjective), appear to be designed to a specification more than a price as well, no argument there. Yet, with my own issues with the IMO messed up dynamics of modern M-B's, I'd have to drive the S Coupe to see if that actually holds true fundamentally, or if it's lipstick. Based on what WSH said about the S550 Coupe's drive, it sounds like exactly my complaints about other M-B models.
On another note, watch Jay Leno's video of his M-B 600. It's pretty amazing when he describes how Mercedes literally built it with no regards at all to price. They said to make it the best in every way that they can, tomorrow be damned (i.e how insanely expensive it is to fix even a button not working due to hydraulics used, hydraulics because it ensured the smoothest operation). Other than Bugatti which apparently was Piech's own version of that "costs be damned, make the best car in the world, period", it's pretty amazing to see the chances they could take. Probably because those eras were still closer to the eras where the creators of the brands themselves or their more immediate offsprings were alive, to begin with. Today, even the best cars have to meet some boardroom/bean counter criteria.
- That's why I said "tangibly" defined by the CLA. Emotionally, historically, of course MB isn't defined by that. That's why they can market themselves as a predominantly Luxury brand while most of their cars aren't actually Luxury Cars, and they have just a few or so that are. When you go out and look at M-B's on the roads, you'll notice that most are much lower priced models, 4 cylinder, now coming in FWD, basic spec, economy-car-esque leases (there was even a commercial by a dealer here advertising to "stop looking at those Nissans and Honda's, did you know that you can lease a Mercedes at near the same price?!"..... it was gross. "Tangibly" is the key word. But of course the brand would be worthless if that's how people emotionally identified the brand. In 20+ years, if trends continue, the brand very well can be identified as "cheap premium" cars, with FWD, comparable to entry level brands, and with a few halo cars that you rarely see. I hope not, but it could very well happen if they continue.
-Actually, it's funny, my friend who drove my E Class home when I got the BMW, literally almost served into a lane, when I asked "WTF happened" he said "this car is so loose, the steering so light that I didn't expect it to turn like an old Cadillac". Funny thing is, he actually used to drive an old Cadillac. Obviously there's hyperbole in that, but it says a lot that the joke or metaphor was even made. And IMO the pre-facelift E looks like a masterpiece compared to the identity disaster and haphazardly mashed-up/bandaid mess of the facelift design, which is just the worst example of a design team, be it execution or management (such a drastic facelift to destroy an already broken design, bad form all around).
-Yes, the S Coupe and AMG GT, design aside (subjective), appear to be designed to a specification more than a price as well, no argument there. Yet, with my own issues with the IMO messed up dynamics of modern M-B's, I'd have to drive the S Coupe to see if that actually holds true fundamentally, or if it's lipstick. Based on what WSH said about the S550 Coupe's drive, it sounds like exactly my complaints about other M-B models.
On another note, watch Jay Leno's video of his M-B 600. It's pretty amazing when he describes how Mercedes literally built it with no regards at all to price. They said to make it the best in every way that they can, tomorrow be damned (i.e how insanely expensive it is to fix even a button not working due to hydraulics used, hydraulics because it ensured the smoothest operation). Other than Bugatti which apparently was Piech's own version of that "costs be damned, make the best car in the world, period", it's pretty amazing to see the chances they could take. Probably because those eras were still closer to the eras where the creators of the brands themselves or their more immediate offsprings were alive, to begin with. Today, even the best cars have to meet some boardroom/bean counter criteria.
Last edited by K-A; Oct 13, 2014 at 04:17 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 372
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles
A Few
Came here to say OP is smoking the purest crack of all cracks.
Saw a new Edition 1 at my dealership today, absolutely stunning car inside and out. Best wide body Coupe or Benz in general MB has done. Amazing.
Saw a new Edition 1 at my dealership today, absolutely stunning car inside and out. Best wide body Coupe or Benz in general MB has done. Amazing.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
- I never discounted how well the W221 did, it was the ultimate in its class, M-B's return to form. I'm saying that while there has become stiffer competition to the S Class, the S Class will always be the upper-segment MB that will hold strongest, by far. It's the other cars, like the CL, and SL, that depend more on pure brand cachet to justify their MSRP, that are suffering more. The CL sales have already tanked, and the SL is so new that sales should still be strong in their "initial" phase, but last I checked, sales were largely lagging the previous generation.
Let me help you out here since you the last time you checked sales were largely lacking the previous generation. Again, the 5th time I've asked this question: Do you not realize that no car from BMW, Audi, Lexus in that area has sold as well as it did since before the recession? 5th Time, do you not understand this?
CL Sales Numbers
2002 - 3938
2003 - 3377
2004 - 2683
2005 - 1320
2006 - 1312
2007 - 3672 --> New Generation, only 266 off the old peak sales
2008- 2733
2009 - 1220 - Bottom fell out of the entire luxury market
2010 - 1035
2011 - 943
2012 - 723
2013 - 476
By the time the market recovered, the CL was an old car. The current/outgoing CL was introduced it was nearly as strong as the previous car, less than 300 units difference.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Do you need the numbers on other cars in the space to see that none of them are selling at the heights that they used to? All except the A8, which never sold before anyways.
- That's why I said "tangibly" defined by the CLA. Emotionally, historically, of course MB isn't defined by that. That's why they can market themselves as a predominantly Luxury brand while most of their cars aren't actually Luxury Cars, and they have just a few or so that are. When you go out and look at M-B's on the roads, you'll notice that most are much lower priced models, 4 cylinder, now coming in FWD, basic spec, economy-car-esque leases (there was even a commercial by a dealer here advertising to "stop looking at those Nissans and Honda's, did you know that you can lease a Mercedes at near the same price?!"..... it was gross. "Tangibly" is the key word. But of course the brand would be worthless if that's how people emotionally identified the brand. In 20+ years, if trends continue, the brand very well can be identified as "cheap premium" cars, with FWD, comparable to entry level brands, and with a few halo cars that you rarely see. I hope not, but it could very well happen if they continue.
If you've got reach for a probably in 20 years then you've got no case in 2014.
-Actually, it's funny, my friend who drove my E Class home when I got the BMW, literally almost served into a lane, when I asked "WTF happened" he said "this car is so loose, the steering so light that I didn't expect it to turn like an old Cadillac". Funny thing is, he actually used to drive an old Cadillac. Obviously there's hyperbole in that, but it says a lot that the joke or metaphor was even made. And IMO the pre-facelift E looks like a masterpiece compared to the identity disaster and haphazardly mashed-up/bandaid mess of the facelift design, which is just the worst example of a design team, be it execution or management (such a drastic facelift to destroy an already broken design, bad form all around).
-Yes, the S Coupe and AMG GT, design aside (subjective), appear to be designed to a specification more than a price as well, no argument there. Yet, with my own issues with the IMO messed up dynamics of modern M-B's, I'd have to drive the S Coupe to see if that actually holds true fundamentally, or if it's lipstick. Based on what WSH said about the S550 Coupe's drive, it sounds like exactly my complaints about other M-B models.
On another note, watch Jay Leno's video of his M-B 600. It's pretty amazing when he describes how Mercedes literally built it with no regards at all to price. They said to make it the best in every way that they can, tomorrow be damned (i.e how insanely expensive it is to fix even a button not working due to hydraulics used, hydraulics because it ensured the smoothest operation). Other than Bugatti which apparently was Piech's own version of that "costs be damned, make the best car in the world, period", it's pretty amazing to see the chances they could take. Probably because those eras were still closer to the eras where the creators of the brands themselves or their more immediate offsprings were alive, to begin with. Today, even the best cars have to meet some boardroom/bean counter criteria.
M
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,556
Likes: 3,680
From: Land of 10,000 lakes
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Another thread ruined by K-A...
I already feel sorry for the BMW forum members when he switches to his Porsche Macan and then hurls his nonsense of how BMW lost their way at them...
I already feel sorry for the BMW forum members when he switches to his Porsche Macan and then hurls his nonsense of how BMW lost their way at them...
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Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: London
2013 C class Coupe 250 CDI
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: London
2013 C class Coupe 250 CDI
You do realize the CL was being replaced this year right and it was 7 years old right?
Let me help you out here since you the last time you checked sales were largely lacking the previous generation. Again, the 5th time I've asked this question: Do you not realize that no car from BMW, Audi, Lexus in that area has sold as well as it did since before the recession? 5th Time, do you not understand this?
CL Sales Numbers
2002 - 3938
2003 - 3377
2004 - 2683
2005 - 1320
2006 - 1312
2007 - 3672 --> New Generation, only 266 off the old peak sales
2008- 2733
2009 - 1220 - Bottom fell out of the entire luxury market
2010 - 1035
2011 - 943
2012 - 723
2013 - 476
By the time the market recovered, the CL was an old car. The current/outgoing CL was introduced it was nearly as strong as the previous car, less than 300 units difference.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Do you need the numbers on other cars in the space to see that none of them are selling at the heights that they used to? All except the A8, which never sold before anyways.
Sorry man but this is just stupid. What you see on the roads from Mercedes is predominantly C-Classes and E-Classes and what you see on the roads don't define a brand. Mercedes is not defined in any part by a car that has just been on the market for a year that doesn't even sell as well as the C or E-Class. The C and E outsells the CLA by hearly 2-1 yet you think the CLA is more popular. Ridiculous and off base.
If you've got reach for a probably in 20 years then you've got no case in 2014.
All in his opinion, not fact. Design, well that is your issue.
It is your issue alone. There is nothing wrong with MB's dynamics unless you're looking for sports sedan in a something like a non AMG E or S and now C. Don't bother driving the S Coupe, it isn't going to cut it. I'd suggest you drive the S63 not the S550 because again the S550 Coupe isn't a sports car.
Stunning vehicle yes, unsustainable in today's market unless you want MB to retreat to being a boutique manufacturer l Rolls Royce or Bentley.
M
Let me help you out here since you the last time you checked sales were largely lacking the previous generation. Again, the 5th time I've asked this question: Do you not realize that no car from BMW, Audi, Lexus in that area has sold as well as it did since before the recession? 5th Time, do you not understand this?
CL Sales Numbers
2002 - 3938
2003 - 3377
2004 - 2683
2005 - 1320
2006 - 1312
2007 - 3672 --> New Generation, only 266 off the old peak sales
2008- 2733
2009 - 1220 - Bottom fell out of the entire luxury market
2010 - 1035
2011 - 943
2012 - 723
2013 - 476
By the time the market recovered, the CL was an old car. The current/outgoing CL was introduced it was nearly as strong as the previous car, less than 300 units difference.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Do you need the numbers on other cars in the space to see that none of them are selling at the heights that they used to? All except the A8, which never sold before anyways.
Sorry man but this is just stupid. What you see on the roads from Mercedes is predominantly C-Classes and E-Classes and what you see on the roads don't define a brand. Mercedes is not defined in any part by a car that has just been on the market for a year that doesn't even sell as well as the C or E-Class. The C and E outsells the CLA by hearly 2-1 yet you think the CLA is more popular. Ridiculous and off base.
If you've got reach for a probably in 20 years then you've got no case in 2014.
All in his opinion, not fact. Design, well that is your issue.
It is your issue alone. There is nothing wrong with MB's dynamics unless you're looking for sports sedan in a something like a non AMG E or S and now C. Don't bother driving the S Coupe, it isn't going to cut it. I'd suggest you drive the S63 not the S550 because again the S550 Coupe isn't a sports car.
Stunning vehicle yes, unsustainable in today's market unless you want MB to retreat to being a boutique manufacturer l Rolls Royce or Bentley.
M
Last edited by Sol01; Oct 13, 2014 at 06:23 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
You do realize the CL was being replaced this year right and it was 7 years old right?
Let me help you out here since you the last time you checked sales were largely lacking the previous generation. Again, the 5th time I've asked this question: Do you not realize that no car from BMW, Audi, Lexus in that area has sold as well as it did since before the recession? 5th Time, do you not understand this?
CL Sales Numbers
2002 - 3938
2003 - 3377
2004 - 2683
2005 - 1320
2006 - 1312
2007 - 3672 --> New Generation, only 266 off the old peak sales
2008- 2733
2009 - 1220 - Bottom fell out of the entire luxury market
2010 - 1035
2011 - 943
2012 - 723
2013 - 476
By the time the market recovered, the CL was an old car. The current/outgoing CL was introduced it was nearly as strong as the previous car, less than 300 units difference.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Do you need the numbers on other cars in the space to see that none of them are selling at the heights that they used to? All except the A8, which never sold before anyways.
Sorry man but this is just stupid. What you see on the roads from Mercedes is predominantly C-Classes and E-Classes and what you see on the roads don't define a brand. Mercedes is not defined in any part by a car that has just been on the market for a year that doesn't even sell as well as the C or E-Class. The C and E outsells the CLA by hearly 2-1 yet you think the CLA is more popular. Ridiculous and off base.
If you've got reach for a probably in 20 years then you've got no case in 2014.
All in his opinion, not fact. Design, well that is your issue.
It is your issue alone. There is nothing wrong with MB's dynamics unless you're looking for sports sedan in a something like a non AMG E or S and now C. Don't bother driving the S Coupe, it isn't going to cut it. I'd suggest you drive the S63 not the S550 because again the S550 Coupe isn't a sports car.
Stunning vehicle yes, unsustainable in today's market unless you want MB to retreat to being a boutique manufacturer l Rolls Royce or Bentley.
M
Let me help you out here since you the last time you checked sales were largely lacking the previous generation. Again, the 5th time I've asked this question: Do you not realize that no car from BMW, Audi, Lexus in that area has sold as well as it did since before the recession? 5th Time, do you not understand this?
CL Sales Numbers
2002 - 3938
2003 - 3377
2004 - 2683
2005 - 1320
2006 - 1312
2007 - 3672 --> New Generation, only 266 off the old peak sales
2008- 2733
2009 - 1220 - Bottom fell out of the entire luxury market
2010 - 1035
2011 - 943
2012 - 723
2013 - 476
By the time the market recovered, the CL was an old car. The current/outgoing CL was introduced it was nearly as strong as the previous car, less than 300 units difference.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
Do you need the numbers on other cars in the space to see that none of them are selling at the heights that they used to? All except the A8, which never sold before anyways.
Sorry man but this is just stupid. What you see on the roads from Mercedes is predominantly C-Classes and E-Classes and what you see on the roads don't define a brand. Mercedes is not defined in any part by a car that has just been on the market for a year that doesn't even sell as well as the C or E-Class. The C and E outsells the CLA by hearly 2-1 yet you think the CLA is more popular. Ridiculous and off base.
If you've got reach for a probably in 20 years then you've got no case in 2014.
All in his opinion, not fact. Design, well that is your issue.
It is your issue alone. There is nothing wrong with MB's dynamics unless you're looking for sports sedan in a something like a non AMG E or S and now C. Don't bother driving the S Coupe, it isn't going to cut it. I'd suggest you drive the S63 not the S550 because again the S550 Coupe isn't a sports car.
Stunning vehicle yes, unsustainable in today's market unless you want MB to retreat to being a boutique manufacturer l Rolls Royce or Bentley.
M
-Expensive MB models except for the S Class: Big sales declines while cheaper models increasingly become the brands bread and butter. Yes it's more dynamic than any one reason, but I think both of our arguments absolutely contribute.
-Various MB's seem to offer worst dynamics in class lately which is fine if that means "least sporty", AS LONG AS it is the most luxurious. Chassis balance is a mess on the E Class and handling very loose with rough ride over bumps. I had 2 that acted the same way and were prematurely rattling, etc. WSH made the same chassis/suspension complaint about the new Coupe which is why I brought it up. It's not about sportiness, if the car isn't that, then great, it shouldn't be, it's an MB, but the ride needs to be dialed in and engineered to "make sense". Also per my previous comment about the W222 rough ride with RFT 20's, members here used words like "feels like it's riding on railroad tracks" and "it's even almost embarrassing to have people in the car feel the harsh bumps especially coming from a car like this".
About BMW, I'll do no such thing. I soured on MB way before I got rid of my MB's. BMW is lacking in some sharpness that I crave in some models, and what really got me "inspired" to move on is because of issues with fitment thus comfort. I also have the same argument toward them expanding sloppily with pointless models that in some cases are so ugly they deter from the brand, but again I always viewed MB as a brand desired for its cachet, while BMW more for its drive. So it hurts MB where it counts more, imo. Otherwise, I have no sudden discontent for BMW and still find their designs and drive superior to MB, personally.
Last edited by K-A; Oct 13, 2014 at 07:48 PM.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 274
Likes: 1
From: .
.
Hey everyone, it's been awhile. Ive been busy with work and family.
The S coupe edition 1 have come in this week to most dealers. I got the chance to test drive it (seems they are reluctant to let people drive unless they are S-class or long time customers). I had a 133k 15 S sedan on order and they called me up to inform me to come try the coupe out.
Man, I will say I'm in love! The only one thing I dislike are the "crystal" headlights. I prefer a dual LED strand like the sedan or something blackened there to look more slick. Front hood looks mighty aggressive with the grill, and the back has an aston martin feel. But that engine, my gawd! I love the sound of that V8. MB made the sound absolutely stunning and it was very aggressive but maintained the poise of the non AMG MB lineup. Be sure to swing by and give this thing a whirl. Let me know how it goes!
Pics and videos don't do this thing justice but I shared a picture below.
The S coupe edition 1 have come in this week to most dealers. I got the chance to test drive it (seems they are reluctant to let people drive unless they are S-class or long time customers). I had a 133k 15 S sedan on order and they called me up to inform me to come try the coupe out.
Man, I will say I'm in love! The only one thing I dislike are the "crystal" headlights. I prefer a dual LED strand like the sedan or something blackened there to look more slick. Front hood looks mighty aggressive with the grill, and the back has an aston martin feel. But that engine, my gawd! I love the sound of that V8. MB made the sound absolutely stunning and it was very aggressive but maintained the poise of the non AMG MB lineup. Be sure to swing by and give this thing a whirl. Let me know how it goes!
Pics and videos don't do this thing justice but I shared a picture below.
Last edited by Long3494Qut; Jan 16, 2015 at 04:09 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
-Various MB's seem to offer worst dynamics in class lately which is fine if that means "least sporty", AS LONG AS it is the most luxurious. Chassis balance is a mess on the E Class and handling very loose with rough ride over bumps. I had 2 that acted the same way and were prematurely rattling, etc. WSH made the same chassis/suspension complaint about the new Coupe which is why I brought it up. It's not about sportiness, if the car isn't that, then great, it shouldn't be, it's an MB, but the ride needs to be dialed in and engineered to "make sense". Also per my previous comment about the W222 rough ride with RFT 20's, members here used words like "feels like it's riding on railroad tracks" and "it's even almost embarrassing to have people in the car feel the harsh bumps especially coming from a car like this".
About BMW, I'll do no such thing. I soured on MB way before I got rid of my MB's. BMW is lacking in some sharpness that I crave in some models, and what really got me "inspired" to move on is because of issues with fitment thus comfort. I also have the same argument toward them expanding sloppily with pointless models that in some cases are so ugly they deter from the brand, but again I always viewed MB as a brand desired for its cachet, while BMW more for its drive. So it hurts MB where it counts more, imo. Otherwise, I have no sudden discontent for BMW and still find their designs and drive superior to MB, personally.
So BMW gets a pass on Cadillac and Lexus and Audi shoving their ultimate driving machine mantra down their throat? Got it. Very hypocritical.
M
MBWorld Fanatic!
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Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
M
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
BMW doesn't get pass. It's just far better engineered than Mercedes and currently the leader in design via the two, in my experiences and opinion. I'm switching from BMW because it's no longer giving me what I need and/or want. But I'm not resentful (save for the industry as a whole limiting my choices via my build).
Lol, I know the S wasn't ever the best seller. You must realize that your frustration and misunderstanding what I'm saying is because you're literally not comprehending what I'm saying. That's fine, but I have point, and you're not able to get it. You have a point, I get it, but I disagree in many ways. Simple as that.
Lol, I know the S wasn't ever the best seller. You must realize that your frustration and misunderstanding what I'm saying is because you're literally not comprehending what I'm saying. That's fine, but I have point, and you're not able to get it. You have a point, I get it, but I disagree in many ways. Simple as that.
Last edited by K-A; Oct 14, 2014 at 01:53 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Right in just your opinion, the professionals say otherwise depending the product. What you're stating is a preference more than anything.
You're not comprehending what I've said from the start. Mercedes isn't the only one not selling as many cars at the top as they used to. Secondly, what you're saying is simply wrong. Bread and Butter implies a higher volume car that the company's survival depends on, that isn't the S-Class OUTSIDE of image. Image wise yes it is what Mercedes mainly trades on, but not solely as the E, SL and the C also do it for the company. The E is the most important car to them as far as sales and profits go as it sits right in the middle. That is their bread and butter. You don't really have a point other than to keep repeating false information over and over, even when proven wrong you keep repeating it. You can disagree all you like, but you haven't posted a single fact, all opinion based nonsense.
M
You're not comprehending what I've said from the start. Mercedes isn't the only one not selling as many cars at the top as they used to. Secondly, what you're saying is simply wrong. Bread and Butter implies a higher volume car that the company's survival depends on, that isn't the S-Class OUTSIDE of image. Image wise yes it is what Mercedes mainly trades on, but not solely as the E, SL and the C also do it for the company. The E is the most important car to them as far as sales and profits go as it sits right in the middle. That is their bread and butter. You don't really have a point other than to keep repeating false information over and over, even when proven wrong you keep repeating it. You can disagree all you like, but you haven't posted a single fact, all opinion based nonsense.
M
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Right in just your opinion, the professionals say otherwise depending the product. What you're stating is a preference more than anything.
You're not comprehending what I've said from the start. Mercedes isn't the only one not selling as many cars at the top as they used to. Secondly, what you're saying is simply wrong. Bread and Butter implies a higher volume car that the company's survival depends on, that isn't the S-Class OUTSIDE of image. Image wise yes it is what Mercedes mainly trades on, but not solely as the E, SL and the C also do it for the company. The E is the most important car to them as far as sales and profits go as it sits right in the middle. That is their bread and butter. You don't really have a point other than to keep repeating false information over and over, even when proven wrong you keep repeating it. You can disagree all you like, but you haven't posted a single fact, all opinion based nonsense.
M
You're not comprehending what I've said from the start. Mercedes isn't the only one not selling as many cars at the top as they used to. Secondly, what you're saying is simply wrong. Bread and Butter implies a higher volume car that the company's survival depends on, that isn't the S-Class OUTSIDE of image. Image wise yes it is what Mercedes mainly trades on, but not solely as the E, SL and the C also do it for the company. The E is the most important car to them as far as sales and profits go as it sits right in the middle. That is their bread and butter. You don't really have a point other than to keep repeating false information over and over, even when proven wrong you keep repeating it. You can disagree all you like, but you haven't posted a single fact, all opinion based nonsense.
M
Fact is, I think the S Coupe design is a disaster and you think it's gorgeous. And the world goes round.
Another fact is that almost everything all of us say here is opinion based. No need to keep pointing that out. Goes without saying.
MBWorld God!
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 31,277
Likes: 3,916
From: on my way
2012 CLS63
Hey everyone, it's been awhile. Ive been busy with work and family.
The S coupe edition 1 have come in this week to most dealers. I got the chance to test drive it (seems they are reluctant to let people drive unless they are S-class or long time customers). I had a 133k 15 S sedan on order and they called me up to inform me to come try the coupe out.
Man, I will say I'm in love! The only one thing I dislike are the "crystal" headlights. I prefer a dual LED strand like the sedan or something blackened there to look more slick. Front hood looks mighty aggressive with the grill, and the back has an aston martin feel. But that engine, my gawd! I love the sound of that V8. MB made the sound absolutely stunning and it was very aggressive but maintained the poise of the non AMG MB lineup. Be sure to swing by and give this thing a whirl. Let me know how it goes!
Pics and videos don't do this thing justice but I shared a picture below.
The S coupe edition 1 have come in this week to most dealers. I got the chance to test drive it (seems they are reluctant to let people drive unless they are S-class or long time customers). I had a 133k 15 S sedan on order and they called me up to inform me to come try the coupe out.
Man, I will say I'm in love! The only one thing I dislike are the "crystal" headlights. I prefer a dual LED strand like the sedan or something blackened there to look more slick. Front hood looks mighty aggressive with the grill, and the back has an aston martin feel. But that engine, my gawd! I love the sound of that V8. MB made the sound absolutely stunning and it was very aggressive but maintained the poise of the non AMG MB lineup. Be sure to swing by and give this thing a whirl. Let me know how it goes!
Pics and videos don't do this thing justice but I shared a picture below.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,133
Likes: 265
From: NM
2023 AMG EQS
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
I'm also well versed on Mercedes via personal experience. You on the other hand have never had a modern Benz yet you somehow think you know better than me or what WSH said that started this whole mess.
You have no idea how messy the E's chassis is, as you've driven it like a granny around the block if you've even driven it at all. I have 30k miles between two of them. Those "professionals" are speaking on opinion or by who's paying them the most money. Some of them know what they're talking about and provide good info, but I've heard plenty of people tell me that my reviews of cars I've driven more valuable to them. Those guys don't earn a degree or anything for this. And they continuously rank other cars ahead of Benzes in comparo's anyway, throughout history.
Fact is, I think the S Coupe design is a disaster and you think it's gorgeous. And the world goes round.
Another fact is that almost everything all of us say here is opinion based. No need to keep pointing that out. Goes without saying.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; Oct 14, 2014 at 12:58 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,557
Likes: 24
From: Earth
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Actually turns out it's the new C Class that's using a lot less German parts (and you can tell in many places). 
A W210 E Class? LOL? I've driven W210 E55's, but I've never had a W210 E Class.
This is the issue. You don't even know who you're talking to, no more than you do the Mercedes brand. You think you know Mercedes by reading forums and "professional" reviews? You think sales numbers mean it's a better car? This is why your arguments are so incoherent and misinformed, frustrated and misguided.
I've had 2 W212 E Class, a W211 E Class, and a W220 S Class. I've driven just about every other Benz on the market, not yet the W222 or its Coupe sister.
You have no idea how an E Class chassis is balanced. Your 30 MPH jaunt around the block won't act as I described because what I described required actual experience. Best let those who actually know Benzes first hand, speak about their intricacies, instead of hurling insults because what they say doesn't match your flowery outlook of what Mercedes means to you based some obvious nostalgic element.
A W210 E Class? LOL? I've driven W210 E55's, but I've never had a W210 E Class.
This is the issue. You don't even know who you're talking to, no more than you do the Mercedes brand. You think you know Mercedes by reading forums and "professional" reviews? You think sales numbers mean it's a better car? This is why your arguments are so incoherent and misinformed, frustrated and misguided.
I've had 2 W212 E Class, a W211 E Class, and a W220 S Class. I've driven just about every other Benz on the market, not yet the W222 or its Coupe sister.
You have no idea how an E Class chassis is balanced. Your 30 MPH jaunt around the block won't act as I described because what I described required actual experience. Best let those who actually know Benzes first hand, speak about their intricacies, instead of hurling insults because what they say doesn't match your flowery outlook of what Mercedes means to you based some obvious nostalgic element.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
This is the issue. You don't even know who you're talking to, no more than you do the Mercedes brand. You think you know Mercedes by reading forums and "professional" reviews? You think sales numbers mean it's a better car? This is why your arguments are so incoherent and misinformed, frustrated and misguided.
NO your arguments are just plain stupid and totally lacking of facts. You didn't have the common sense to know that a German made car, in Germany wouldn't have 40% Chinese parts in it. My only frustration is that you come here with your ignorant bias and try to pass it off as facts. My arguments are clear and concise as can be. I take your BS apart line by line and hand it back to you at every turn.
I've had 2 W212 E Class, a W211 E Class, and a W220 S Class. I've driven just about every other Benz on the market.
You have no idea how an E Class drives. Your 30 MPH jaunt around the block won't act as I described because what I described required actual experience. Best let those who actually know Benzes first hand, speak about them, instead of hurling insults because what they say doesn't match your flowery outlook of what Mercedes means to you based some obvious nostalgic element.
You don't know much about Mercedes first hand, outside of the pre-facelift W212, you sound really clueless.
M
