I have followed this tread and it is an interesting one indeed. I think facts are being used without also providing context and sufficient detail.

WEBSRFR states that "What is new is that the Tesla Model S is now also outselling the S Class in Western Europe as well". If digging a bit deeper into this statement, is Tesla and the S-Class priced approx the same (~USD100) in this region? It seems that a fact in the US is being transferred and applied equally as an argument for other regions in the world.

Well, it depends which country. Norway was mentioned earlier in the tread where Tesla is admittedly selling very well so I shall use this as an example. In this case, a Tesla starts at ~USD85-90 and the S-Class starts at ~USD200. Are we still making the same comparison as it would appear to me that they are in a completely different price segment?

Additional factors that are at play because Tesla is an EV are

- Certain privileges such as in many cases free parking,
- Ability to use HOV and lanes restricted for public transport
- Gas prices are extremely high
- Electricity is mostly hydro-generated etc.
- Being sponsored through government incentives due to it being "clean" (we shall leave the topic of full life-cycle pollution for now)

If a vehicle is so good, why does it need all of these privileges, subsidies and assistance from a government(s)? Should it not be selling itself and compete on even premises? For subsidies, see the following article 4.9BN.. Looks like I am already buying a portion of a Tesla based on the income tax I am paying.

I would venture to say that by the time WEBSRFR has analysed "West Europe", he will find a multitude of reasons for why Tesla is selling so well, beside being "a great car". The following document should be a good start

 

By his reasoning, Tesla is a better car then any Rolls, Bentley, Ferrari, etc.
Simply because it outsells all of them...

 

I can attest to that. I was at a car meet/show down here in Florida and I took my F355. Nothing special to most people but I enjoy it and that is what really matters. It was a very diverse group of cars and owners from High end exotics, JDM Imports, American Muscle, Diesel and WVO cars and some EV's as well including Tesla. It is not so much the car itself I have a issue with as much as the owners. All I herd from the owners is "It is the fastest car here hands down" "I have more tech then anyone here hands down" "I can go 0-60 faster then that ricer GTR" "Tesla is the future so buy your Put Put cars while you can" And it seems like every show the same nonsense occurs over and over again. Why go to a car meet a place where people interact with others if none of the other cars you feel are worth your time? I cannot speak for WEBSFRFR specifically or all Tesla owners as it would not be fair and honest but many of the ones I have come across are like cheerleaders, poster boys and people who feel the need to spread the message. It is almost worse then religion. I would be hard pressed to ever hear them say anything bad against their own car or the company.

 

I'm in denial? We're talking about worldwide, where the S Class is the segment leader, and dominant in terms of sales figures. You're the one in denial. Why do people need to buy a new S Class? Everyone who wanted one has got one already, most of the people buying them now are just repeat customers. How the hell do you get under the assumption from viewing this forum that 25,000 Model S owners compared their cars with the S Class and chose the Model S. There aren't even 500 S Class owners on here, and there only appears to be a total of 3 Model S owners active on here.
You yourself have admitted the S Class is tiers above the Model S in terms of luxury. That's all the S Class was made for.
Also, the new E Class is definitely the competitor for the Tesla Model S, especially with the long wheelbase model.
At the end of the day, for our needs, all of us on this forum have a car 10x better than the other. I still don't understand what you're objective of continuing to comment on here. You don't see us on the Model S forums hating on the Model S. It'd be petty if we do that. We're all happy with our purchases, and have no need to convince others that our car is better. No one cares if Mercedes has lost market share in not building an electric sedan. Are we losing anything? Nope.

 

MB now has an EV...........

 

I never said that.

Just that the Tesla all electric drivetrain drives better than anything else available to buy. Also love the fact that there are no obnoxious farting sounds from the exhaust and gear shifts because the Tesla drivetrain is always in gear for maximum torque for instant acceleration with zero drama.

All I've said is that as more people experience a Model S they are buying it instead of an S Class that they can buy in the same price range. The S Class is consequently loosing market share to Tesla and this is not some abstract notion but actual sales figures.

Tesla is in the midst of a complete refresh of the Model S with additional enhancements coming. The Model S Achilles heel has been the interior and even with that deficiency the rest of the car is so superior that it is outselling the S Class.

Tesla just hired Porsche's car interior designer so in the not too distant future the S Class will no longer have what I believe to be the only advantage over the Model S, the interior.

It is a lot easier for Tesla to spruce up the interior of the Model S than it is for Mercedes to build an all electric S Class with 300 miles of range. Until they do that they will keep loosing market share to Tesla as they are now.

 

Dominant in the $100K 4 door sedan segment? Not any more.

It is taking a while for Tesla to build their Supercharger network and dealerships across the globe. Wherever Tesla is established, the S Class looses in sales and mark share.

The chart I posted is self explanatory with what Tesla has done to the market segment it competes in the United States.

The Model S first outsold the S Class in the United States. It is now outselling the S Class in Western Europe and that should be quite telling on the appeal of the Model S.

As Tesla expands, the S Class will continue to loose market share in other regions until Mercedes finally builds a long range, high performance electric car that is a car of the future and not a combustion relic from the past that needs to set fire to tiny drops of gasoline to move forward.

The days of combustion cars and oil is limited that even the Saudis are embarking on a $2 trillion project to get Saudi Arabia’s economy off oil.

Very interesting read:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/featur...conomy-off-oil

 

I dont see why there is hostility in either direction.
THe S class is a great car. I love it.
THe tesla is a great car. I love it also.

They do compete in this space, despite being very different cars. If one cannot be happy with EITHER, then you have issues!

I love, however, seeing the debate, because it helps bring out the advantages and disadvantages of this comparison. So I say, keep the debate going. It has been VERY helpful to a prospective buyer, and a long term MB owner like myself.

 

They compete in this space here in the US due to a fairly equal sales price. However, they do not compete in this space everywhere else in the world. Considering the subsidies involved from multiple countries/governments, it creates a significant unfair market/competitive advantage. If an S-class was half the price of a Tesla, would Tesla still be in this position?

 

Where are your facts that as more people experience a Model S they are buying it instead of an S Class? How are you concluding that "consequently the S Class is losing market share"?


You have no facts but just using salesman's "puffery". You cannot BS people who have the ability to think. Your rationale just does not make sense.

 

WEBRFR,


Do you ever read the crap you write?


You state "...and even with that deficiency the rest of the car is so superior that it is outselling the S Class."


What? So superior to the S Class? You are so full of sh?t. I generally do not like to attack people since it is not nice to do so but you make it so easy to do so.


You have absolutely no clue. Wow! You are a Tesla sales person trying to extent the Tesla cause. I have nothing bad to say about the Model S but your logical is deficient.

 

We are all happy with our S Class's, and even to an extent happy with the Model S. Websrfr isn't happy that we prefer our S Class' to the Model S though.

 

I ordered a Model S 70D for my wife a few days ago, so eventually I'll have some opinions, but for now my thinking, based on 20-30 min of test driving by my wife, with me in the backseat, is that I like the S550 a lot better...but the MB is also a lot more money, for a car with basically comparable acceleration to the 70D.

 

You are still beating this tired drum. So the Model S outsells the S-Class, again Mercedes isn't hurting because of this and the cars are not direct competitors. Not sure why you think this matters so much. What does this prove when the cars aren't direct competitors? One is much cheaper than the other that helps a lot.

M

 

NO we can't agree on that because you don't know if all 25K of those people even looked at a S-Class. I'm not sure what you don't get here, but you have NO way of knowing how many of those buyers drove the S-Class and then bought something else. Until you prove that you are just talking out your neck.

M

 

Not at all. I am happy that people who bought the S Class ended up with the best car interior in this price range.

It's technology, drivetrain, acceleration, performance, and smoothness where I feel the Tesla Model S is superior.

It's great that there are different choices available for people with different priorities and there is really no wrong choice.

 

The backseat is not the strongpoint of the Model S. When we are driven to the airport, we prefer to be driven in an S Class. The backseat is not an issue for us as we use it less than 5% of the time.

I am sure your wife will be happy with her 70D. If she has a long commute the Autopilot can handle about 90% of her driving.

The 70D is about to be discontinued though as most of their demand is for the higher battery capacity versions. The 70D offers plenty of range for most people though and it is a tremendous value.

Congrats on the Tesla!

 

This has to be a joke. I personally test drove used Model S for my daughter numerous times. The car ONLY drives well when new. Used ones rattle and squeek crazy, and because engine is still quieter its a migraine that tesla needs to resolve quick by significantly increasing its assembly quality and doing something about the ones already built. I am okay for my laptop to not function right, but my car - my daily transport has got to be reliable and if the doors are not opening or come in your hand all broken, that is some crazy shi%, that only an EV obsessed can tolerate.

Oh Wait ... the sales figure that the tesla activists are trumpeting is from where? Guess what from www.EVobsessed.com

http://i2.wp.com/evobsession.com/wp-...sales-2015.png

Also first, Tesla itself admits that theirs is not a luxury vehicle like MB, it classifies itself as a premium car (like Chrysler 300 does). Secondly, EV technology or even for that matter advanced technology does not equate to luxury. In that vain, my Tesla is better than your Rolls ... a childish argument. Thirdly as others have pointed, the real price of Model S is around 50k. Now EV Obsessed fanatics will roll out 100K, and will force subsidies down our throats, but that does not equate Tesla with an MB. Lastly the initial acceleration of Tesla argument is lame, since it dies after 150 miles, and that too you have to watch your air-conditioning and heating, keep your windows open for as much you can and conserve power.

As a toy in my garage, Tesla is cool, as a vehicle for my daughter, it is okay, but as a main vehicle it is totally not catered for. And could the EV Obsessed keep their obsession to themselves?

 

I'm so sorry you can't grasp the simple concept that for people looking to purchase a $100K car, many more are opting for a Tesla Model S because for them it is a superior car for their money.

This is why Model S sales in the US went up 51% last year to eclipse the S Class sales. While at the same time S Class sales went down 13% competing with a Model S with a 2012 design. The numbers clearly suggest that as far as the $100K premium 4 door sedan market is concerned the market considers the Tesla Model S to be a superior choice.



And just wait until the Porsche interior designer that Tesla just hired does his magic with the interior of the Model S. Also Tesla is about to release the P100D with even better performance, battery range, and lower charging times.

 

What a silly assessment. Are you sure you did not mistakenly test drive a Chevrolet Volt?

There is a reason the Tesla Model S has a customer satisfaction rating in the mid 90s. The absolute highest in the automotive industry. It is because the car drives so well and customers are so pleased with their cars. Our Model S P85D has been rock solid. It is the quietest car we have ever owned.

It's rich for you to proclaim an EV drives so well only when new because EVs by design drive the same when new and when 3 years old. The propulsion technology does not degrade as it is governed by a magnetic field. In fact this is one of the benefits of an EV.

When a combustion car is 3 years old, it's archaic combustion technology really starts to shine with noise, vibration levels, and the whole driving experience generally getting worse. This is what happens when a car is built on a relic of engineering where propulsion is achieved by setting fire to tiny drops of gasoline. There are many drivetrain components that wear out and simply burn up unlike an EV.

Contrast that to an EV where our Model S P85D is now faster and performs better than the car that rolled out of the assembly line because a software update actually increased the performance of our car.

A combustion car only gets worse with time and you are stuck with the features the car came with. This represents the past of the automobile.

Premium EVs like a Tesla get better with time. Dozens of significant features have been added to our car during our ownership period that enhanced all aspects of our car and this represents the future of the automobile. In 10 years most cars made by Mercedes will be more like a Tesla. I am just happy to have that technology today.

 

boy, you speak like a milavian Parrot, nothing new to add, same regurgitation over and over, and from who? EVobsession.com Sad.

First thing I noted about P85D was its tiny door - big car inside but a tiny entry door, it was hard to get in and out. It is cute for my daughter, but certainly not suitable for most bigger guys. As you shut the door, you realize how light it feels, and then not to mention it sometimes will not respond. Our neighbors put a new driveway, and brought home a new Model S, after barely 2 weeks it started leaking oil from the back-end and required a new seal. As for us, we have test driven at the Tesla store and with private parties. The aging of Model S/P85D is terrible. We found either the dash area had rattles, or the seats squeeled, doors were not solid, and god know why the sunroof occasionally moved. The sales person remarked as if was a virtue, that Model S drives like a missile, so after a year of use, its bound to get some screws loose .... really? and I dont get why tree hugging activists think its a virtue.

 

`


WEBSRFR -

Aren't you the same guy who

came to my front door last week

telling me how there was still

time for me to be saved

If that was you

don't come back

I meant what I said


Thank-You
D.B.


`

 

Glad you agree, different cars for people with different priorities.

The S-Class has more than just the best interior; I really like the exterior design of it as well. Very elegant and befitting of a luxury car.

I was shocked to see the facelift of the Model S. Now this car looks as hideous (to me) as the Model 3. 1 step forward, 3 steps back.

And this is coming from a person itching to get an EV...

 

People who buy a Model S rather than a S Class have VERY different priorities. The sales for S Class will go up a TON when the facelift comes and then go down for the next year. It's been the same for every generation.

 

We are in complete agreement with the S Class having a better interior and luxury amnesties and I've always admitted that.

The Model S will catch up in this area sooner or later though. They recently hired Porsche's interior designer and they will be upgrading the interior of the Model S.

I also agree that the S Class carries more presence but I still like the understated design of the Model S interior and with the new redesign it is sleeker and I like the modern design.