Why One Should Not Buy A Tesla Model S
07-30-2016, 10:05 AM
#401
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07-30-2016, 10:08 AM
#402
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07-30-2016, 11:35 AM
#403
MBWorld Fanatic!
Nope not paid by Tesla. Just an extremely satisfied customer. Thanks to Tesla I am driving a car that would have otherwise taken the auto industry an extra decade or two to develop given that they have yet to release a car that benchmarks a 2012 Tesla Model S.
07-30-2016, 11:58 AM
#404
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I've driven an S class for over a decade, and I'm planning to replace it with another S class shortly... probably an S65 at that. That said, I drove a P85DL last week and immediately concluded that whatever ICE car I buy right now, it will inevitably be my last. The benefits of EV are immediate and obvious.
- EV cars in general can be made to be light years ahead of ICE in terms of power and handling... it's not even a fair comparison. The next major leap in cars will be when tires and motors are gone in favor of gravity/mag drives or something, because EV can already lay down more power than 4 tires can handle up to speeds that will get your car impounded, and the center of gravity is as low as can be.
- Most of the maintenance and wear items on an ICE car don't exist on an EV, so again, not even close.
- In home battery backups will displace those awful nat gas generators and power conditioners as well (not to mention APC units throughout the house). Solar panels will become pervasive as soon as someone figures out how to produce panels that aren't fugly. Excess solar power will get stored in the batteries, and that will be used to charge your car at night.
All that said, the batteries cost way too much ($45K, but I hear they are working on that), the range is too limited, the charging infrastructure and speed isn't there yet, and the Tesla finishes are not nearly as nice as the price. Tesla owners like to brag that their cars are so mechanically simple that there's just nothing to break on them, and they are right; for that same reason, however, they should be relatively cheap to build and buy, because the sum of the parts above and beyond the cost of the batteries does not nearly support the $140K price...the delta alone would pay cash for a new S Class. Instead, folks are doing funny math WRT fuel and maintenance savings and tax credits to justify it. That's fine for early adopters, but expect EV prices to plummet over the next decade.
Give me a P200DL with an S Class body on top for $120K and it's over.
- EV cars in general can be made to be light years ahead of ICE in terms of power and handling... it's not even a fair comparison. The next major leap in cars will be when tires and motors are gone in favor of gravity/mag drives or something, because EV can already lay down more power than 4 tires can handle up to speeds that will get your car impounded, and the center of gravity is as low as can be.
- Most of the maintenance and wear items on an ICE car don't exist on an EV, so again, not even close.
- In home battery backups will displace those awful nat gas generators and power conditioners as well (not to mention APC units throughout the house). Solar panels will become pervasive as soon as someone figures out how to produce panels that aren't fugly. Excess solar power will get stored in the batteries, and that will be used to charge your car at night.
All that said, the batteries cost way too much ($45K, but I hear they are working on that), the range is too limited, the charging infrastructure and speed isn't there yet, and the Tesla finishes are not nearly as nice as the price. Tesla owners like to brag that their cars are so mechanically simple that there's just nothing to break on them, and they are right; for that same reason, however, they should be relatively cheap to build and buy, because the sum of the parts above and beyond the cost of the batteries does not nearly support the $140K price...the delta alone would pay cash for a new S Class. Instead, folks are doing funny math WRT fuel and maintenance savings and tax credits to justify it. That's fine for early adopters, but expect EV prices to plummet over the next decade.
Give me a P200DL with an S Class body on top for $120K and it's over.
Also good point about solar. We are very happy with our rooftop solar install and are already generating more power than what our house and Tesla consume. Just waiting for the battery storage to drop below $100 kWh and that is expected to happen within about the next 2-3 years. And then we can go off grid with no electricity bill.
You may have to wait a while for a P200DL but the P100DL is just around the corner with about 325 miles of range. Charge times will come down to about 15 minutes in the near future as well for those few occasions where someone may want to drive for more than 5 hours nonstop.
07-30-2016, 12:04 PM
#405
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2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
For whatever reason, it seems a lot of Tesla owners are pretty passionate about the car, to the point where they want to proselytize. Though some people on the receiving end may take offense, I think it is notable, and if I didn't already own one, I'd feel the passion/proselytizing a sign that there really might be something special about the car, and it would behoove me to at least test one out if I were in the market for something in the price and size range.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
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WEBSRFR (07-30-2016)
07-30-2016, 01:15 PM
#406
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For whatever reason, it seems a lot of Tesla owners are pretty passionate about the car, to the point where they want to proselytize. Though some people on the receiving end may take offense, I think it is notable, and if I didn't already own one, I'd feel the passion/proselytizing a sign that there really might be something special about the car, and it would behoove me to at least test one out if I were in the market for something in the price and size range.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
Maybe I should join the Tesla Forum with the name "TheMercedesBenzS550Dude" or "WEBSRFR2"and tell the Tesla owners how great my S550 is.
I bet I would get a great reception to continue to post how much better my MB is without looking at reasonable factual data.
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07-30-2016, 02:44 PM
#407
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For whatever reason, it seems a lot of Tesla owners are pretty passionate about the car, to the point where they want to proselytize. Though some people on the receiving end may take offense, I think it is notable, and if I didn't already own one, I'd feel the passion/proselytizing a sign that there really might be something special about the car, and it would behoove me to at least test one out if I were in the market for something in the price and size range.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
Seriously, who would have thought 10 years ago that a bunch of Silicon Valley geeks could get together and build a car company from scratch and in 10 years build cars competitive with the finest Mercedes has to offer?
The only reason Tesla succeeded is because their decisions and designs were not made by a bunch of bureaucrats but engineers with a firm grasp on technology, innovation, and entrepreneurship.
As an American I am proud of the fact that Tesla is bringing manufacturing back to this country when everyone is rushing to build their factories in Mexico or China. Tesla is doing what we do best in America and that is reinvent entire industries with innovation and hard work.
From my daily experience of driving a Model S, Tesla has the best automotive product in the world as far as I'm concerned it is now a matter of how well and how quickly they can ramp up production. If the legacy auto industry is to survive they will have to try and build a better EV. The days of combustion cars leading the premium car segment is numbered.
With the newly opened Gigafactory their plan now is to scale the factory not just for 500,000 but to 1,500,000 vehicles. I hope they succeed as whether you drive a Tesla or Mercedes in the future the work Tesla is doing will accelerate the evolution of the modern automobile by a decade or more.
I highly recommend this recent Verge article about the Tesla Gigafactory. Very inspiring to see this all come together.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/28/12...-photos-nevada
07-31-2016, 01:29 AM
#408
I came here 'cause I heard lots of FUD and misinformation is being spread. Check out the title of the thread. Why would you not want to check out the greatest car ever built?!
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WEBSRFR (07-31-2016)
07-31-2016, 01:58 AM
#409
Do it! The fact that the s550 is superior to the tesla is every way (except standing 0-60, but not by much) will will give you a ton of amo to drive the tesla fanatics nuts! Post the highlights of the responses back to us. Will make for some fun reading.
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MDMercedesGuy (08-01-2016)
07-31-2016, 09:10 AM
#410
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Good observations and this is why the Model S has been outselling the Mercedes S Class. The driving experience and drivetrain refinement is unlike anything offered by a combustion car.
Also good point about solar. We are very happy with our rooftop solar install and are already generating more power than what our house and Tesla consume. Just waiting for the battery storage to drop below $100 kWh and that is expected to happen within about the next 2-3 years. And then we can go off grid with no electricity bill.
You may have to wait a while for a P200DL but the P100DL is just around the corner with about 325 miles of range. Charge times will come down to about 15 minutes in the near future as well for those few occasions where someone may want to drive for more than 5 hours nonstop.
Also good point about solar. We are very happy with our rooftop solar install and are already generating more power than what our house and Tesla consume. Just waiting for the battery storage to drop below $100 kWh and that is expected to happen within about the next 2-3 years. And then we can go off grid with no electricity bill.
You may have to wait a while for a P200DL but the P100DL is just around the corner with about 325 miles of range. Charge times will come down to about 15 minutes in the near future as well for those few occasions where someone may want to drive for more than 5 hours nonstop.
The P90D I had for 4 days was used by me the same way and my range dropped to less then 100 miles on first day, the impressive performance is inconsistent and I could not trust the car to do the same what it did in the morning of same day.
Maybe some day the technology will improve but for now the car is a piece of boring crap, you feel like you sit in something produced by Whirlpool not a car manufacturer.
Went with an open mind and wanted to like it and buy it (based on reading reviews by guys like you), took the top model and ended up totally disappointed.
Went straight to Audi, bought an old tech, end of production cycle Audi for which I paid $30k more then that loaded P90D and could not be happier....
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MDMercedesGuy (08-01-2016)
07-31-2016, 11:50 AM
#411
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I started this thread so I do not need to look at the title of it since I created the title.
This thread was started because people like WEBSRFR were overselling the Tesla Dream on this MB Forum site. And WEBSRFR is still doing that unfortunately. As far as FUD, yes I have tons of doubt Tesla will survive as an independent company.
Looks like you are doing the same by simply setting up a user name on an MB forum titled "TheTeslaDude". Very sad.
I believe the misinformation is coming from the people that have had too much Tesla KoolAid like WEBSRFR.
In fact, WEBSRFR sent me a private e-mail saying he would not even respond to me any more since he knows he is overselling the Tesla dream and cannot handle my specific questions that have been addressed directly to him.
Unfortunately the Tesla "Cult" mentality turns many people off.
Yes, it will be neat when MB puts an electric drive train in the S Class since the Model S interior is a $30k to $50k car interior. And I doubt Tesla will be an independent company in 10 years from now since they do not know how to run their company. Poor governance, poor management and poor administration will be its downfall.
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MDMercedesGuy (08-01-2016)
07-31-2016, 12:31 PM
#412
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The Tesla Model S since last year has been outselling the S Class in the United States and Western Europe.
It has been fun reading alright dispelling all the nonsense FUD trotted out against Tesla and EVs.
07-31-2016, 12:36 PM
#413
MBWorld Fanatic!
[QUOTE=absent;6874590]Please stop with this propaganda finally, I drive my cars aggressively, have a heavy foot and just can't follow the rest of the traffic like a duck.
The P90D I had for 4 days was used by me the same way and my range dropped to less then 100 miles on first day, the impressive performance is inconsistent and I could not trust the car to do the same what it did in the morning of same day.[QUOTE]
I really don't think your FUD propaganda holds any water with your claim that you actually drove a P90D so aggressively to bring the range of an almost 300 mile range P90D to 100 miles.
For those who don't drive their cars like maniacs who are a danger to themselves and others the Model S is a great choice and plus they get to leave people like you in the dust at a stop light at will.
A Model S P90DL is unbeatable to 100mph. After you go over 100 mph then it is not a matter of how quick your car is but how big of an idiot you are to risk a humongous fine and possibly jail time.
The P90D I had for 4 days was used by me the same way and my range dropped to less then 100 miles on first day, the impressive performance is inconsistent and I could not trust the car to do the same what it did in the morning of same day.[QUOTE]
I really don't think your FUD propaganda holds any water with your claim that you actually drove a P90D so aggressively to bring the range of an almost 300 mile range P90D to 100 miles.
For those who don't drive their cars like maniacs who are a danger to themselves and others the Model S is a great choice and plus they get to leave people like you in the dust at a stop light at will.
A Model S P90DL is unbeatable to 100mph. After you go over 100 mph then it is not a matter of how quick your car is but how big of an idiot you are to risk a humongous fine and possibly jail time.
07-31-2016, 01:00 PM
#414
The Camry outsells the S-class as well. Your point being?
The Mercedes S550 is by far the best luxury sedan on the market right now. I'm amazed you don't think so. It's obvious.
The Mercedes S550 is by far the best luxury sedan on the market right now. I'm amazed you don't think so. It's obvious.
Except the majority of people looking to spend around $100K for a sedan disagree with your assessment so you seem to be in the minority view that the S550 is superior to the Tesla in every way.
The Tesla Model S since last year has been outselling the S Class in the United States and Western Europe.
It has been fun reading alright dispelling all the nonsense FUD trotted out against Tesla and EVs.
The Tesla Model S since last year has been outselling the S Class in the United States and Western Europe.
It has been fun reading alright dispelling all the nonsense FUD trotted out against Tesla and EVs.
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07-31-2016, 01:20 PM
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Lots of smart people on the forum here that don't have to aspire to get the Model S and can assess how well the Tesla matches their needs.
I am all for EV's but wouldn't go this low-rent Model S because of a great drive train.
I also feel that their sales model works great for them without great benefits to the customer. If a 25% p-margin holds true, then there is $30k+ on the table un-negotiated.
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07-31-2016, 01:35 PM
#416
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For whatever reason, it seems a lot of Tesla owners are pretty passionate about the car, to the point where they want to proselytize. Though some people on the receiving end may take offense, I think it is notable, and if I didn't already own one, I'd feel the passion/proselytizing a sign that there really might be something special about the car, and it would behoove me to at least test one out if I were in the market for something in the price and size range.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
I recall a guy on a Tesla forum who started driving his Model S around Austin for Uber, I'm not sure if part time or full time, partly because he wanted to "spread the word"...giving people the experience...and some preaching.
07-31-2016, 01:35 PM
#417
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You may not recognize that virtually everyone on this forum did check out the Model S before buying the S-Class.
Lots of smart people on the forum here that don't have to aspire to get the Model S and can assess how well the Tesla matches their needs.
I am all for EV's but wouldn't go this low-rent Model S because of a great drive train.
I also feel that their sales model works great for them without great benefits to the customer. If a 25% p-margin holds true, then there is $30k+ on the table un-negotiated.
Lots of smart people on the forum here that don't have to aspire to get the Model S and can assess how well the Tesla matches their needs.
I am all for EV's but wouldn't go this low-rent Model S because of a great drive train.
I also feel that their sales model works great for them without great benefits to the customer. If a 25% p-margin holds true, then there is $30k+ on the table un-negotiated.
I went, I saw and I did not like what I saw.....
They just do not comprehend the fact that not everyone is addicted to Musk's coolaid and may have a different opinion of that product.
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MDMercedesGuy (08-01-2016)
07-31-2016, 02:01 PM
#418
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The majority of people who pay around $100K for a 4 door sedan disagree with your assessment that for around that price range the S550 is the best choice. The Tesla Model S is outselling the S Class in the same price range and offers substantially superior technology that Mercedes is still about 4-5 years away from offering in a car that benchmarks what Tesla released in 2012.
07-31-2016, 02:02 PM
#419
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07-31-2016, 02:12 PM
#420
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And when you say it performs better than an S63/S65, I would note that it is not universally true.
I occasionally drive 300 plus miles a day. Given the present state of EV technology, I would not consider taking any EV on a long trip. Next, earlier this summer I went on vacation. No EV charging station where I stayed and could not have made the trip, round trip, on one charge. For me, EV is not their yet. But if you only do local driving, EVs are the future.
07-31-2016, 02:17 PM
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If someone chooses the S65, it isn't to drive the fastest car around. For that money there is plenty faster.
You seem to lack perspective...
If you would just say "I looked at the S-Class drove it; like some things and others less so, then drove the Model S and found it was a better fit for me. Love the car"
Everyone would be happy for you no matter what you picked. But you just can't stop deriding everyone that disagrees with your choice.
This is the issue here, not the choice of cars...
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07-31-2016, 02:22 PM
#422
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hey everyone- got an idea, let's all admit to WEBSRFR that he's 100% correct and everyone else is wrong and ignorant.
Think that would put an end to this thread? Me neither!
Seriously, there is no one right vehicle. The best analogy I can think of at the moment is ice cream. Lots of different flavors. I might like vanilla best- you may like rum raisin. There is no right or wrong, there are preferences.
Think that would put an end to this thread? Me neither!
Seriously, there is no one right vehicle. The best analogy I can think of at the moment is ice cream. Lots of different flavors. I might like vanilla best- you may like rum raisin. There is no right or wrong, there are preferences.
07-31-2016, 05:35 PM
#423
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Electric and hybrid cars now make up less than 3% of new car sales in US. This is a decrease from previous years.
75% of Americans who traded in a hybrid or electric vehicle traded it for an ICE. An 11 percent increase from 2015.
Tesla has risen to number one in Norway due to large increases in both the gasoline and carbon emissions taxes. Neither of those things is going to happen in the US. As far as I know, Norway has nethier an automotive nor a large petroleum industry. The US has both.
Electric and hybrid vehicles cost significantly more than ICE versions, which is currently mitigated by state and federal tax credits. However, states are eliminating them and Congress is considering it. Takes about 10 years to break even on EV's if credits are removed.
ICE vehicles are improving in efficiency even as cost of fuel goes down.
The lower sales for sedans and premium ones is due to increased sales in the pick-up and SUV market - not a move to EV's or HV's.
75% of Americans who traded in a hybrid or electric vehicle traded it for an ICE. An 11 percent increase from 2015.
Tesla has risen to number one in Norway due to large increases in both the gasoline and carbon emissions taxes. Neither of those things is going to happen in the US. As far as I know, Norway has nethier an automotive nor a large petroleum industry. The US has both.
Electric and hybrid vehicles cost significantly more than ICE versions, which is currently mitigated by state and federal tax credits. However, states are eliminating them and Congress is considering it. Takes about 10 years to break even on EV's if credits are removed.
ICE vehicles are improving in efficiency even as cost of fuel goes down.
The lower sales for sedans and premium ones is due to increased sales in the pick-up and SUV market - not a move to EV's or HV's.
07-31-2016, 05:36 PM
#424
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I really understand what you are saying, please calm down and do not raise your blood pressure, life is good.
btw, these 2 guys in white smocks are here to help you and will take you to your new and beautiful accommodation, please don't fight them, that vest they put on you will keep you warm.......
07-31-2016, 05:43 PM
#425
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READ the charts!
The chart you keep copying does not say that people purchased an EV or HV, much less a Tesla instead of the vehicles listed where sales declined.
Not does it state that they decided to wait on the Model 3, much less that they put down a deposit on the Model 3. And AGAIN, deposits are NOT sales.
Incidentally, you do not comment on the increased sales for some of the vehicles in your chart. Tesla is not even on your chart.
EV and HV sales declined by 3% in US this past year. A year in which US auto sales rose to the highest level ever.
As for Tesla's future as an independent car company, all have failed in the past except for very, very small niche markets. The reason for failure is seldom a bad product, but rather mismanagement, selling to a market that does not really exist, inability to remain competitive in vehicles or in service of existing vehicles, etc.
If MB, BMW, GM, Ford, Tata, FCA, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, et. al. begin to really push EV's will Tesla be able to compete? Probably not.
Last edited by El Cid; 07-31-2016 at 05:56 PM.
