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One complication is the way vehicles are classified in many of these reports. The WSJ shows MB cars and light trucks about equal. Obviously most (all?) of those light trucks are actually SUV's.
Webbie still has not responded to
1. His connection to Tesla or one of its associated companies.
2. Comparison of total Tesla sales to total sales for MB, Audi, BMW, Lexus.
One negative about Tesla ownership is the unpredictability; even though it's generally in the good direction. E.g., many people now on Tesla forum is complaining that they no longer have the best car. Many of them paid 120k+ for their cars and want the most up-to-date tech but now is already outdated by the new AP hardware. So that's a negative.
They should take some solace from the fact that even a 2014 Tesla Model S is more technologically sophisticated than a 2017 S Class and has better media and navigation systems along with a much more advanced semi autonomous driving capability.
And with software updates the Tesla will get even better over time. When I get in my Tesla it already has access to my calendar and knows where I'm going.
While Mercedes makes incremental updates every year and major updates about every 7 years, Tesla makes literally dozens of enhancements to their cars every week. Some very minor some major.
So every Tesla they build is the best Tesla they can build with the available technology. This is why Tesla is so far ahead and the Mercedes CEO himself admitted it will likely take them about 9 years to catch up to Tesla.
The Tesla I drive would not be the car it is today if Tesla did not constantly improve their cars. As a Tesla customer I much prefer the Tesla approach than the legacy industry approach of not building the best car they can.
And if anyone is curious about Tesla's pace of innovation in improving their cars literally every week, take a look at this list:
One complication is the way vehicles are classified in many of these reports. The WSJ shows MB cars and light trucks about equal. Obviously most (all?) of those light trucks are actually SUV's.
Webbie still has not responded to
1. His connection to Tesla or one of its associated companies.
2. Comparison of total Tesla sales to total sales for MB, Audi, BMW, Lexus.
1. His connection to Tesla or one of its associated companies.
As I've said before I'm just a very satisfied customer. The Tesla Model S is the single most satisfying car I've ever bought. With software updates it keeps getting better. Even if I had a $million to spend I would still buy a Tesla Model S.
There is a reason Tesla does not spend money on advertising. Their products are so good they don't need to spend money on advertising.
Originally Posted by El Cid
2. Comparison of total Tesla sales to total sales for MB, Audi, BMW, Lexus.
Oh surely you realize how that is such an unreasonable comparison until Tesla is done with their growth ramp up. The only fair comparison for now is to compare the market segments based on the cost and size of the vehicle. Though some here are still in denial that the Model S is competing with and affecting S Class sales, it is obvious to anyone in the industry that the Model S and the S Class do in fact compete with each other. The Model S is now outselling the S Class in the US by almost a factor of 3.
And if you want to see how Tesla is affecting another market segment, the entry level luxury car segment, look at what the Tesla Model 3 is doing to the competition. The Tesla Model 3 will not be out until next year but just look at the bloodbath on the chart below as it is already completely decimating the competition with over 400,000+ people who have put down deposits and waiting for the Model 3 to go into production.
Thanks for the response.
The entire luxury car market with a few exceptions is taking a bloodbath. The times they are a-changing. People are moving to different types of cars, especially SUV's and even pick-ups. And some pick-ups are indeed luxury vehicles.
Also, 2015 was a banner year for the auto market, including luxury. Sales are pretty much down across the board now.
Tesla is a nice car, but still a niche market and not a replacment for ICE.
ZERO Model 3's have actually been delivered. Deposits are fully refundable just by asking for money back.
ICE vehicles will be the dominant form of transporation for my lifetime and yours.
Incidentally, gas is now $1.96 for top tier where I live.
As I've said before I'm just a very satisfied customer. The Tesla Model S is the single most satisfying car I've ever bought. With software updates it keeps getting better. Even if I had a $million to spend I would still buy a Tesla Model S.
The era of legacy combusting cars is so over.
Everybody enjoys a satisfied Tesla customer on this board.
You don't stir controversy by making statements about how happy you are with your Model S but by making outright idiotic statements about all other cars.
Consumer Reports ranks Tesla 25th in vehicle reliability. Only Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat and Ram ranked lower.
Lexus, Toyota and Buick ranked top 3. Audi, Kia, Mazda, Hyundai, Infiniti, BMW and Honda fill out the top ten.
MB ranked 17th.
Report is based on surveys submitted by 500,000 CR readers. These are the same readers who have consistently ranked Tesla number one in vehicle satisfaction. Which shows that "satisfaction" is a vague concept and has no relationship to quality, dependability or reliability of vehicles.
Consumer Reports ranks Tesla 25th in vehicle reliability. Only Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat and Ram ranked lower.
Lexus, Toyota and Buick ranked top 3. Audi, Kia, Mazda, Hyundai, Infiniti, BMW and Honda fill out the top ten.
MB ranked 17th.
Report is based on surveys submitted by 500,000 CR readers. These are the same readers who have consistently ranked Tesla number one in vehicle satisfaction. Which shows that "satisfaction" is a vague concept and has no relationship to quality, dependability or reliability of vehicles.
Don't forget that same survey had Mercedes below average as well. The big hit was due to the Model X which was so complicated to build several US and German CEOs actually proclaimed the Model X was a concept car and could not actually be built in mass volumes.
Just about all the initial Model X issues, especially pertaining to the falcon wing doors have already been resolved. Production has ramped up significantly. Let's see how this survey looks next year. Mercedes has been building cars for a century and even they have a hard time getting the initial production year right sometimes.
The key takeaway from this survey as it pertains to the Model S though is that the survey has revealed that just about all the initial Model S issues have now been resolved and the Model S is back on the list of Consumer Reports recommended models.
I expect the Model X to be a similar situation next year.
Incidentally the Model S now ranks *above the S Class in reliability. And in terms of customer satisfaction the Model S remains not just above the S Class but above any other car available to buy.
Spin it anyway you want to, but Tesla is 25th in reliabilty based on ratings from Tesla owners. While the Model X may be the biggest problem, the brand is 25th and that includes the Model S.
This also does not bode well at all for the Model 3
Surprised you admitted that there are problems with any Tesla product, especially the Model S.
Incidentally I am very disappointed in MB's ranking, but it is 4 up from last year. MB is not "The Best or Nothing," but Tesla is no better.
There is nothing to spin. When all you have are two models and you just introduced a vehicle so difficult to make that the auto industry pretty much proclaimed that vehicle could not even be built it is not surprising to have some initial issues. What matters is what they have done to address those issues. The initial Model X door issues have mostly been addressed at this point.
Both Mercedes and Tesla rank below average in rankings for reliability. So they both have work to do.
In the meantime the Tesla Model S ranks higher than the S Class in reliability.
There is nothing to spin. When all you have are two models and you just introduced a vehicle so difficult to make that the auto industry pretty much proclaimed that vehicle could not even be built it is not surprising to have some initial issues. What matters is what they have done to address those issues. The initial Model X door issues have mostly been addressed at this point.
Both Mercedes and Tesla rank below average in rankings for reliability. So they both have work to do.
In the meantime the Tesla Model S ranks higher than the S Class in reliability.
There is nothing to spin??
Every word you type is a spin.
What about your charts I mentioned to you above? You are misrepresenting the S Class sales numbers. You must have changed the numbers before posting since the referenced article is different than your misrepresented sales numbers.
Why are you lying?
Also, please show your source documents for the Model S ranking higher in reliability please.
WEBSRFR is worse than politicians is spinning things.
He states that Tesla Model S ranks higher than the S Class in reliability. WEBSRFR is the spin monster.
In 2014 Consumer Reports rated both the S Class and Model S as poor in reliability. The most recent rankings show that Tesla moved up in the rankings because CR did a new review on Tesla but not on the S Class. For the S Class CR is using "predicted reliability" to show that the Model S is better in reliability.
With that said, I have owned a 2014 and a 2016 S Class with a couple of quality issues such as the replacement of the seat due to leather in the seat separating at the seams in the 2014. The 2016 S Class with about 14 months of ownership has had ZERO issues.
If WEBSRFR would stop "selling" Tesla cars and objectively analyze the two cars maybe I would get off his back. But WEBSRFR is clearly working for Tesla.
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Tesla has fought incredibly hard for media sources to consider the Model S a full-size luxury sedan, for one simple reason: Its sales numbers aren’t as impressive if you compare it to more accurate rivals. As I mentioned above, Tesla sold 9,156 units of the Model S during the last quarter. In the same time period, Mercedes-Benz sold 14,672 units of the E-Class. Meanwhile, the 5 Series sold 7,430 units of an aging model nearing replacement. When a redesigned 5 Series last debuted, as it will again in the next few months, it wasn’t uncommon to see sales totals well in excess of 5,000 per month — or 15,000 per quarter. Even the Hyundai Genesis is nipping at the Model S’s heels, earning around 2,500 sales per month through 2016.
Model S rear leg room: 35.4 inches
BMW 5 Series rear leg room: 35.3 inches
BMW 7 Series rear leg room: 44.4 inches
Likewise,
Mercedes E-Class rear leg room: 35.8 inches
Mercedes S-Class rear leg room: 43.0 inches
The Model S doesn’t compete with S-Class and 7 Series any way you slice it.
All the same, the issue isn’t strictly black and white. Take pricing, for example. The cheapest Model S one can buy is the Model S 60 which starts at $66,000. However, it’s no secret that the average sales price of a Model S is much higher as customers tend to gravitate towards more expensive variants.
So when DeMuro points out that that the respective base price for a Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7-Series is $97,600 and $82,500, it’s not necessarily a straight-forward comparison. The cheapest Model S is certainly priced like a mid-size luxury sedan, but most Tesla buyers are spending large luxury sedan money when purchasing their cars.
I don’t think there’s a clear-cut way to categorise the Model S as there are valid arguments on both sides of the debate. Still, given how much adoration Tesla tends to receive, it’s fascinating to see a thoroughly well-researched piece that seeks to take out some of the wind from Tesla’s vibrant sails.
The E Class has more sales than the Model S, in the USA and in Europe, so that should be better than both the Model S and the S Class, right?
You aren't taking into comparison global sales. The main market for the model s is the USA, so why not compare it to the S Class' main market, in China, where 3/4 of S Class' are sold.
Last year, 107,336 S Class' were sold, and in 2014, that figure was 107,277 cars. There has not been a decrease in S Class sales as you have been saying 24/7. The highest vin for a Model S as of 31st December 2016 was 123,905, showing the S Class sales in 2014 and 2015 still annihilated sales of the Model S from 2012/13/14/15 and probably even 2016 if they do 15,000 sales per year, albeit they haven't got as many dealerships.
WEBSRFR: You try to attribute ALL Tesla reliability issues to the Model X and it just ain't so. There have also been issues with the Model S and in fact it was rated worse than average until this past year.It has risen to average. And that is by Tesla owners.
Disregarding the EV and gimmikry aspects of the Tesla, it really would be more accurate to compare it to mid-size luxury or premium cars.
WEBSRFR: You try to attribute ALL Tesla reliability issues to the Model X and it just ain't so. There have also been issues with the Model S and in fact it was rated worse than average until this past year.It has risen to average. And that is by Tesla owners.
Disregarding the EV and gimmikry aspects of the Tesla, it really would be more accurate to compare it to mid-size luxury or premium cars.
I never said that I attribute all issues to the Model X. It is obvious that Tesla's current overall reliability has a lot to do with the initial Model X rollout. This is obviously the case as they have increased their Model S reliability to be back on the list of Consumer Reports recommended models.
In fact the Model S reliability ranking is currently higher than the S Class.
Let us agree to disagree that the Model S competes in the same market segment as for the S Class and the 7 series -- vehicles that comprise of large 4 door flagship sedans in the $100K price range that weight about 5,000 lbs. In fact the Model S is wider than an S Class.
Just about every news outlet and the automotive industry media considers the Model S to be in the same market segment as the S Class. We certainly bought our Tesla over an S Class. But feel free to be in denial that since the Tesla Model S came out Mercedes and in fact the entire segment has been losing market share to Tesla.
As I said earlier this report was based on rear leg room. Which is true. Other than that the Model S and the S Class weigh about the same, cost about the same, and are large 4 door flagship sedans. Anyone who buys a Model S, like we did, could have very well have bought an S Class instead.
Tesla is obviously affecting the entire segment. As while the segment has grown 20% overall, The S Class market share is down 42% while Tesla Model S market share is up 59% quarter over quarter in the US. The Model S is now outselling the S Class by almost 3X in the US.
While we can agree to disagree on this IMHO anyone who believes the two vehicles do not compete is in denial.
Where did you get the "doctored" chart? I am guessing you are a Tesla employee/contractor since the doctored and actual chart I posted are internal documents to Tesla but my chart was from a Bloomberg Article quoting the source as an internal Tesla document.
Just remember whatever the tabloid headline says the S Class reliability numbers are worse than the reliability figures for the Tesla Model S. So if you think the Tesla Model S numbers are junk, that makes the S Class reliability figures worse than junk.
In other words, people who throw stones, meet the glass house you live in
Just remember whatever the tabloid headline says the S Class reliability numbers are worse than the reliability figures for the Tesla Model S. So if you think the Tesla Model S numbers are junk, that makes the S Class reliability figures worse than junk.
In other words, people who throw stones, meet the glass house you live in
Oh so you have the updated numbers for the S Class? Please post them since the Model S is based on updated numbers.
WEBSRFR: Figured it out. You are having buyer's remorse over purchase of a Tesla and are in super defensive mode.
And the autoblog article tends to substantiate that the Model S is a luxury mid-size vehicle, but probably overpriced compared to its competition. In 2007, the Hyundai Azera was classified as a large, premium car by some sources. Classified as large by all.
WEBSRFR: re-read the NYP article with blinders removed. It primarily focused on the Model X, while adding that the Model S has had issues. Therefore your comment re: S Class being worse junk than Model S is invalid. The article and Consumer Reports report were about Tesla reliability as a brand - which does not bode well at all for the Model 3.
10-21-2016, 03:05 PM
