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(On a serious note though, looks like a defect on certain cars, I wonder if there is a recall, hopefully)
Compare to the infamous Lexus sticky dash problem:
Similar leather dash curling on an LS600h:
And here is the leather dash wrinkling on a 221:
The reality of the issue with that leather dash is, leather isn't a great material for a dash...if keeping a long time I would opt for the MBTex dash...
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Originally Posted by SW20S
Compare to the infamous Lexus sticky dash problem:
Similar leather dash curling on an LS600h:
And here is the leather dash wrinkling on a 221:
The reality of the issue with that leather dash is, leather isn't a great material for a dash...if keeping a long time I would opt for the MBTex dash...
Ya that could be it, leather hates UV light. I guess some sort of tinting (if legal) of the windshield would had prevented this.
../.. the 2011-2013 models used the same 4.7L Bi-turbo used in the 2014-2017 W222, which arguably is just as reliable or more so than the 4.0 Bi-turbo in the later models. ../..
@DaveW68 , I am just curious, why do you think the 4.7L is more reliable than the new 4.0 Bi-turbo? Is it more like a predication, or is it true based on facts/data? I am not an expert, but I had both, and have had zero issues with both engines but non of them is considered high-mileage.
My experience:
I loved the 4.7L, muscularly engine
I love the 4.0L too; but I hate the 4-cylinder deactivation in the 4.0, but I coded that, and the new engine feels much smoother than 4.7L which fits my driving style.
I have no preference between the two, but I always hear the 4.0 is an upgrade compared to the 4.7, and should yield better reliability with the improved materials and design. You seem to have a different view so wanted to hear more from you on this topic. Thanks.
@DaveW68 , I am just curious, why do you think the 4.7L is more reliable than the new 4.0 Bi-turbo? Is it more like a predication, or is it true based on facts/data? I am not an expert, but I had both, and have had zero issues with both engines but non of them is considered high-mileage.
My experience:
I loved the 4.7L, muscularly engine
I love the 4.0L too; but I hate the 4-cylinder deactivation in the 4.0, but I coded that, and the new engine feels much smoother than 4.7L which fits my driving style.
I have no preference between the two, but I always hear the 4.0 is an upgrade compared to the 4.7, and should yield better reliability with the improved materials and design. You seem to have a different view so wanted to hear more from you on this topic. Thanks.
The M278 4.7L has a host of serious problems at higher mileage. Read this site to learn more. The M17x is too new to make high mileage statements. One emerging issue with the 4.0 M17x is plugged vapor separators which cause crankcase over pressure and failed rear main crankshaft oil seal. The only preemptive action identified so far is to replace the separators in the 30k-50k mileage range. They are cheap plastic boxes but require significant labor time to replace.
@DaveW68 , I am just curious, why do you think the 4.7L is more reliable than the new 4.0 Bi-turbo? Is it more like a predication, or is it true based on facts/data? I am not an expert, but I had both, and have had zero issues with both engines but non of them is considered high-mileage.
My experience:
I loved the 4.7L, muscularly engine
I love the 4.0L too; but I hate the 4-cylinder deactivation in the 4.0, but I coded that, and the new engine feels much smoother than 4.7L which fits my driving style.
I have no preference between the two, but I always hear the 4.0 is an upgrade compared to the 4.7, and should yield better reliability with the improved materials and design. You seem to have a different view so wanted to hear more from you on this topic. Thanks.
According to my SA who's been with MB for almost 40 years, shorter term reliability seems to be similar, but the cost of repairs on the 4.0 engine is significantly higher than the 4.7, especially when there are turbo issues. The engine has to be almost completely disassembled to get to the turbos since they are inboard on the 4.0L, instead of outside the engine like on the 4.7L. The 4.0 turbos are smaller and put out more boost than the 4.7, which means they are likely to fail much sooner due to higher pressure and more heat, especially being inboard. I can hardly imagine the amount of blown turbos there are on higher mileage S63 and E63 cars with the 4.0L engines.
My 2007 S600 had an in-service date of February 16, 2006 with a mfr date of 1-06. I highly doubt it was the first W221 put into production. Look at the numbers again and try to use a little common sense. I'll give you 90% for 2006 sales as being W221's (probably higher), especially with the steep drop off from the prior year as almost nobody wanted the W220 any more. Then look at the 2010 to 2013 sales. All very consistent. So "maybe" 35-40% of the sales from 2013 were W222 models, especially since sales didn't start until late Sept and assuming an up-tick for the new model. That would be consistent with 2014 & 2015 MY sales. It's close and consistent with S class US sales for both models, but the W221 out-sold the W222 slightly. The W221 was a HUGE improvement from the W220 in all aspects. The W222 definitely exceeds the W221 in technology, but as far as build quality and materials used, it was a cost cutting down-grade. Kind of like going from the W140 to the W220. Which gets back to my original point.
Have a nice day.
I can remember the first time I sat in a W221 at the Dayton car show and how impressed I was with the quality of the interior. It did feel like a true luxury car.
According to my SA who's been with MB for almost 40 years, shorter term reliability seems to be similar, but the cost of repairs on the 4.0 engine is significantly higher than the 4.7, especially when there are turbo issues. The engine has to be almost completely disassembled to get to the turbos since they are inboard on the 4.0L, instead of outside the engine like on the 4.7L. The 4.0 turbos are smaller and put out more boost than the 4.7, which means they are likely to fail much sooner due to higher pressure and more heat, especially being inboard. I can hardly imagine the amount of blown turbos there are on higher mileage S63 and E63 cars with the 4.0L engines.
As a soft driver who hardly ever floor his vehicles, I don't see any of that being alarming to me. If it's only about the turbos and the labor needed to get them out in case of failure, the engine itself still appears to be an upgrade though....Anyway, as you said, not enough data points yet to make conclusions, including those on the turbo.
FWIW, my Mercedes mechanic says he feels the M176 engine is a big reliability upgrade, in fact he is shopping for an S560 himself. Bear in mind the M177 engine in the AMG cars are slightly different. They are hand built vs assembly line built like the M176, and they are tuned to make more power which puts additional stress on the turbos which run with more boost, also have different manifolds etc. Issues found in the M177 engine don't translate into potential issues with the M176 engine, as per my mechanic.
Look at all of the beautiful wood & leather and high-quality switchgear throughout. I miss that stuff.
I Just don't see it. The W222 has a full leather stitched dash at that option level too and also has beautiful wood, that light colored burlwood looks so outdated. Plastic vents, at least the vents in the W222 have real metal trim.
I think the bulk of your issue is your W221 was a much higher spec than your W222. If your W222 was the same spec I think you would like it more. Its hard to downgrade in spec.
Every surface of this interior is leather, as is the exclusive napa below it
I Just don't see it. The W222 has a full leather stitched dash at that option level too and also has beautiful wood, that light colored burlwood looks so outdated. Plastic vents, at least the vents in the W222 have real metal trim.
I think the bulk of your issue is your W221 was a much higher spec than your W222. If your W222 was the same spec I think you would like it more. Its hard to downgrade in spec.
Every surface of this interior is leather, as is the exclusive napa below it
Oy vey!!! Either all you do is love to argue or you're just not very bright. You do realize....don't you, that there were multiple shades of wood and leather available in the W221, just like in the W222, right? Also, stitched leather on the doors and seats were standard by 2009 on the S600 & S65, and optional on the other models, just like the W222. The entire interior, other than carpet, wood, and switches were wrapped in exclusive Napa and had an Alcantara headliner going back to the 2007. It was just a better put together car than the W222. The vents in the W221 were all aluminum. In the W222 they are 100% plastic, along with all switches. MB completely cheapened the interior of the W222. But they put lipstick on a pig by adding fancier lighting and big screens on the dash. The W222 would be such a nicer car if they didn't cheap-out on the materials used. The W221 felt like a Bentley. The W222 feels more like a Honda Accord than a Bentley. The W222 just does not exude world class quality like the previous model.
Oy vey!!! Either all you do is love to argue or you're just not very bright. You do realize....don't you, that there were multiple shades of wood and leather available in the W221, just like in the W222, right? Also, stitched leather on the doors and seats were standard by 2009 on the S600 & S65, and optional on the other models, just like the W222. The entire interior, other than carpet, wood, and switches were wrapped in exclusive Napa and had an Alcantara headliner going back to the 2007. It was just a better put together car than the W222. The vents in the W221 were all aluminum. In the W222 they are 100% plastic, along with all switches. MB completely cheapened the interior of the W222. But they put lipstick on a pig by adding fancier lighting and big screens on the dash. The W222 would be such a nicer car if they didn't cheap-out on the materials used. The W221 felt like a Bentley. The W222 feels more like a Honda Accord than a Bentley. The W222 just does not exude world class quality like the previous model.
I just totally don't understand where you're coming from. A Honda Accord? Thats absurd. You say there are all these material differences...where? Everywhere that was covered in leather in your 221 is covered in leather in the 222 if it is optioned like your 221 was. My air vents are metal, the whole vent is not metal, but the edges where you touch are metal. Did that change between the pre refresh and refresh 222? I don't think so.
The vent circled here is not metal, it is plastic. Maybe those center vents are metal, I don't remember but I don't think so. This picture is what most W221s looked like, that dash is a sea of unstsitched rubberized plastic. Your 221 was a 600 with all the interior upgrades, your 550 is not comparable.
I just totally don't understand where you're coming from. A Honda Accord? Thats absurd. You say there are all these material differences...where? Everywhere that was covered in leather in your 221 is covered in leather in the 222 if it is optioned like your 221 was. My air vents are metal, the whole vent is not metal, but the edges where you touch are metal. Did that change between the pre refresh and refresh 222? I don't think so.
The vent circled here is not metal, it is plastic. Maybe those center vents are metal, I don't remember but I don't think so. This picture is what most W221s looked like, that dash is a sea of unstsitched rubberized plastic. Your 221 was a 600 with all the interior upgrades, your 550 is not comparable.
I think you're just trolling here, personally.
I owned a W221 for over 3 years. You didn't. I'll give you that those 2 outer front dash vents were plastic. I forgot about those. But the center vents, along with all of the switches, including doors, lights, center stack, and all rear switches are 100% metal. This was true even in the lowly S550. And there was stitching all over the dash, doors, center console, steering wheel, using the same dash materials as what are used in the W222. How nice of you to pick a screen shot of arguably the ugliest interior color option in a S550 of that era. That peanut butter color was hideous.
Your climate vents are all plastic, not metal. They may look like metal, but they are chromed plastic. Get a clue!
Funny you call me a troll. I was thinking the exact some thing about you.
I owned a W221 for over 3 years. You didn't. I'll give you that those 2 outer front dash vents were plastic. I forgot about those. But the center vents, along with all of the switches, including doors, lights, center stack, and all rear switches are 100% metal. This was true even in the lowly S550. And there was stitching all over the dash, doors, center console, steering wheel, using the same dash materials as what are used in the W222. How nice of you to pick a screen shot of arguably the ugliest interior color option in a S550 of that era. That peanut butter color was hideous.
Your climate vents are all plastic, not metal. They may look like metal, but they are chromed plastic. Get a clue!
Funny you call me a troll. I was thinking the exact some thing about you.
There was stitched material on your S600, but not on an ordinary S550...look at the picture I posted, thee is no stitched material there. That center area had a metal front, but it wasn't a metal part, its a plastic part...I bet the vent fins in the center were plastic.
The edges of the vents are metal, not plastic...you can feel the coldness of the metal. The vents themselves are plastic...which they are also on the 222.
Your metal center vent area:
Is this broken metal or broken plastic? Cheap plastic vents like everybody else has:
221 window switch...not metal:
Why do you have to be so rude? Because I continually prove you wrong? Sorry for that. If you dislike this car so much, why do you own it? If you feel a Lexus is nicer inside...go get one...
There was stitched material on your S600, but not on an ordinary S550...look at the picture I posted, thee is no stitched material there. That center area had a metal front, but it wasn't a metal part, its a plastic part...I bet the vent fins in the center were plastic.
The edges of the vents are metal, not plastic...you can feel the coldness of the metal. The vents themselves are plastic...which they are also on the 222.
Your metal center vent area:
Is this broken metal or broken plastic? Cheap plastic vents like everybody else has:
Why do you have to be so rude? Because I continually prove you wrong? Sorry for that. If you dislike this car so much, why do you own it? If you feel a Lexus is nicer inside...go get one...
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I've only proven you wrong over and over again. Go look at a W221 in person and touch the materials and you'll see what I'm talking about. The only error I've made was the 2 outer vents. Otherwise I've been 100% spot on. As previously mentioned, I've owned one. You haven't. And I have a buddy who purchased a S550 new in 2012 and kept it for 10 years. A damn fine automobile, even for a lowly 550.
You still don't get it. I'm not arguing about the design of the interior of the W222 and the fact that it is more modern than a car that came out 17 years ago. I like the interior design better than the W221, that's why I purchased this car. I'm just saying that MB no longer builds a car with bank vault solidity and quality materials like they did with the W221. It seems like that car was the end of an era for MB.
Edit: Those were not the same vents and window switches as I had in my W221.
Go look at a W221 in person and touch the materials and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I have done so, many times...and like I said I completely disagree with you.
You still don't get it. I'm not arguing about the design of the interior of the W222 and the fact that it is more modern than a car that came out 17 years ago. I like the interior design better than the W221, that's why I purchased this car.
Actually you said exactly that:
Originally Posted by DaveW68
The 222 design is definitely not better than the 221.
To the OP, I'm sorry this thread turned into such a cluster f#ck with me and Mr Know-it-all. I'm ending the argument with him right here as it appears he can go on forever proving that he doesn't have a clue about the previous model.
While waiting for my groceries pick up, I had some time to take a closer look at my S560 W222, took some pictures, and I must say that I couldn't find any evidence that suggests cheapening of the car compared to its predecessor. Although I never owned older S-class generations myself, I spent a considerable amount of time in my father's car and even drove it several times.
I would also like to point out that there are some valid reasons for an invalid baseline when comparing the S600 W221 to the S560 W222. The difference in the quality of materials and finishing can be significant when you opt for the highest trim level and leather. In my experience, having owned both a W222 with Nappa leather and my current S560 with much more options and and the Designo Semi-aniline interior, there is a noticeable difference in the feel of luxury and premium quality. While it's the same car, this one feels way more upscale.
In my opinion, the attention to detail and premium feel of the W222 is unmatched by older gens. It's possible that different trim levels could impact someone's opinion, but overall, the materials used feel premium and luxurious throughout. It's hard to imagine how older generations could measure up to the standards of the W222. My point is, it's important to note that comparing a fully-equipped S600 W221 to a less-equipped W222 lead to different "maybe deceiving" perceptions, so I there is not a yes/no question.
Thought that it might be interesting to hear from owners who have driven over 50000 miles with no major issues, other than routine maintenance.
Daily driver, heavily optioned 2016 S550 4MATIC, since new. 142k miles currently. Routine maintenance and normal wear and tear items. All recommended maintenance done as scheduled. Nothing else so far. Will keep indefinitely to see how far it can go. I understand that eventually there will be AIRMATIC replacements, etc. but as long as the engine and transmission holds up, I’ll keep driving it. Average about 30-35k/year driving.
03-27-2023, 09:18 PM
