Nico9182349

So my family has had Mercedes for over 60 years by now. Starting with my grandpa in the 60ies. My dad always drove Mercedes as well. So basically I inherited the love for the brand.

I currently have a C140 CL500 1998 and a W222 S560 4matic 2018 as my daily.

The C140 is an incredible car. Albeit complex for its time it is mechanically incredibly robust if taken care of. The only acute issue I ever had was a broken ignition coil. When my W222 was in the shop with a broken AC I was going up Slovenian mountains at 38C (100F) with the CL and it didn't even flinch. The built quality of the interior is spectacular as well, I'm not sure if even designo leather would get you the same thickness of leather in modern models. The car feels heavy, sure, but it feels like a vault. It needs a little more gas than my modern car but not much really. The car has run 108.000 miles now. It is very quiet, even though not quieter than the W222.

The W222...well. It had so much issues I am ashamed to even list them all. I bought it at 45.000 miles from Mercedes as a certified used car ("Junge Sterne"). When I took delivery of the car I noticed a broken AC, the panoramic sunroof broke the same day, I am not kidding. Then I had a more detailed look at the car to find out if it was a lemon. There was no track record of unexpected repairs before I took ownership. But the list of issues just kept growing. To get the AC fixed was an absolute odyssey, the car was at Mercedes I think 6 times over a timespan of 12 months? After the initial issues were "fixed" the stationary heating broke. My personal highlight was a broken belt buckle. The belt buckle is really an issue I'd expect in an early 90ies Kia or something. What remains were some more obscure issues, like a whistling sunroof above 125mph - and yes, this is actually an issue when you have the Autobahn . I sure do like the looks of the car though, inside and outside. I think it will be considered a good design for many years to come. The features are great, the power is great etc. but the doors, seats etc. just dont match the W140 in my opinion. Sure, I understand that weight saving was a priority with the W222 but I can't help but think that cutting costs is actually the most important factor in every newer Mercedes model.

I know I know, the tone of this post is "Everything was better in the past" but in terms of build quality with Mercedes I really honestly think so. What do others think? And - is there something better out there for the price tag? I imagine Bentley or RR might give you the quality feeling I'm looking for but RR is far out of range. Bentley maybe if I stretch the budget for a used one but then it is VW under the hood. Which I really dont like. Same goes for the Porsche Panamera where I hear good things about the build quality but I'm a big guy, not sure if that care isn't too small for me.

chassis

Bentley Flying Spur
Genesis G90
BMW 7er

MB is a brand riddled with problems in many ways as you mentioned. There are other options available.

bishop64

If I am presented with a brand new perfect 1998 W140/C140 (transported by a time machine to 2023) and a brand new perfect 2018 W222 (again transported from 2018 to 2023) , I will pick the later anytime of the day. Absolutely no doubt. 20-year progress simply is too much and significant enough to make the choice obvious. The 2 cars are three generations apart!

However, the tale of your twin cars is different. I reckon your relatively bad experience of your particular W222 might just cloud your judgment of 'old vs new' MB cars.
I suppose, your W222 was either a 'lemon' to begin with or it was simply abused by the previous owner (1st owner?).
And I am surprised that your car is MB CPO but still exhibited so many problems. That dealership needs some real spanking on his rear. A "Young Star" MB should have been thoroughly inspected and repaired to a problem-free status. I guess, since a "Young Star'' car carries a 24-month warranty, the dealer might have just skipped the prior examination process and sold the car to you, counting on your bringing back the car to him for fixing if a problem arose?

Buying an used car simply has a higher probability to getting a 'lemon'. Even, as evident in your case, a MB CPO is no guarantee. And I even dare to say, even buying a brand new car is still not 100% fool proof. The chance of having a 'lemon' car slipped by the quality control is still there, no matter how statistically small it is. But, if the financial is OK, it is still the better way to buy a new car in this regard.

Regardless, kudos to you for keeping your 1998 C140 in tip-top condition.

Nico9182349

I mean, one of the reasons I wanted a newer one was actually safety features I must admit. Like you said, three generations in between. And as much as W140 fans like to call it a tank - it was developed in the 80ies.


Previous owner was a 76 year old guy who had his own horse racing team, haha. Like I said though, the service history looked super clean. I could not possibly agree more with you on the dealership. It's a huge MB franchisor in Northern Germany. They have 8 branches or something. Believe me, I raised as much hell as I could and it was all resolved but it was no fun and it took ages. Also I have to say, when I asked my hometown dealership whether these issues are common with the W222 they said "We only see them for inspections usually". So I am aware that my issues are quite out of the ordinary but as they are so plentiful it can't be me!!!

Mechanically it is in great condition. It was reimported from Florida though...which shows on the leather and finish, but I plan on having that taken care of in the future. Here's a picture of it

Very rare configuration, even rarer in Europe, only saw that same color combination online once more. It was some guy in the US.

Nico9182349

Care to share more? I have thought about the 7 series but when I checked out the previous generation, before they went huge grill, I was not impressed with the build quality. The W221 was better at the time.

The Genesis G90 we dont get here and while I have seen the raving reviews in US media, I am not convinced. Open to check it out though.

Bentley Flying Spur would be a hefty budget stretch but I am curious.

Does anyone know about Lexus? I remember that even my dad used to say they are incredible build quality but I have no idea about the recent models. Pretty nutty design wise. Haha. There are I think less than 200 LS500 registered in all of Germany currently. It's incredibly rare. Not sure if I have ever seen one. Also I think they are small in the interior.

Quenthel

Many here agree that older Mercedes were more robust, on one hand because Benz would over-engineer their reliability parts before they started cost cutting, on the other hand, the newer cars have way more technology, steadily miniaturised and the fault rate naturally increases. Given the choice, i wouldn't go with an older car, I'm too used to the niceties of my S560 to drive let's say, a W140 as a daily or for long trips.

But in this case, you're simply unlucky, you got a lemon (and a very tart one at that, too). People here comment on the (american) CPO programme, and how it's not trustworthy by itself, I would wager the same is true for JS. In short, when buying a car, trust nobody but your technician, to whom you get the car to do a pre-purchase inspection, every, single, time.

Don't give up on the S-class, but get this effin' thing back to the seller as fast as possible and go for a different one, one that will be inspected by a technician of your choosing, ideally not close to the dealership.

Nico9182349

Did both for about three years. Now it is a nice weather car. Believe me, you are underestimating it. In terms of what really counts, which is the seats and ride comfort imo, it was so far ahead of its time, it still holds up really well. I even prefer the steering on the W140 cause it is ultra smooth. Some might say muted but I'd love to have a setting like that in the new one. I'd take it over most modern Mercedes models below the S-Class. Most examples won't be in such good shape that you can tell though. haha...

All very true, returning it is not an option anymore though and it is fine now. Just took way too much hassle to get it there.

DaveW68

I absolutely agree with you. They don't build them like they used to. Lots of cost cutting went on from the W221 to the W222. I got into an argument with a "know-it-all never wrong in his own mind" guy about this subject exactly in this thread. Funny that I'm the guy that can make a rational judgment on the subject as I have actually owned both cars and had them as my daily drivers. The "know-it-all" has never owned a W221.

Know-it-all guy thread

Nico9182349

I never owned a W221 myself but we had three in the family. One pre facelift, two facelift models and I drove them quite a bit. I too do recall a much more solid feel as far interior quality goes. Leather was already not great but everything felt heavier. And they were actually factually heavier cars. My W222 clocks in at just 4400lbs (SWB, standard seat config in back). Which seems crazy for such a big car with a V8. My C140 weights 450lbs more than that!

MBNUT1

You know I don't get this "lemon" expression. Like how does a car uniquely have multiple problems? Is this like every component has a probability of failure and some cars just happen to have that stacked up. Seems statistically unlikely unless the probability of each of the failed components is relatively high.

MBNUT1

So Nico, I have personal experience with the brand for over 60 years. First 15 during my fathers ownership the remaining during my own.

I think the answer is a mixed bag.

Absolutely cars are no longer hand built like our earliest Mercedes and the materials are not as high of quality. No metal chrome with ivory steering wheel, solid wood on the dash.

On the other hand the engineering and manufacturing of the cars has progressed during that same period. Back then the reason my dad bought a Mercedes is that it was the only car that one could expect to make it to 100k miles without needing an engine overhaul Todays cars are for sure safer, more fuel efficient, handle better and in general last longer.

My 2010 W212 E3504matic with nearly 150K miles is still a very nice car. Quiet, barely uses any oil between oil changes, more fuel efficient, has more power handles and rides pretty well, looks pretty good for a car its age and is safer than cars from years ago. I have had to have the transfer case and front differential replaced, seat cover, the wood is fading for the second time. the second blower motor is starting to make noise.

This car was $60K new. If you had to buy a C140 today it would likely be around $200K for the same car. So while I am not suggesting that the W212 and the C140 are in the same class, the reality is that you get a lot more car for the money than you did back then.

Nico9182349

agreed, it seems so unlikely unless it had a major accident or something. But isn’t there even a lemon law in the US?

Nico9182349

You are presenting an interesting and valid take I suppose. Actually the C140 was already 168.000 DM base price when it came out so I think it might be even more than 200k if you wanted the same quality today. I mean the last S-Class Coupe started at 120.000 Euro I think? And that has the current quality!

MBNUT1

I started to suggest that it would be more than $200K US as you suggest but didn't want to overstate my point. MSRP for a no option '95 S500 coupe was $92.4K, which translates to $182.4K in 2023 dollars but then you have to add options and I agree that you would have to add to get the same material and build quality today.

S_W222

It is noteworthy to observe the evolution of manufacturing processes in recent times but you have to take a deep dive into it to fully understand the value of recent changes . As a former&current BMW owner beside my Benz, I have personally witnessed the changes in the production methods employed by BMW more closely, while also keeping an eye on MBenz. However, it is undeniable that Mercedes-Benz users have been enjoying a superior experience compared to BMW users recently. The automotive industry as a whole has shifted its focus towards a more modern and efficient approach to manufacturing vehicles.

Also worth noting to say that the use of new "cheaper*" materials and technologies in modern vehicles does not necessarily translate to a decrease in reliability or longevity. For instance, the use of synthetic leather in some modern cars has been shown to last longer than natural leather used in older models. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to attribute any decline in reputation of the brand to the "cheapening" of materials. I think that's the right thing to do, cheaper but better design choices.

The shift towards modern manufacturing processes in the automotive industry has resulted in various benefits such as increased efficiency, improved performance, and enhanced safety features. While Mbenz and other brands may have faced some challenges in adapting to these changes, Mbenz continues to strive towards delivering exceptional high-quality products to its customers in my view.

vinflouen

My uncle had a beautiful 1988 420 SEL that blew a cylinder at 20k miles.
Some cars have crappy build.
Ihave a w220 that was very well taken care of and runs great.
I also have a 2019 s560 and mine is superb in quality.
The Benz’s from back then had no need for marketing, if you owned one, you knew it was a very well made machine.
Now its about marketing.
But ive never had many issues with my Benz’s, they run like clocks.
I also maintain them like a hawk.

C280 Sport

Sometimes you just get a bad one. I had a W202 and everyone praised that car for being a solid reliable car but mine was nothing but a junk box. Sold it after just 20,000 miles of ownership. The W222 is a very fine car and very well made and feels very solid. You got a bad one. Find another W222 or let the warranty take care of it.

BenzV12

I had heard that W126s had a better built quality over W140s . I have not driven any W140 at all but W222 feels more quality over W221 . At least , it's what W222 gives it to me or makes me feel that way . Mercedes-Benz makes tons of vehicles , the others you mentioned like RR makes a "handful" compared to Mercedes-Benz . Believe or not RR is not a trouble free car either .
Build quality of an S Class is excellent to me and definitely feels like an extraordinary car when you drive or be a passenger. Panoramic sunroof issues can happen at any car regardless of brand

JohnLane

OP your 140 car is a dinosaur compared with a 221 or 222 car.

They have been improved in every way; starting with stiffness of the chassis.... driving dynamics, power, brakes, technology, aerodynamics, fuel economy.... you get the point.

I owned a ‘96 S-600, a 221 S-65 and now a 222 S-65. Every new car is a quantum leap forward.

Hope MB got your 222 car fixed up well. I also hope you had the good sense to get one with Bermester sound and ABC. Enjoy it.

Sean._.S

Owning a C126 and a W222, I can definitely say the "oldie" is much more solid, overall, than the w222. The only issues I've encountered on my W222 have been front lower control arms & an ABC pump. 0 issues on my 245,000 mile C126... Engine internals look brand new

JohnLane

Though things like window switches that fail, window motors and regulators, Vacuum actuators in the doors and trunk, HVAC control heads, the flexible chassis in the 126, first generation ABS that made for longer stops then I could easily manage via modulation of braking, caps and ***** for steering, audio that had only just retired vacuum tubes. How’s about that fabulous four speed box that starts in second unless you really mean it!
I don’t miss hearing the windshield moving around every time I pull in to park in the garage. Yes; that is what you are hearing. Sure got to fix an awful lot of all of the above in 126 cars.

I’ve had none zero zip nadda failures with any of those features + the plethora of additional things that just work without having to think about in my 221 or 222 cars. Notable exception being when the ‘Voice control module’ went down and took the rest of the network (audio) with it in the 221. Easily rectified once I sniffed it out.

Nico9182349

Jup, but dinosaurs rule!

Burmester yes but I prefer all wheel drive where I live, so no ABC for me.

Sean._.S

Window-switches, & regulators fail on quite literally any vehicle after years of use- not isolated to the 126 platform. The vacuum actuators are easily diagnosable AND fixable- The hundreds of electric modules in a W222 are easily diagnosable but not fixable without spending thousands. The slow 4 speed tranny can and will outlast the 7 speed found in the FL 221 & PF 222. The speakers, when rewired properly with modern equipment, sound extremely clear & provide an almost equivalent experience to the base burmester (surprised me too). With a sub, just as much bass. I never experienced a moving windshield noise in any of my 6 126 platform vehicles. I would be worried if the W221/W222 platform would have any issues considering how new it is. The 126 is a 40 y/o platform. Overall though, the 126 is a worse car by a long shot. That being said, It has character & a classic luxury driving experience no modern mercedes can replicate. I appreciate and understand your viewpoint.

will_atl

I love my W222, sorry to hear you have had a rough time of it. Regarding the Porsche, I’ve had a Cayenne (considering another)? And a friend had a 2014 Panamera Turbo S, I only rode in it a couple of times, and it was a great car. For size reference, last time I was in it, there were 4 of us, and at 6’2” and over 200 lbs, I was the smallest. We all had plenty of room, I presume that the newer ones are the same. One thing to note about Porsche, is that while they offer packages, the original purchaser can specify pretty much what they want a la carte. By this I mean that it there are certain features that you want, finding the right one may take twine digging. For example, my Cayenne had a package, but also had Active Cruise Control and Blind Spot/Lane Change Assist, which were not a part of any package.