ejohansson

2014 W222 Burmester 3D High End- but I suspect that this topic would apply to other years...and even the base Burmester. I do not have the executive rear seat package that includes the 3.5mm inputs.

I've been struggling to get audiophile-quality audio out of the aforementioned system, and concluded that the root cause may be the sound source and the cars input capabilities.

Running wireless android auto - Qobuz with the 24 bit / 192 Khz sample tracks. AA is accomplished through the Unavi system (which I highly recommend). It would seem that the UNAVI system is outputting a analog signal audio after it's processes with it's internal DAC (may be AA DAC, which is lossless), but then the analog is getting re-converted to digital via a 3.5mm to USB adapter - which is connected to the car's USB media input. This is not ideal, especially because I don't know for certain what the DACs are in these devices. Further, by feeding it digitally back into the car's USB port, the CAR has to use it's DAC to get it back to audio. My belief is that the car's DAC is only capable of 44Khz sample rates (based on the file formats and sample rate requirements for .mp3, etc described in the MB user guide.)

So, at the end of the day, it seems like I'm getting, at best, a 44Khz sample rate.

If the car had an 3.5mm (or other analog) input, I could control the sample rate by using an external DAC that I know can handle 192Khz sample rates.

Questions for group:
1) Does anyone know of a resource that shows the technical description of Burmester High End system (or COMMAND, if it's handing the DAC.)
2) Any thoughts about a way to add an analog input?
3) UNAVI is sending me an upgraded model (for free) of their new system - that connects audio via BLUETOOTH. This may help, but I'll need to test what the sample rate conversion through their DAC is. If they use native bluetooth, I may be able to send it lossless if I can control the compression it's using.

Thank you in advance.

Eric

TripleDown

I am interested to hear where this goes. I can hear the difference in quality using CDs in the dash vs Spotify via BT into Command system.

Wish we could play DVD-A surround discs here ...huge omission by MB imho. They are stunning in my 2012 LS460 Levinson system.

carlosinseattle

I'm also VERY interested in hearing what you find out. I have a 2018 with the 3D system. When listening to Sirius XM, the sound is far better than the same song on Spotify. I've even trid local HD radio, and that also sounds better than Spotify. I'm using a premium Spotify account with settings to get highest resolution available. The difference between Sisius XM and Spotify is begger in the car than it is in my home theater.

VII

To get your desired quality audio connect a USB drive directly into the system.

Also the audio signal is sent digitally from head unit to the external amplifier, using an analog source is unlikely to help.

XM is highly compressed low bit rate not sure how your Spotify can sound worse.

kafklatsch

I am also interested in this. I am an audiophile myself; however, I have given up on MB in its attempt to satisfy the discerning ear fully. They try, but they fall short by not completing the high-end throughput in the full audio chain of components, as you have pointed out.

I am relegated to the stationary ESLs at home to satisfy the ear....and a compromise when driving with MB.

maybe you can figure out how to get a something close to 192khz... 96 would likely be good enough..

please keep us "tuned" in

ejohansson

You've hit the nail on the head, here. I had the Levinson in my 2012 Genesis - it was OUTSTANDING...but it would play DVD-A's

VII

So the normal w222 does not have a dvd player anymore?
Even the E class command used to play dvds

ejohansson

So, what evidence do you have that the Burmester amp is a digital AMP? That would be unusual. To be clear, it WOULD NOT be unusual to get an analog line-level (preamp) input to an AMP.

If the USB port sends a digital signal to the Burmester AMP, then the Burmester must have an internal DAC (at some point, the signal has to get to analog).

I agree XM ('satellite') quality will suck due to the compression applied to the signal. However, my original post was about high bit rate streaming (Qobuz, specifically, but Tidal HD, Spotify HD, Amazon Music HD, or any other service of the like would be truly high bit rate.)

TripleDown

It will play a DVD but DVD-Audio is a different disc type with different licensing. My guess is MB didn't want to pay it, or maybe the licenses for hardware players were just NLA at that time.

You can play a regular DVD in the unit for what it's worth....

VII

The audio is sent from the head unit to the separate amplifier through MOST (an optical link).

Welcome to automotive audio in the last 2 decades.

ejohansson

Yes, it plays DVD's, but the max encoding rate of a regular DVD is 48Khz. (DVD-A is not supported, sadly, as it has the requisite quality.)

ejohansson

Yes, MOST refers to the transmission of data from head unit to the amp. So, then, do you know what DAC the Burmester High End is using? Presumably, the USB input would also be sent across MOST, but the fact that the car will only decode 16 bit 44Khz sampled files tells me that there may be no hope - short of replacing the whole system.

TripleDown

All that said above, more than one friend of mine has thanked me for ruining their car stereo for them ;-). Fed a nice clean bit of music over BT, it's still pretty amazing. We can only dream of what could have been with SACD, DVD-AUDIO or newer BT lossless codecs.

superpop

The Burmester standard and HE both do all signal processing within the head unit, the HE also has mics in the cabin that listen to the audio and adjust the audio on the fly. The only real way to get better audio out of the HE system or the standard for that matter is to replace everything beyond the head unit. NAV-TV and Mobridge both make a post processed line converter that intercepts the MOST feed at the factory amp and provide either RCA or Toslink flat signals. From here you would want to invest in a few high end amplifiers and also a new front soundstage and possibly an aftermarket sub. On the HE there is actually a factory 8" sub that you could also upgrade and use the enclosure that is in place for a stealth look. Once you have all of this, (Probably 10K for a decent set up) then you could properly tune the DSP either in the amps, or prior to the amps to overcome the inherent issues with the factory set up. It will sound a 1000 times better but it is expensive. I did this on my last S Class and it was as loud and sonically correct as anything I have ever heard. I have not done this with my current S63 with the HE setup as I am still not sure how the mics in the car would react to this scenario, plus it is a lot of work as I do all my own installs.

The bottom line is, you cannot correct for the input weaknesses, so you have to brute force correct on the amplified side with a proper tune and a lot of work and money. If you do find something that magically cleans up the inputs and makes them hotter, I am all ears. I also agree with Carlos that the same songs on XM sound much better than apple car play over USB, particularly at higher volumes.

Mitch Alsup

You are using a source that has 120Db signal to noise ratio in an environment with less than 70Db signal to noise.
There is nothing you can do about the loss of those 50Db. ...

However, I find my 2015 3D system to have a characteristic of 1990s JBL sound quality--tinny and over boosted Bass. I turned 3DB out of both treble and Bass on the controls and that is about as good as the system actually is.

My home system still uses vinyl records, VPI turntable, moving coil phono pickup, Audio Research amplification, and Electrostatic speakers with a Velodyne 15" Bass speaker to cover the 12Hz to 60 Hz range the electrostatic speakers do not reach in a room that measures 20'-wide and 53'-long.

No car audio system can realistically be called High Fidelity--and for a long list of reasons--cabin size being the most limiting, followed closely by the audible sound distortions of the head unit trying to make up for the lousy interior acoustics. You can hear it if you listen closely enough.

2012 merc amg

I have a 2018 222 with 3d audio so no cd/dvd player but I have found the best sound input to be a wireless Apple CarPlay adapter (android system) play through the google music app. It seems to sound better than Apple Music or Spotify or Pandora. I’ve also found streaming the Google music over the Bluetooth produces some decent sound more flat and less bass heavy vs the usb input wireless car play dongle. For the wireless CarPlay dongle I use the auto sky unit from Amazon. Around 60 dollars.

ejohansson

Impressive knowledge. Clearly, having done all of the work yourself, you have detailed knowledge of the system!

I believe I follow what you are saying, but just to be clear...the factory head unit does all signal processing (i.e. .MP3 decoding, etc), and sends a digital signal over MOST to the amp via fiber connection. (Since I know TOSLINK is digital, I presume that MOST is also digital. Further, TOSLINK is lossless, so I presume MOST is capable of lossless audio.)

As you point out, an adapter can be purchased to intercept the digital signal from the head unit and reroute it to another amplifier...I presume fiber optically.

So, is there an adapter that will create a second "input" into the Burmester HE amp? (I see optical couplers online that take two inputs and merge into 1, but they are TOSLINK) So, to be clear, it would pass *through* the signal from the head unit, but ALSO allow for another signal to be passed as well. My thought is that if this were possible, then an external DAC could be used to feed the factory amp a higher bit rate signal than the head unit is capable of producing.

ejohansson

I hear what you are saying, I expected someone to point this out. You are correct, an automobile isn't ever going to be an audiophile grade experience on the road.

I think what's got a lot of people unhappy is that we have heard better (i.e. the Lexicon system referenced above.) We are just looking to maximize (what we can) of the Burmester HE system.

I'm curious on your tuning of the B.HE - I agree wholeheartedly about the treble being very tinny. Like ear bleeding tinny. Likewise, I tune that down -3 in the EQ. As for the bass, I find it lacking, and tune it to +3.

(I'm listening primarily to classic rock.)

What DSP setting do you use (Pure, Chill, Live, Surround, 3d Surround)?

I've tested them, and settled on Live...but, it seems that only Surround and 3d Surround utilize the 23 speakers in the system...so I feel like I'm 'wasting' elements of the system.

2012 merc amg

Yes live sounds the best. I always have mine on live. Try google music. I can’t see putting any more money into the system it already was a 6400 dollar upgrade option when the car was new. It’s not great but it’s better than the standard system.

ejohansson

Another thought on this...further to my comments about a 2 in 1 input MOST connector...assuming that no such device exists...

The signals coming out of the Burmester HE are analog to speakers, correct?

What If I purchased a second Burmester HE amp, fed it a MOST signal from an external, high bit rate audio source, and then purchased another wiring harness out and spliced it into the wiring harness coming out of the factory Burmester HE amp handling all of the head unit signals?

Would this create an impedance issue with the factory speakers?

superpop

See above for responses.

superpop

Signals coming out of the Burmester HE Amp are all analog to the speakers with the exception of a secondary Sub Amp that drives the optional HE 8" trunk mounted Sub. On your second question, I think the feedback mics in the car would be problematic, you would also have signals from the chimes, NAV and other sounds that the factory head unit feeds to the primary amp tripping over the second amp. The Burmester HE system is a very closed loop system and I have found that introducing anything externally causes unintended issues. The simplest and safest route to improvement is replacement of the Burmester HE amp with a MOST adapter and aftermarket DSP and Amps. You also have to do something about the factory speakers as even in the HE system they are crap speakers. This method keeps everything as factory correct as possible including the Chimes, NAV, Cell Phone Audio etc.

TripleDown

I did some reading on this today to try and find an aptX BT USB receiver. I found plenty of the reverse, designed to send sound from laptops and pc's to high quality BT headphones. But the ones that did "2-way" so we can send higher quality BT Bitstreams into the system appear to be limited in that direction.

Anyone found a working solution? I'd like to try one and i will be happy to share my findings.

NbyNW

What key speakers would you replace? They're all over the cabin. And I'd be worried with removing panels and creating rattles or squeaks. Think I'd rather have basic speakers than create new problems. Do these panels go back together with no issues?

NbyNW

This basically what I do. My SD card is loaded with .m4a music files, 44.1, so CD quality. Sounds good.

On my iPhone I download in the highest quality available - high res lossless or lossless for whatever format the song is available. Hardwired to the car for Apple Car Play. Seems to work well and it sounds good.

I would think hardwire is better than BT. Hands free would be nice but I'd rather have better sound over that convenience. I'm not ready to dig into the car for major upgrades.