SW20S

Here's my thread on the subject which has screenshots of the work order and parts etc.

https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...sket-leak.html

Note this is not a common failure on this engine, the M177 and M178 are more common but this is the first one in an M176 the dealer has ever seen.

MBNUT1

This is what that video was warning people about on the M176.

carlosinseattle

I try to keep things practical, not hypothetical. In the "real world" with normal use you're always putting greater stress on every component. A heavier vehicle is what it is, heavier. My S63 burns more gas at 15% throttle than a Prius at wide open throttle. How do I know??? I have both and see the mpg's. In addition to that, the amount of rotating mass that the engine has to endure affects wear and tear. You might not realize that there are literally thousands of tiny explosions happening each second. All that energy has to be turned into rotation, that's why ICE are super ineffecient. All the heat, sound, light, etc. is a big waste, and the car is working hard to get rid of all that waste. Again, bigger engine, heavier car will ALWAYS cause more wear and tear. You can live in denial if you want, but physics doesn't have an opinion.

SW20S

His video is for all the M17X engines. When asked the mechanic who made that video also said he has not seen one go on the M176.

MBNUT1

Part of his point was if you have to replace one on the hot V you have to remove a bunch of parts unlike say my car which your invoice bears out. Replacing valve cover gaskets is usually a fairly easy and cheap repair. I've done it a bunch of times. $9k to do it is just stunning.

Mitch Alsup

If what you state is true, then why do you only have to take 300 RPM off an race engine that lasts 4 hours to make it last 24 hours ??

MBNUT1

Not necessarily. Sure if you upsized the pistons but didn't upside the bearings then the bearings would see more wear but that isn't how things are designed. Small or large engines are designed based on material properties ie stresses. So in theory every thing just gets bigger which is a problem in itself from an efficiency standpoint but doesn't mean that its necessarily going to wear out sooner.

Baltistyle

Even after reading the invoice I’m stunned at the cost because I don’t see three grand in parts need nor thousands in labor. Having done my own vc gaskets on other amgs, and Lexus and Toyota 100 series for under a hundred bucks and a few hours of time, these types of poor engineering are disturbing. Having all of those other tasks in the way doesn’t add much time at all for a pro imo. Even me *****ing about sealing breathers with crap mb sealant multiple times even with long *** waits doesn’t compare. I personally would not have wanted it resealed with the mb sealant which is always cause for multiple repairs of the same item if not left to sit for a week in a humidity and temp controlled area before use. I get sealant vs rubber but I’ve receive two bad tubes of mb sealant which wasted days of my life so I won’t use it anymore. I could never pay someone to use that sealant. (Unless under warranty) That is likely the reason we will see more failures, separators or pcv clogs, a little extra pressure, and the weak sealant fails. I’ve seen this on multiple low mileage engine parts where this sealant is used like breathers and timing covers or cam covers. Im a fan of diy of older cars and these types of repairs completely remove them from my want list. They are such beautiful cars. Im happy to fix anything but stupid, and Mercedes has become brain dead it seems.

Keep those extended warranties flowing!

carlosinseattle

I don't know what that means. Racing engines constantly vary RPM's. If what you're saying is that they reduce their max RPM's by 300, then you're making my point, every piston stroke counts.

carlosinseattle

You're making my point for me. More rotating mass requires upgraded bearings to accomodate the additional mass. The point is these engines are very high performance engines. We're asking them to do a lot, far more than what was even imaginable at the turn of the century.

If I could sum it up one way I'd say these cars are miraculous at delivering what they deliver. In order to accomplish that, they're are operating at a much higher level than in the past That applies, to engineering, materials, assembly, components, operating envelopes, etc. Maybe I'm jsut different, but I believe these cars are awesome, I don't expect to get the best for nothing. It's a disservice for me to tell somebody they should expect Camry level operational cost with an S-Class. Funny thing is we all this applies to petty much everything else in life, why should cars be any different?

SW20S

That would be obvious...the hot V has tradeoffs and benefits.

Dealer is only going to reseal with the MB sealant. This was under warranty, had it not been under warranty I would have used my independent mechanic. This is not a car I'm going to keep forever, it will never be out of warranty so I'm not worried about it.

They had the car for 8 days, the book time is 24 hours so regardless of how many hours it takes thats what they are going to bill. The parts come in a kit from MB apparently.

If you want DIY, this is a DIYable job if you know what you're doing its just a big job.

Mitch Alsup

Yes, but wear (=stress) is so greatly reduced by going from a 7,300 RedLine to a 7,000 red line that the life of the engine improves by 500% (6×).
The engine in question is 1990 Jaguar XJR-12. They used 7,300 RL for sprint races, and 7,000 RL for endurance races.

This is entirely in line with my quadratic statement above (which I got from a book about building race engines; and one you disagreed with.)

The point is::
a) if you are always banging the engine off the redline, engine life is reduced.
b) if all you do is cruise down the interstate at 2.500 RPMs the life of the engine is essentially infinite with good maintenance.
c) the drive chooses how long the engine lives
d) so does maintenance.

Mitch Alsup

While most of the hot-V engines make great power;
Their problems and heavy maintenance makes me question the whole architecture.

I certainly would not want one. Heck, I did not even "want" the turbos in my S-600.

Lou B

Mitch, I'm with you - but there don't seem to be many of us posting here. AMG power supporters are very vocal here, as you know if you're reading those post when you're here.

MBNUT1

Just so you are aware your 2018 has a hot V.

Lou B

Didn't know, don't care.

SW20S

It’s the best placement for turbos. Otherwise replacing the turbo is a huge job. Having to replace a turbo is more common than having that gasket failure I had.

Having become used to turbo power I don’t want to go back to N.A. power.

W205C43PFL

I heard the "Hot V" setup also decreases turbo lag.

Mitch Alsup

My using more than 50-100 HP happens so seldom, it is irrelevant to me.

Lou B

How do you know how much HP you are using?

chassis

@Mitch Alsup What heavy maintenance do you refer to?

Mitch Alsup

For example::

https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervie...4D1D&FORM=VIRE

BMW N63 Engine Problems - Causes and Solutions (bmwtuning.co)

chassis

Please dumb it down for us. What happened?

In your own words, what is the 25-words-or-less summary of the N63 heavy maintenance?

Mitch Alsup

Why would anyone want something glowing at 2,000ºF 2 inches from the pain on your hood ??

Is that dumb enough for you ??

MBNUT1

Your perspective is based on renting cars rather than owning them for the long term.