Looking to prepare for a new car in the future
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From: Maryland
2024 S580
Here's my thread on the subject which has screenshots of the work order and parts etc.
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...sket-leak.html
Note this is not a common failure on this engine, the M177 and M178 are more common but this is the first one in an M176 the dealer has ever seen.
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...sket-leak.html
Note this is not a common failure on this engine, the M177 and M178 are more common but this is the first one in an M176 the dealer has ever seen.
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2010 E350 4Matic
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I want to disagree with the ALWAYS.
If you only use 50 HP of a 500 HP engine, you are putting so little stress on the engine that it having 500 HP is irrelevant.
Stress is quadratic WRT RPM and linear WRT cylinder pressure,
Full throttle at ½ redline is ¼ the stress of full throttle at redline.
Redline at ½ throttle is ½ the stress of full throttle at redline.
There are other parameters, too::
Redline when the oil is at 220ºF is a lot less stress than redline when the oil is at 270ºF.
water temps
transmission temps
differential temps
...
Stress is based on how YOU drive the car.
If you only use 50 HP of a 500 HP engine, you are putting so little stress on the engine that it having 500 HP is irrelevant.
Stress is quadratic WRT RPM and linear WRT cylinder pressure,
Full throttle at ½ redline is ¼ the stress of full throttle at redline.
Redline at ½ throttle is ½ the stress of full throttle at redline.
There are other parameters, too::
Redline when the oil is at 220ºF is a lot less stress than redline when the oil is at 270ºF.
water temps
transmission temps
differential temps
...
Stress is based on how YOU drive the car.
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From: Maryland
2024 S580
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2010 E350 4Matic
Part of his point was if you have to replace one on the hot V you have to remove a bunch of parts unlike say my car which your invoice bears out. Replacing valve cover gaskets is usually a fairly easy and cheap repair. I've done it a bunch of times. $9k to do it is just stunning.
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S600
I try to keep things practical, not hypothetical. In the "real world" with normal use you're always putting greater stress on every component. A heavier vehicle is what it is, heavier. My S63 burns more gas at 15% throttle than a Prius at wide open throttle. How do I know??? I have both and see the mpg's. In addition to that, the amount of rotating mass that the engine has to endure affects wear and tear. You might not realize that there are literally thousands of tiny explosions happening each second. All that energy has to be turned into rotation, that's why ICE are super ineffecient. All the heat, sound, light, etc. is a big waste, and the car is working hard to get rid of all that waste. Again, bigger engine, heavier car will ALWAYS cause more wear and tear. You can live in denial if you want, but physics doesn't have an opinion.
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From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
I try to keep things practical, not hypothetical. In the "real world" with normal use you're always putting greater stress on every component. A heavier vehicle is what it is, heavier. My S63 burns more gas at 15% throttle than a Prius at wide open throttle. How do I know??? I have both and see the mpg's. In addition to that, the amount of rotating mass that the engine has to endure affects wear and tear. You might not realize that there are literally thousands of tiny explosions happening each second. All that energy has to be turned into rotation, that's why ICE are super ineffecient. All the heat, sound, light, etc. is a big waste, and the car is working hard to get rid of all that waste. Again, bigger engine, heavier car will ALWAYS cause more wear and tear. You can live in denial if you want, but physics doesn't have an opinion.
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From: Baltimore County, MD
'13 s212 63 p30. '06 LX470
Part of his point was if you have to replace one on the hot V you have to remove a bunch of parts unlike say my car which your invoice bears out. Replacing valve cover gaskets is usually a fairly easy and cheap repair. I've done it a bunch of times. $9k to do it is just stunning.
Keep those extended warranties flowing!
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I don't know what that means. Racing engines constantly vary RPM's. If what you're saying is that they reduce their max RPM's by 300, then you're making my point, every piston stroke counts.
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
Not necessarily. Sure if you upsized the pistons but didn't upside the bearings then the bearings would see more wear but that isn't how things are designed. Small or large engines are designed based on material properties ie stresses. So in theory every thing just gets bigger which is a problem in itself from an efficiency standpoint but doesn't mean that its necessarily going to wear out sooner.
If I could sum it up one way I'd say these cars are miraculous at delivering what they deliver. In order to accomplish that, they're are operating at a much higher level than in the past That applies, to engineering, materials, assembly, components, operating envelopes, etc. Maybe I'm jsut different, but I believe these cars are awesome, I don't expect to get the best for nothing. It's a disservice for me to tell somebody they should expect Camry level operational cost with an S-Class. Funny thing is we all this applies to petty much everything else in life, why should cars be any different?
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From: Maryland
2024 S580
Part of his point was if you have to replace one on the hot V you have to remove a bunch of parts unlike say my car which your invoice bears out. Replacing valve cover gaskets is usually a fairly easy and cheap repair. I've done it a bunch of times. $9k to do it is just stunning.
Even after reading the invoice I’m stunned at the cost because I don’t see three grand in parts need nor thousands in labor. Having done my own vc gaskets on other amgs, and Lexus and Toyota 100 series for under a hundred bucks and a few hours of time, these types of poor engineering are disturbing. Having all of those other tasks in the way doesn’t add much time at all for a pro imo. Even me *****ing about sealing breathers with crap mb sealant multiple times even with long *** waits doesn’t compare. I personally would not have wanted it resealed with the mb sealant which is always cause for multiple repairs of the same item if not left to sit for a week in a humidity and temp controlled area before use. I get sealant vs rubber but I’ve receive two bad tubes of mb sealant which wasted days of my life so I won’t use it anymore. I could never pay someone to use that sealant. (Unless under warranty) That is likely the reason we will see more failures, separators or pcv clogs, a little extra pressure, and the weak sealant fails. I’ve seen this on multiple low mileage engine parts where this sealant is used like breathers and timing covers or cam covers. Im a fan of diy of older cars and these types of repairs completely remove them from my want list. They are such beautiful cars. Im happy to fix anything but stupid, and Mercedes has become brain dead it seems.
Keep those extended warranties flowing!
Keep those extended warranties flowing!
They had the car for 8 days, the book time is 24 hours so regardless of how many hours it takes thats what they are going to bill. The parts come in a kit from MB apparently.
If you want DIY, this is a DIYable job if you know what you're doing its just a big job.
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S600
The engine in question is 1990 Jaguar XJR-12. They used 7,300 RL for sprint races, and 7,000 RL for endurance races.
This is entirely in line with my quadratic statement above (which I got from a book about building race engines; and one you disagreed with.)
The point is::
a) if you are always banging the engine off the redline, engine life is reduced.
b) if all you do is cruise down the interstate at 2.500 RPMs the life of the engine is essentially infinite with good maintenance.
c) the drive chooses how long the engine lives
d) so does maintenance.
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S600
While most of the hot-V engines make great power;
Their problems and heavy maintenance makes me question the whole architecture.
I certainly would not want one. Heck, I did not even "want" the turbos in my S-600.
Their problems and heavy maintenance makes me question the whole architecture.
I certainly would not want one. Heck, I did not even "want" the turbos in my S-600.
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From: Maysville, KY , est'd 1767
Mercedes S560
Mitch, I'm with you - but there don't seem to be many of us posting here. AMG power supporters are very vocal here, as you know if you're reading those post when you're here.
Last edited by Lou B; Jun 21, 2024 at 05:53 PM.
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2010 E350 4Matic
MBWorld Fanatic!
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2024 S580
Having become used to turbo power I don’t want to go back to N.A. power.
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I heard the "Hot V" setup also decreases turbo lag.
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2017 GLE350 4MATIC
MBWorld Fanatic!
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S600
@Mitch Alsup What heavy maintenance do you refer to?
https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervie...4D1D&FORM=VIRE
BMW N63 Engine Problems - Causes and Solutions (bmwtuning.co)
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In your own words, what is the 25-words-or-less summary of the N63 heavy maintenance?
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From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
Your perspective is based on renting cars rather than owning them for the long term.
