No demand for the S63?
05-10-2007, 01:19 AM
#26
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You may think whatever you want, but the 600 is directly competing against the AMG model. It's been cannibilizing AMG sales since the beginning and it will continue to do so. There is nothing unique or special about a V8, no matter how big. Big V8s have been around for a very long time. As for high reving V8 with "monster" torque you realize the 63 has less than the 55k it replaced and the 600 has ~100 more torque than even the 55k. The 63 is outclassed by the 600. Here in the US HP sells cars, handling is not even an afterthought. Turns? What are those?
You ever talk to an AMG owner, a new one and not a long time enthusiast? They went in and wanted the fastest. They went in not having a clue what AMG was or that it even existed. I did, when I went to the dealership all I knew was I wanted this model of Mercedes and I wanted the fastest one they made. So I bought an AMG. Had no idea what it was, so do other new owners if you talk to them. You think people bought M3s because it was an M? M5, they buy it because it says M or because it has a 500HP V10? You think it would be as appealing if it had a 500HP V8? Doubtful. The extra cylinders give you bragging rights, it seems more exotic. That's what people want, the flash. The V12 has more flash and appeal and hint of exoticness than a V8 could ever hope to have. Thats right, people are shallow. People will pick a hemi over a standard V8 because it says Hemi. They'll pick the V10 over the V8 because it's a V10. They'll pick the V12 over any of them because it's a V12 and it sounds "cooler" than saying I have a V8. And the Joneses next door will be jealous because they they don't have something cool like a V12 and AMG means nothing to them. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters to the majority of people.
I'm on my 4th AMG car. I'll be straight honest with you. If I was given the choice between an E63 and an E600 it wouldn't even be a contest. V12 TT, hell yes!
You ever talk to an AMG owner, a new one and not a long time enthusiast? They went in and wanted the fastest. They went in not having a clue what AMG was or that it even existed. I did, when I went to the dealership all I knew was I wanted this model of Mercedes and I wanted the fastest one they made. So I bought an AMG. Had no idea what it was, so do other new owners if you talk to them. You think people bought M3s because it was an M? M5, they buy it because it says M or because it has a 500HP V10? You think it would be as appealing if it had a 500HP V8? Doubtful. The extra cylinders give you bragging rights, it seems more exotic. That's what people want, the flash. The V12 has more flash and appeal and hint of exoticness than a V8 could ever hope to have. Thats right, people are shallow. People will pick a hemi over a standard V8 because it says Hemi. They'll pick the V10 over the V8 because it's a V10. They'll pick the V12 over any of them because it's a V12 and it sounds "cooler" than saying I have a V8. And the Joneses next door will be jealous because they they don't have something cool like a V12 and AMG means nothing to them. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters to the majority of people.
I'm on my 4th AMG car. I'll be straight honest with you. If I was given the choice between an E63 and an E600 it wouldn't even be a contest. V12 TT, hell yes!
Who cares if the S63 is outclassed by the S600? The S600 is supposed to sit higher than the S63 because it is the flagship model, i.e. the top of the line under the S65 that is. I have never seen so much written about nothing. The S63 will be seen on the streets this summer like any other S-Class.
Again, if anyone here has the breakout for S-Class sales showing where the S600 it taking AMG sales I'd love to see it. Especially for the W220 S-Class since the S55 and S600 were sold side by side for the 2001-2006 model years.
Your theory on the S63 vs. S600 assumes that everyone is cluess about the differences between these two cars, that simply is a ridiculous assumption, IMO.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 05-10-2007 at 01:23 AM.
05-10-2007, 01:25 AM
#27
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..........I think the obsession with anything with an AMG badge is causing some people not to be open minded. The mere fact we are discussing this on this board is an indication that indeed, there are people who don't think the S63 is a better car than the S600. The typical response of course from the other camp is....those that prefer S600 just don't understand or appreciate AMG. You have S500, S550 with AMG package, S600, S63, S65. You don't have to be wise man to see that somewhere in there the S63 is lost. Many will either buy the S550 or the S65. The S63 even with an AMg badge will suffer in sales especially if the S600 gets an AMG appearance package. Hence the answer to your question as to why the AMG treatment is available for the 550 not the S600. But don't expect anyone that prefers anything with an AMG badge to agree with you. Even if MB adds an S64AMG with V6 and an S62AMG with a 4 cylinder engine into the mix, they still won't see why a car enthusiast might prefer the S600. It will be AMG all the way, nomatter what.
Ted
Ted
M
05-10-2007, 11:56 AM
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The best evidence that there are real buyers for the S63 is all of us .... there are plenty of people waiting around and on wait lists, yet there are plenty of S600's avail every day at your local dealer. I drove the 600 and liked it, just don't like the look .... If the S600 were avail with the body kit I would have thought hard about it (but only to save time, would still take an S63 if avail)
05-10-2007, 03:12 PM
#30
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S600TT, R350
This debate about depreciation of AMG models misses one big point.
80% of MB and 95% of all AMGs are leased.
Even people who have the means to write the check, they rarely do it. The car is a write-off on their expenses.
Even if they do finance one, unless you are keeping the car past 6 years, lease will be cheaper - because MB Financial subsidizes leases to move the cars.
80% of MB and 95% of all AMGs are leased.
Even people who have the means to write the check, they rarely do it. The car is a write-off on their expenses.
Even if they do finance one, unless you are keeping the car past 6 years, lease will be cheaper - because MB Financial subsidizes leases to move the cars.
05-10-2007, 06:53 PM
#31
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image and perception...
albeit without numbers to back this up, i believe that next to ferrrari, MB is perhaps the most recognizable and desirable luxury and super-luxury auto brand. people typically want to drape themselves in the image of the brand.
AMG is the most desirable MB "option."
people gravitate toward the AMGs because their appearance is persuasive.
we tend to judge by the numbers. higher numbers are associated with success and accomplishment.
more cylinders are associated with greater things. more cylinders on an AMG is associated with even greater things.
what more is there to say?
AMG is the most desirable MB "option."
people gravitate toward the AMGs because their appearance is persuasive.
we tend to judge by the numbers. higher numbers are associated with success and accomplishment.
more cylinders are associated with greater things. more cylinders on an AMG is associated with even greater things.
what more is there to say?
05-14-2007, 01:55 AM
#32
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If that is the case there there is only one S-Class that matters, it will cut out all the BS and bickering and slam the lid shut on all the prestige, cost, styling arguments......get a S65 AMG an call it a day, month, and year!
M
M
05-14-2007, 01:10 PM
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Unless you have some sales numbers you're just talking nonsense here. To say there is nothing special about a V8 tells me you have no clue about AMG's V8. What kills me is that all this about a V12 and Mercedes' V12 is the simplest design going, 3-valves per cylinders, SOHC, and twin turbos. The new AMG V8 makes the V12 look (to those who actually know anything about engines) like an antique. Nothing could be more simplistic and clueless than just picking the V12 because "everyone has a V8" and because "there is nothing special about it". That is just plain ignorant of the facts about AMG's V8. You're getting arguably the best V8 in the world in the 63 cars, enthusiasts, you know people who actually have an inkling about what they're buying at least, care about this.
Who cares if the S63 is outclassed by the S600? The S600 is supposed to sit higher than the S63 because it is the flagship model, i.e. the top of the line under the S65 that is. I have never seen so much written about nothing. The S63 will be seen on the streets this summer like any other S-Class.
Again, if anyone here has the breakout for S-Class sales showing where the S600 it taking AMG sales I'd love to see it. Especially for the W220 S-Class since the S55 and S600 were sold side by side for the 2001-2006 model years.
Your theory on the S63 vs. S600 assumes that everyone is cluess about the differences between these two cars, that simply is a ridiculous assumption, IMO.
M
Who cares if the S63 is outclassed by the S600? The S600 is supposed to sit higher than the S63 because it is the flagship model, i.e. the top of the line under the S65 that is. I have never seen so much written about nothing. The S63 will be seen on the streets this summer like any other S-Class.
Again, if anyone here has the breakout for S-Class sales showing where the S600 it taking AMG sales I'd love to see it. Especially for the W220 S-Class since the S55 and S600 were sold side by side for the 2001-2006 model years.
Your theory on the S63 vs. S600 assumes that everyone is cluess about the differences between these two cars, that simply is a ridiculous assumption, IMO.
M
Who cares that the S63 is outclassed by the S 600? I do, for one. Heck, I am even bothered that the S600 is outclassed by the S65, even though it is loaded with more standard features, when you look at it in detail. Truth is, in the S-Class hierarchy, a V12 will always sit higher.
Last edited by Ferri; 05-14-2007 at 01:12 PM.
05-14-2007, 02:41 PM
#34
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Germancar, you may be overly harsh with this gentleman's comment. In fact, I agree with much of it. I personally know people who have acquired the latest S65, and they refer to it simply as the V12 model.
Who cares that the S63 is outclassed by the S 600? I do, for one. Heck, I am even bothered that the S600 is outclassed by the S65, even though it is loaded with more standard features, when you look at it in detail. Truth is, in the S-Class hierarchy, a V12 will always sit higher.
Who cares that the S63 is outclassed by the S 600? I do, for one. Heck, I am even bothered that the S600 is outclassed by the S65, even though it is loaded with more standard features, when you look at it in detail. Truth is, in the S-Class hierarchy, a V12 will always sit higher.
05-14-2007, 03:05 PM
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2011 Hyundai Elantra GLS
"Bothered" may be too strong a word. What I mean is the S65 is close to 33% more expensive than the S600 ($200G fully leaded, vs around $150 for the S600). So, I need to pay 50 more to have the top prestige, while giving away some 600-exclusive niceties.
05-14-2007, 05:20 PM
#36
Unless you have some sales numbers you're just talking nonsense here. To say there is nothing special about a V8 tells me you have no clue about AMG's V8. What kills me is that all this about a V12 and Mercedes' V12 is the simplest design going, 3-valves per cylinders, SOHC, and twin turbos. The new AMG V8 makes the V12 look (to those who actually know anything about engines) like an antique. Nothing could be more simplistic and clueless than just picking the V12 because "everyone has a V8" and because "there is nothing special about it". That is just plain ignorant of the facts about AMG's V8. You're getting arguably the best V8 in the world in the 63 cars, enthusiasts, you know people who actually have an inkling about what they're buying at least, care about this.
Who cares if the S63 is outclassed by the S600? The S600 is supposed to sit higher than the S63 because it is the flagship model, i.e. the top of the line under the S65 that is. I have never seen so much written about nothing. The S63 will be seen on the streets this summer like any other S-Class.
Again, if anyone here has the breakout for S-Class sales showing where the S600 it taking AMG sales I'd love to see it. Especially for the W220 S-Class since the S55 and S600 were sold side by side for the 2001-2006 model years.
Your theory on the S63 vs. S600 assumes that everyone is cluess about the differences between these two cars, that simply is a ridiculous assumption, IMO.
M
Who cares if the S63 is outclassed by the S600? The S600 is supposed to sit higher than the S63 because it is the flagship model, i.e. the top of the line under the S65 that is. I have never seen so much written about nothing. The S63 will be seen on the streets this summer like any other S-Class.
Again, if anyone here has the breakout for S-Class sales showing where the S600 it taking AMG sales I'd love to see it. Especially for the W220 S-Class since the S55 and S600 were sold side by side for the 2001-2006 model years.
Your theory on the S63 vs. S600 assumes that everyone is cluess about the differences between these two cars, that simply is a ridiculous assumption, IMO.
M
...........some your posts makes me wonder where you live. If you live in North America and you never heard of would be buyers debating between the W220 S55 or the S600, then you are not listening. Further, you forget that the W220 S600 was available with the AMG cosmetic kit and as a result everyone had complete choice on which car to buy. Further, slowness of the S63 as compared to the W220 S55 has further magnified the deficiency of the S63 relative to the S600 in a manner that was not as obvious in the W220 S55 vs S600. If you lived in North america and hung around Mercedes benz enthusiasts, all of the above will be apparent. I hope we don't start debating whether or not the S63 is slower than the W220 S55. Just look at the E63/E55 forum.
.............your point about sophistication of the current AMG NA 6.2 liter engine is a bit overstated. Remmember that the same GOdly AMG you worship saw it fit to to carry over the twin turbo V12 engine from the W220 chasis to the W221 chasis in a completely unaltered form. I don't see them selling the the S63 at a higher price than the S65 or S600, since the S63 is so wonderfully sophisticated. You forget that this same engine is already out in the CLS63, E63 and CLK63 cabriolet with so far very poor response from buyers. These cars are not exactly selling like hot cakes. Maybe we are all to ignorant to appreciate them. Is the NA 6.2 liter engine in the S63 going be different from the one in the above mentioned cars?
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 05-14-2007 at 05:35 PM.
05-15-2007, 03:02 AM
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Germancar, you may be overly harsh with this gentleman's comment. In fact, I agree with much of it. I personally know people who have acquired the latest S65, and they refer to it simply as the V12 model.
Who cares that the S63 is outclassed by the S 600? I do, for one. Heck, I am even bothered that the S600 is outclassed by the S65, even though it is loaded with more standard features, when you look at it in detail. Truth is, in the S-Class hierarchy, a V12 will always sit higher.
Who cares that the S63 is outclassed by the S 600? I do, for one. Heck, I am even bothered that the S600 is outclassed by the S65, even though it is loaded with more standard features, when you look at it in detail. Truth is, in the S-Class hierarchy, a V12 will always sit higher.
Secondly, why would you care about the S63 being outclassed by the S600? It is supposed to be that way. The V12 is the top of the line S-Class, wether it be the S600 or the S65 AMG. The S63 AMG is the sport model, the S600 is the luxury model with a longer history and more heritage attached to it so it should be the #1 in the S lineup, well aside from the all-conquering S65 AMG.
M
05-15-2007, 03:27 AM
#38
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...........some your posts makes me wonder where you live. If you live in North America and you never heard of would be buyers debating between the W220 S55 or the S600, then you are not listening. Further, you forget that the W220 S600 was available with the AMG cosmetic kit and as a result everyone had complete choice on which car to buy. Further, slowness of the S63 as compared to the W220 S55 has further magnified the deficiency of the S63 relative to the S600 in a manner that was not as obvious in the W220 S55 vs S600. If you lived in North america and hung around Mercedes benz enthusiasts, all of the above will be apparent. I hope we don't start debating whether or not the S63 is slower than the W220 S55. Just look at the E63/E55 forum.
.............your point about sophistication of the current AMG NA 6.2 liter engine is a bit overstated. Remmember that the same GOdly AMG you worship saw it fit to to carry over the twin turbo V12 engine from the W220 chasis to the W221 chasis in a completely unaltered form. I don't see them selling the the S63 at a higher price than the S65 or S600, since the S63 is so wonderfully sophisticated. You forget that this same engine is already out in the CLS63, E63 and CLK63 cabriolet with so far very poor response from buyers. These cars are not exactly selling like hot cakes. Maybe we are all to ignorant to appreciate them. Is the NA 6.2 liter engine in the S63 going be different from the one in the above mentioned cars?
Ted
.............your point about sophistication of the current AMG NA 6.2 liter engine is a bit overstated. Remmember that the same GOdly AMG you worship saw it fit to to carry over the twin turbo V12 engine from the W220 chasis to the W221 chasis in a completely unaltered form. I don't see them selling the the S63 at a higher price than the S65 or S600, since the S63 is so wonderfully sophisticated. You forget that this same engine is already out in the CLS63, E63 and CLK63 cabriolet with so far very poor response from buyers. These cars are not exactly selling like hot cakes. Maybe we are all to ignorant to appreciate them. Is the NA 6.2 liter engine in the S63 going be different from the one in the above mentioned cars?
Ted
Uh...I live in North America, but the people you keep calling enthusiasts seem like simpletons to me if they can't even begin to appreciate the engineering that went into the new V8 simply because it doesn't obliterate the old V8 or because it doesn't outpower a V12. It also occurs to me that too many Mercedes owners only care about drag racing on this board, which is kinda sad considering a Mercedes is so much more than that. Mercedes made more changes than just the engines on the CLK, M, E, CLS etc. they also made these cars handle and stop better, but that seems to be lost on the drag racers here. It seems to me that all the professional reviews of the 63 cars found them to be more complete vehicles than the one-dimensional 55 cars with their torque monster engines.
At the end of the day there are enough people, enthusiasts, cluelessers, etc. etc. to buy enough S600s, S63s etc to make MBUSA happy and that is what ultimately matters. Your rants about the CLK63 Coupe not being sold here and now how anemic the S63 is are just way off-base IMO. These points don't represent enough people's viewpoint for it to matter ultimately. Real "enthusiasts" aren't as simplistic as 0-60 times anyway, they take the whole car into account.
I just pointed out in another post that the W220 S600 was available with the AMG kit and yet people still bought the W220 S55 AMG also, which makes your point about why MBUSA all of a sudden won't sell a W221 S600 with the AMG kit, moot. Next you'll tell me that the W220 S600 sold so much better than the W220 S55 right? Unless you have actual sales number then you're only speculating so don't bother, unless you have the proof.
Again, TED the E55 and E63 debate isn't as cut and dry as you want it to be. The E63 in the hands of professional drivers has proven to be just as fast as the E55 and faster in some cases. There has been no clear victory for either car. Sometimes the E55 is faster and vice versa for the E63. You simply have no idea whether or not the S63 is going to be "slower" than the W220 S55 until someone tests the darn thing. You assume way to much and try to pass it off as factual, and it isn't.
You have absolutely no clue about the new AMG V8 it seems. Your going on and on about a V12 that is like 10 years old running SOHCs and a 3 valves per cylinder while the V8s in every other Mercedes are much more modern in design and construction. As far as V8s go the AMG V8 is the best there is right now, that has to account for something. It can stand toe to toe with Audi and BMW V10s in any criteria, either hp and certainly in torque. To downplay the acheivements of this engine is just really wrong on so many levels. It is an engineering masterpiece compared to a more powerful, but outdated turbocharged V12s. Don't get me wrong I live the V12s too, they smash up any other V12 or V8+batteries (the Lexus LS600hL) with ease, but they are long in the tooth. Their awesome power is the only thing that keeps the press from calling them outdated.
Doesn't an "enthusiast" care about engine design or specs in addition to hp numbers? Hell if you just want thrust there are number of cheaper ways to get it besides a V12 Mercedes-Benz.
I don't think you understand the principle behind the new AMG V8, nor do you have a correct read on what buyers feel about this engine. In the very beginning there were some who didn't like the engine due to the loss of torque compared to the old 5.5L V8, but to say that consumer response has been poor is just outright BS. I didn't like the new engine having less torque at first either, but after some experience with it (and the newer cars themselves) I found out that was a silly stance to take. The cars with the 63 engines are more refined and thus and all around better package than the old 55 cars.
Have you read any of the forums outside of the E55/E63 onces? The CLK63's problem is that for 90K the CLK63 Cabriolet is simply overpriced. The "response" to the engine in other MB models has been great and so have sales. The CLS63, E63, ML63, and CL63 are all being bought left and right by people on these boards so where you get this "poor customer response" from is beyond me. From the responses on the boards the 63 cars (except the CLK63 Cabrio) are selling well enough, unless you have numbers to prove otherwise I'd love to see them.
Ted, the AMG V8 is just that a V8, so why in the world would they sell it for MORE THAN a V12? That is just plain nuts. Who said that they should? I surely didn't. A V12 is always going to top a V8 in price status etc. Yet the V8 cars are for those who care are more agile and from what I've heard sound better too. The V12s are for more effortless power and speed, why this is so hard to understand here is a mystery to me. Why would AMG need to do anything with the 6L V12, the thing makes over 600hp and 700lb-ft of torque and so far nothing from BMW or Audi comes close so there was no need to update it.
The 6.2L V8 (it isn't really a 6.3L) will have a few more horses in the CL/S63 cars, 518hp vs 475-507 in the other 63 models.
Why doesn't everyone here who finds the V12 to be the end-all and want the AMG look/package just get a S65 and call it a day? That ends the argument completely.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 05-15-2007 at 03:46 AM.
05-15-2007, 03:34 AM
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I have been patiently awaiting the arrival of the new S63 AMG. My local dealers here in socal are expecting some next week as the ship will come to port on may 10th. A few months ago i was told i had no chance of getting one unless i put a deposit down and that it would be at msrp. Now those same dealers I visited a few months back have been calling me nonstop telling me that i can come in and pick up the car.
In 2001 I purchased an E46 M3. This car was ridiculously hard to get as they were all going over sticker. I ended up getting extremely lucky and was able to score on in July at sticker (mind you they had been out since february). Now I dont condone this over sticker crap but it sure does help the car hold its value. 3 yrs later 10k miles i walked away from the car loosing about 16,000. A real bargain if you ask me considering i enjoyed the best 3 yrs of the cars life. I am worried that once i buy the S63 it will drop rapidly in value. Several of the dealers who have called have openly offered discounting. It reminds me of the E63's i see on ebay going for 7000 off sticker. Dont get me wrong i think the S63 is an awesome car and i will most likely purchase one I am just concerned as i dont want to take a bath on it. What is everyone elses opinion?
In 2001 I purchased an E46 M3. This car was ridiculously hard to get as they were all going over sticker. I ended up getting extremely lucky and was able to score on in July at sticker (mind you they had been out since february). Now I dont condone this over sticker crap but it sure does help the car hold its value. 3 yrs later 10k miles i walked away from the car loosing about 16,000. A real bargain if you ask me considering i enjoyed the best 3 yrs of the cars life. I am worried that once i buy the S63 it will drop rapidly in value. Several of the dealers who have called have openly offered discounting. It reminds me of the E63's i see on ebay going for 7000 off sticker. Dont get me wrong i think the S63 is an awesome car and i will most likely purchase one I am just concerned as i dont want to take a bath on it. What is everyone elses opinion?
Hav u checked Bh Mb, They had 2 nice ones there wen I bought my car in february
05-15-2007, 04:19 AM
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05-15-2007, 08:37 AM
#42
Ted you simply don't make any sense. One minute I'm told that buyers in this segment don't care about 0-60 times, now you're telling me that it matters oh so much. Which is it? How in the world do you know what the S63 AMG can do when it hasn't been tested yet. Do you really think it is going to be a "slow" car, that is ridiculous at best. Sure the S600 will be faster, but we're talking about a 1/2 second or so at best, but this is assuming that buyers in this segment are drag racers and care about such things. Who cares if W220 buyers debated the S600 and the S55, get over it. The W220 is gone now.
Uh...I live in North America, but the people you keep calling enthusiasts seem like simpletons to me if they can't even begin to appreciate the engineering that went into the new V8 simply because it doesn't obliterate the old V8 or because it doesn't outpower a V12. It also occurs to me that too many Mercedes owners only care about drag racing on this board, which is kinda sad considering a Mercedes is so much more than that. Mercedes made more changes than just the engines on the CLK, M, E, CLS etc. they also made these cars handle and stop better, but that seems to be lost on the drag racers here. It seems to me that all the professional reviews of the 63 cars found them to be more complete vehicles than the one-dimensional 55 cars with their torque monster engines.
At the end of the day there are enough people, enthusiasts, cluelessers, etc. etc. to buy enough S600s, S63s etc to make MBUSA happy and that is what ultimately matters. Your rants about the CLK63 Coupe not being sold here and now how anemic the S63 is are just way off-base IMO. These points don't represent enough people's viewpoint for it to matter ultimately. Real "enthusiasts" aren't as simplistic as 0-60 times anyway, they take the whole car into account.
I just pointed out in another post that the W220 S600 was available with the AMG kit and yet people still bought the W220 S55 AMG also, which makes your point about why MBUSA all of a sudden won't sell a W221 S600 with the AMG kit, moot. Next you'll tell me that the W220 S600 sold so much better than the W220 S55 right? Unless you have actual sales number then you're only speculating so don't bother, unless you have the proof.
Again, TED the E55 and E63 debate isn't as cut and dry as you want it to be. The E63 in the hands of professional drivers has proven to be just as fast as the E55 and faster in some cases. There has been no clear victory for either car. Sometimes the E55 is faster and vice versa for the E63. You simply have no idea whether or not the S63 is going to be "slower" than the W220 S55 until someone tests the darn thing. You assume way to much and try to pass it off as factual, and it isn't.
You have absolutely no clue about the new AMG V8 it seems. Your going on and on about a V12 that is like 10 years old running SOHCs and a 3 valves per cylinder while the V8s in every other Mercedes are much more modern in design and construction. As far as V8s go the AMG V8 is the best there is right now, that has to account for something. It can stand toe to toe with Audi and BMW V10s in any criteria, either hp and certainly in torque. To downplay the acheivements of this engine is just really wrong on so many levels. It is an engineering masterpiece compared to a more powerful, but outdated turbocharged V12s. Don't get me wrong I live the V12s too, they smash up any other V12 or V8+batteries (the Lexus LS600hL) with ease, but they are long in the tooth. Their awesome power is the only thing that keeps the press from calling them outdated.
Doesn't an "enthusiast" care about engine design or specs in addition to hp numbers? Hell if you just want thrust there are number of cheaper ways to get it besides a V12 Mercedes-Benz.
I don't think you understand the principle behind the new AMG V8, nor do you have a correct read on what buyers feel about this engine. In the very beginning there were some who didn't like the engine due to the loss of torque compared to the old 5.5L V8, but to say that consumer response has been poor is just outright BS. I didn't like the new engine having less torque at first either, but after some experience with it (and the newer cars themselves) I found out that was a silly stance to take. The cars with the 63 engines are more refined and thus and all around better package than the old 55 cars.
Have you read any of the forums outside of the E55/E63 onces? The CLK63's problem is that for 90K the CLK63 Cabriolet is simply overpriced. The "response" to the engine in other MB models has been great and so have sales. The CLS63, E63, ML63, and CL63 are all being bought left and right by people on these boards so where you get this "poor customer response" from is beyond me. From the responses on the boards the 63 cars (except the CLK63 Cabrio) are selling well enough, unless you have numbers to prove otherwise I'd love to see them.
Ted, the AMG V8 is just that a V8, so why in the world would they sell it for MORE THAN a V12? That is just plain nuts. Who said that they should? I surely didn't. A V12 is always going to top a V8 in price status etc. Yet the V8 cars are for those who care are more agile and from what I've heard sound better too. The V12s are for more effortless power and speed, why this is so hard to understand here is a mystery to me. Why would AMG need to do anything with the 6L V12, the thing makes over 600hp and 700lb-ft of torque and so far nothing from BMW or Audi comes close so there was no need to update it.
The 6.2L V8 (it isn't really a 6.3L) will have a few more horses in the CL/S63 cars, 518hp vs 475-507 in the other 63 models.
Why doesn't everyone here who finds the V12 to be the end-all and want the AMG look/package just get a S65 and call it a day? That ends the argument completely.
M
Uh...I live in North America, but the people you keep calling enthusiasts seem like simpletons to me if they can't even begin to appreciate the engineering that went into the new V8 simply because it doesn't obliterate the old V8 or because it doesn't outpower a V12. It also occurs to me that too many Mercedes owners only care about drag racing on this board, which is kinda sad considering a Mercedes is so much more than that. Mercedes made more changes than just the engines on the CLK, M, E, CLS etc. they also made these cars handle and stop better, but that seems to be lost on the drag racers here. It seems to me that all the professional reviews of the 63 cars found them to be more complete vehicles than the one-dimensional 55 cars with their torque monster engines.
At the end of the day there are enough people, enthusiasts, cluelessers, etc. etc. to buy enough S600s, S63s etc to make MBUSA happy and that is what ultimately matters. Your rants about the CLK63 Coupe not being sold here and now how anemic the S63 is are just way off-base IMO. These points don't represent enough people's viewpoint for it to matter ultimately. Real "enthusiasts" aren't as simplistic as 0-60 times anyway, they take the whole car into account.
I just pointed out in another post that the W220 S600 was available with the AMG kit and yet people still bought the W220 S55 AMG also, which makes your point about why MBUSA all of a sudden won't sell a W221 S600 with the AMG kit, moot. Next you'll tell me that the W220 S600 sold so much better than the W220 S55 right? Unless you have actual sales number then you're only speculating so don't bother, unless you have the proof.
Again, TED the E55 and E63 debate isn't as cut and dry as you want it to be. The E63 in the hands of professional drivers has proven to be just as fast as the E55 and faster in some cases. There has been no clear victory for either car. Sometimes the E55 is faster and vice versa for the E63. You simply have no idea whether or not the S63 is going to be "slower" than the W220 S55 until someone tests the darn thing. You assume way to much and try to pass it off as factual, and it isn't.
You have absolutely no clue about the new AMG V8 it seems. Your going on and on about a V12 that is like 10 years old running SOHCs and a 3 valves per cylinder while the V8s in every other Mercedes are much more modern in design and construction. As far as V8s go the AMG V8 is the best there is right now, that has to account for something. It can stand toe to toe with Audi and BMW V10s in any criteria, either hp and certainly in torque. To downplay the acheivements of this engine is just really wrong on so many levels. It is an engineering masterpiece compared to a more powerful, but outdated turbocharged V12s. Don't get me wrong I live the V12s too, they smash up any other V12 or V8+batteries (the Lexus LS600hL) with ease, but they are long in the tooth. Their awesome power is the only thing that keeps the press from calling them outdated.
Doesn't an "enthusiast" care about engine design or specs in addition to hp numbers? Hell if you just want thrust there are number of cheaper ways to get it besides a V12 Mercedes-Benz.
I don't think you understand the principle behind the new AMG V8, nor do you have a correct read on what buyers feel about this engine. In the very beginning there were some who didn't like the engine due to the loss of torque compared to the old 5.5L V8, but to say that consumer response has been poor is just outright BS. I didn't like the new engine having less torque at first either, but after some experience with it (and the newer cars themselves) I found out that was a silly stance to take. The cars with the 63 engines are more refined and thus and all around better package than the old 55 cars.
Have you read any of the forums outside of the E55/E63 onces? The CLK63's problem is that for 90K the CLK63 Cabriolet is simply overpriced. The "response" to the engine in other MB models has been great and so have sales. The CLS63, E63, ML63, and CL63 are all being bought left and right by people on these boards so where you get this "poor customer response" from is beyond me. From the responses on the boards the 63 cars (except the CLK63 Cabrio) are selling well enough, unless you have numbers to prove otherwise I'd love to see them.
Ted, the AMG V8 is just that a V8, so why in the world would they sell it for MORE THAN a V12? That is just plain nuts. Who said that they should? I surely didn't. A V12 is always going to top a V8 in price status etc. Yet the V8 cars are for those who care are more agile and from what I've heard sound better too. The V12s are for more effortless power and speed, why this is so hard to understand here is a mystery to me. Why would AMG need to do anything with the 6L V12, the thing makes over 600hp and 700lb-ft of torque and so far nothing from BMW or Audi comes close so there was no need to update it.
The 6.2L V8 (it isn't really a 6.3L) will have a few more horses in the CL/S63 cars, 518hp vs 475-507 in the other 63 models.
Why doesn't everyone here who finds the V12 to be the end-all and want the AMG look/package just get a S65 and call it a day? That ends the argument completely.
M
..........according to you anyone that prefers the E55 to the E63 or the S600 to the S63 must be stupid, clueless and a simpleton.
..........According to your argument if AMg comes up with a new engine with 5 valves per cylinder that makes less HP and torque than the current S63, we should all sing hosana or risk being institutionalized for mental retardation
...........I don't mind shooting the breeze with you, but you need to park the insults.
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 05-15-2007 at 08:44 AM.
05-15-2007, 11:50 AM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
...............I don't know you but your posts are full of unsuccessful attempts to make yourself sound intelligent by putting others down.
..........according to you anyone that prefers the E55 to the E63 or the S600 to the S63 must be stupid, clueless and a simpleton.
..........According to your argument if AMg comes up with a new engine with 5 valves per cylinder that makes less HP and torque than the current S63, we should all sing hosana or risk being institutionalized for mental retardation
...........I don't mind shooting the breeze with you, but you need to park the insults.
Ted
..........according to you anyone that prefers the E55 to the E63 or the S600 to the S63 must be stupid, clueless and a simpleton.
..........According to your argument if AMg comes up with a new engine with 5 valves per cylinder that makes less HP and torque than the current S63, we should all sing hosana or risk being institutionalized for mental retardation
...........I don't mind shooting the breeze with you, but you need to park the insults.
Ted
You are correct that insulting people is pointless but his post still has some valid points. Maybe his style of posting made it seem aggressive but he still had a valid point or two.
I have to agree that people on this forum are so hell bent with drag racing that it reduces the expectations of the car down to that of a 60's muscle car. From my standpoint the 63 motor is hands down a better lump due to its "sportier" nature, higher redline, and more linear torque curve. Since I do not worry about modding a car and I don't do 1/4 runs, its not hard to see that I enjoy the 63 more than a 55k or 600.
I know you have made a ton of really quick 1/4 mile cars. We always wait to see what you come up with next as far a making more power etc because its really interesting to watch people push the limits of the car. But it would help if you saw the other perspective as well instead of frequently posting that a given motor is inferior etc. It all comes down to personal tastes.
I know I made a post a while back disagreeing with your idea that a CLK Black Edition is nothing more than a hard top CLK63 for the us market. I tend to do road racing over drag racing and that is why a CLK black is so appealing to me. No MB on the market other than a Black edition is capable of going to the track for a day of hot lapping without fear of destroying parts and melting tires and brakes. Yes its a heavy car and I still dont know why they chose to make it 4000 lbs but I still like the car. With that said you do make many posts saying how you think its a pointless car taking advantage of Americans. I would disagree but clearly we have differing desires and points of view.
I think GermanCar1 is just frustrated with the abnormally large number of people drag racing the large comfortable Mercedes vehicles because it leaves all the other abilities of the car on the table.
In the end if every owner loves his/her car great but we will all use them in different ways.
I mean in all honesty I feel as if my two 55k cars are sledge hammers... very powerful and capable to destroying most anything but they can be a bit hard to control at times (especially with respect to chassis dynamics).
Last edited by CynCarvin32; 05-15-2007 at 11:56 AM.
05-15-2007, 03:05 PM
#44
Ted,
You are correct that insulting people is pointless but his post still has some valid points. Maybe his style of posting made it seem aggressive but he still had a valid point or two.
I have to agree that people on this forum are so hell bent with drag racing that it reduces the expectations of the car down to that of a 60's muscle car. From my standpoint the 63 motor is hands down a better lump due to its "sportier" nature, higher redline, and more linear torque curve. Since I do not worry about modding a car and I don't do 1/4 runs, its not hard to see that I enjoy the 63 more than a 55k or 600.
I know you have made a ton of really quick 1/4 mile cars. We always wait to see what you come up with next as far a making more power etc because its really interesting to watch people push the limits of the car. But it would help if you saw the other perspective as well instead of frequently posting that a given motor is inferior etc. It all comes down to personal tastes.
I know I made a post a while back disagreeing with your idea that a CLK Black Edition is nothing more than a hard top CLK63 for the us market. I tend to do road racing over drag racing and that is why a CLK black is so appealing to me. No MB on the market other than a Black edition is capable of going to the track for a day of hot lapping without fear of destroying parts and melting tires and brakes. Yes its a heavy car and I still dont know why they chose to make it 4000 lbs but I still like the car. With that said you do make many posts saying how you think its a pointless car taking advantage of Americans. I would disagree but clearly we have differing desires and points of view.
I think GermanCar1 is just frustrated with the abnormally large number of people drag racing the large comfortable Mercedes vehicles because it leaves all the other abilities of the car on the table.
In the end if every owner loves his/her car great but we will all use them in different ways.
I mean in all honesty I feel as if my two 55k cars are sledge hammers... very powerful and capable to destroying most anything but they can be a bit hard to control at times (especially with respect to chassis dynamics).
You are correct that insulting people is pointless but his post still has some valid points. Maybe his style of posting made it seem aggressive but he still had a valid point or two.
I have to agree that people on this forum are so hell bent with drag racing that it reduces the expectations of the car down to that of a 60's muscle car. From my standpoint the 63 motor is hands down a better lump due to its "sportier" nature, higher redline, and more linear torque curve. Since I do not worry about modding a car and I don't do 1/4 runs, its not hard to see that I enjoy the 63 more than a 55k or 600.
I know you have made a ton of really quick 1/4 mile cars. We always wait to see what you come up with next as far a making more power etc because its really interesting to watch people push the limits of the car. But it would help if you saw the other perspective as well instead of frequently posting that a given motor is inferior etc. It all comes down to personal tastes.
I know I made a post a while back disagreeing with your idea that a CLK Black Edition is nothing more than a hard top CLK63 for the us market. I tend to do road racing over drag racing and that is why a CLK black is so appealing to me. No MB on the market other than a Black edition is capable of going to the track for a day of hot lapping without fear of destroying parts and melting tires and brakes. Yes its a heavy car and I still dont know why they chose to make it 4000 lbs but I still like the car. With that said you do make many posts saying how you think its a pointless car taking advantage of Americans. I would disagree but clearly we have differing desires and points of view.
I think GermanCar1 is just frustrated with the abnormally large number of people drag racing the large comfortable Mercedes vehicles because it leaves all the other abilities of the car on the table.
In the end if every owner loves his/her car great but we will all use them in different ways.
I mean in all honesty I feel as if my two 55k cars are sledge hammers... very powerful and capable to destroying most anything but they can be a bit hard to control at times (especially with respect to chassis dynamics).
.........I think when an S600 owner says he likes the smooth effortlss power delivery of the S600 instead of a high reving V8 in what is afterall a very large luxury sedan, that person has a point. Is this not what a large luxury sedan should be? The person is not talking about drag racing. I have not even seen any mention of drag racing in this thread. You and Germancar1 maybe victims of your own prejudicies.
.......further even if a person prefers the S600 for drag racing purposes, so what? Is the person clueless, retarded and a simpleton? This kind of self appointed ellitist streak that crop up occassionally in these forums is nauseating. Reminds me of the famous Grey poupon comercial. Truly sophisticated people do not need to stand at the mountain top and yell "look at me, I am sophisticated and you are not"
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 05-15-2007 at 03:07 PM.
05-15-2007, 03:46 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
.........I think when an S600 owner says he likes the smooth effortlss power delivery of the S600 instead of a high reving V8 in what is afterall a very large luxury sedan, that person has a point. Is this not what a large luxury sedan should be? The person is not talking about drag racing. I have not even seen any mention of drag racing in this thread. You and Germancar1 maybe victims of your own prejudicies.
.......further even if a person prefers the S600 for drag racing purposes, so what? Is the person clueless, retarded and a simpleton? This kind of self appointed ellitist streak that crop up occassionally in these forums is nauseating. Reminds me of the famous Grey poupon comercial. Truly sophisticated people do not need to stand at the mountain top and yell "look at me, I am sophisticated and you are not"
Ted
.......further even if a person prefers the S600 for drag racing purposes, so what? Is the person clueless, retarded and a simpleton? This kind of self appointed ellitist streak that crop up occassionally in these forums is nauseating. Reminds me of the famous Grey poupon comercial. Truly sophisticated people do not need to stand at the mountain top and yell "look at me, I am sophisticated and you are not"
Ted
In many posts, you state that the 63 cars are not in demand, not very good, and not worth upgrading for. I am not a person falling into my own prejudices at all. If you were to take a poll of early 63 owners and ask how they were treated by 55k owners you would quickly see that most were bashed for having a "lesser" car.
63 vs 600 is not so much of a debate as its a low reving motor for moving a ship down the road where a 63 is more of a personality filled motor where the driver feels more in tune with the driving experience. The average 600 owner is looking for the ability to "waff" down the road as if nothing in the world was an issue. Most 600 owners are not out to rev the car and zipp along like a mad car enthusiast .
I might not like the 600 motor because its an old 3 valve lump which was low tech when it came out in 2001 and its really low tech here in 2007. The M113 motor had that same issue in my eye. No valve timing adjustment, not fancy fuel system nothing that great. 3 valve combustion chambers are very inefficient and existed 30 years ago. They were massively powerful and with that they were popular. Do I like driving 55k cars? Sure. Do I think they sound TERRIBLE at idle? Yes. Do I think they sound fairly sloppy when revving? Yes. Hollow cam shafts, cheap pulley bearings, and other items made these engines sound very cheap. I just dont like hearing clatter at idle and every 3 valve motor MB ever made sounded TERRIBLE IMHO. Plus the 55k cars chirp and buck with each supercharger engagement.
I drove my SL55 last night and the slightest hit of throttle when throttle steering the car makes the back of the car nearly uncontrollable. In that case I think the drive line of a 63 works better for spirited driving. I used a CLS63 at Pahrump motor speedway (outside vegas) and I swear the motor, transmission, and LSD made that car 200% better than my E55 and it weighs 200+ pounds MORE.
We all have opinions and I respect yours. But reading your posts in the past you do not respect the opinions of others.
05-15-2007, 04:31 PM
#46
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2011 Hyundai Elantra GLS
Some of the exlcusives of S600 in my book are:
the smoother engine--not much a fan of the rauccous nature of the AMG V12, although most consider it a plus.
Smoother ride, by a little
Nicer interior appointments (Ok, just as nice, but the ruffled leather adds class, and is only available on the S600 or designos, and not on the AMGs)
Designo like seats come standard on the S600 (at least judging by the case of the CL) with the V12 insignia on the backrest, and vertical piping, which makes the seats more attractive to me than the AMG ones, although here to many will dissagree.
Not to mention that at $145 MSRP, the 600 includes features that were we to want in the S65, we'd have to shell close or upward of 15 Gs.
Germancar, anyone who buys an S-class cares about what the world, ie. others, think of them. That is what motivated them to become as sucessful and with means as they most likely are, to afford them. They have ego, and that is what drives them. Most importantly, they have an undying commitment to treat and reward themselves for their hard work, and they want the best. I got rid of a 2002 M5 to get a 2005 S600. Was the M5 a car to get rid off? Absolutely not, I did not have to spend the extra $ to get a larger and by most accounts a less sporty car, less suited to my age, and less forgiving to my bottom line. Status did play a lot on my decision: An S-class tells peeps that I have arrived (whether or not I have!!!) more so than a 5 series. An S600 speaks a bit louder even than a regular 500. So yes, I am prone to opinions, but the loudest voice I kept hearing was my own, telling me that I wanted a V12.... no, i needed a V12, fuel and repair bills be damned, and common sense with it. I am sure many of the people that see me getting in or out of it think i am some pretentious tool and a showoff, and u know? I don't care, it suits me well: we usually envy pretentious tools and showoffs, if only for their toys.
the smoother engine--not much a fan of the rauccous nature of the AMG V12, although most consider it a plus.
Smoother ride, by a little
Nicer interior appointments (Ok, just as nice, but the ruffled leather adds class, and is only available on the S600 or designos, and not on the AMGs)
Designo like seats come standard on the S600 (at least judging by the case of the CL) with the V12 insignia on the backrest, and vertical piping, which makes the seats more attractive to me than the AMG ones, although here to many will dissagree.
Not to mention that at $145 MSRP, the 600 includes features that were we to want in the S65, we'd have to shell close or upward of 15 Gs.
Germancar, anyone who buys an S-class cares about what the world, ie. others, think of them. That is what motivated them to become as sucessful and with means as they most likely are, to afford them. They have ego, and that is what drives them. Most importantly, they have an undying commitment to treat and reward themselves for their hard work, and they want the best. I got rid of a 2002 M5 to get a 2005 S600. Was the M5 a car to get rid off? Absolutely not, I did not have to spend the extra $ to get a larger and by most accounts a less sporty car, less suited to my age, and less forgiving to my bottom line. Status did play a lot on my decision: An S-class tells peeps that I have arrived (whether or not I have!!!) more so than a 5 series. An S600 speaks a bit louder even than a regular 500. So yes, I am prone to opinions, but the loudest voice I kept hearing was my own, telling me that I wanted a V12.... no, i needed a V12, fuel and repair bills be damned, and common sense with it. I am sure many of the people that see me getting in or out of it think i am some pretentious tool and a showoff, and u know? I don't care, it suits me well: we usually envy pretentious tools and showoffs, if only for their toys.
05-15-2007, 06:36 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Raucous? Satanic maybe, but I can't see attributing a lack of smoothness to the 65 engine. (As you know from Sympathy for the Devil, Satan is very smooth.) The idle is like glass, thrust delivery seems telepathic and the engine note is too refined for many enthusiasts.
05-16-2007, 02:05 AM
#48
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
...............I don't know you but your posts are full of unsuccessful attempts to make yourself sound intelligent by putting others down.
..........according to you anyone that prefers the E55 to the E63 or the S600 to the S63 must be stupid, clueless and a simpleton.
..........According to your argument if AMg comes up with a new engine with 5 valves per cylinder that makes less HP and torque than the current S63, we should all sing hosana or risk being institutionalized for mental retardation
...........I don't mind shooting the breeze with you, but you need to park the insults.
Ted
..........according to you anyone that prefers the E55 to the E63 or the S600 to the S63 must be stupid, clueless and a simpleton.
..........According to your argument if AMg comes up with a new engine with 5 valves per cylinder that makes less HP and torque than the current S63, we should all sing hosana or risk being institutionalized for mental retardation
...........I don't mind shooting the breeze with you, but you need to park the insults.
Ted
What I said is that someone who is hell-bent on 0-60 times in a Benz is pretty much wasting their money because there are much cheaper ways to get maximum thrust. I mean one minute S-Class buyers don't care about 0-60 times and they next they do. Which is it?
Naturally you misssed the point about the AMG V8. My point was that if people are that simplistic as to go for the engine "with the most cylinders" without even knowing anything else about the engine, they're totally clueless IMO. You don't call that simplistic? Sounds like the American "good ole V8" stance when import V6s have more power.
M
05-16-2007, 02:09 AM
#49
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Ted,
You are correct that insulting people is pointless but his post still has some valid points. Maybe his style of posting made it seem aggressive but he still had a valid point or two.
I think GermanCar1 is just frustrated with the abnormally large number of people drag racing the large comfortable Mercedes vehicles because it leaves all the other abilities of the car on the table.
In the end if every owner loves his/her car great but we will all use them in different ways.
I mean in all honesty I feel as if my two 55k cars are sledge hammers... very powerful and capable to destroying most anything but they can be a bit hard to control at times (especially with respect to chassis dynamics).
You are correct that insulting people is pointless but his post still has some valid points. Maybe his style of posting made it seem aggressive but he still had a valid point or two.
I think GermanCar1 is just frustrated with the abnormally large number of people drag racing the large comfortable Mercedes vehicles because it leaves all the other abilities of the car on the table.
In the end if every owner loves his/her car great but we will all use them in different ways.
I mean in all honesty I feel as if my two 55k cars are sledge hammers... very powerful and capable to destroying most anything but they can be a bit hard to control at times (especially with respect to chassis dynamics).
M
05-16-2007, 02:20 AM
#50
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 4,846
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
.........I think when an S600 owner says he likes the smooth effortlss power delivery of the S600 instead of a high reving V8 in what is afterall a very large luxury sedan, that person has a point. Is this not what a large luxury sedan should be? The person is not talking about drag racing. I have not even seen any mention of drag racing in this thread. You and Germancar1 maybe victims of your own prejudicies.
.......further even if a person prefers the S600 for drag racing purposes, so what? Is the person clueless, retarded and a simpleton? This kind of self appointed ellitist streak that crop up occassionally in these forums is nauseating. Reminds me of the famous Grey poupon comercial. Truly sophisticated people do not need to stand at the mountain top and yell "look at me, I am sophisticated and you are not"
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 05-16-2007 at 02:24 AM.
