No demand for the S63?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Ted,
In many posts, you state that the 63 cars are not in demand, not very good, and not worth upgrading for. I am not a person falling into my own prejudices at all. If you were to take a poll of early 63 owners and ask how they were treated by 55k owners you would quickly see that most were bashed for having a "lesser" car.
63 vs 600 is not so much of a debate as its a low reving motor for moving a ship down the road where a 63 is more of a personality filled motor where the driver feels more in tune with the driving experience. The average 600 owner is looking for the ability to "waff" down the road as if nothing in the world was an issue. Most 600 owners are not out to rev the car and zipp along like a mad car enthusiast .
I might not like the 600 motor because its an old 3 valve lump which was low tech when it came out in 2001 and its really low tech here in 2007. The M113 motor had that same issue in my eye. No valve timing adjustment, not fancy fuel system nothing that great. 3 valve combustion chambers are very inefficient and existed 30 years ago. They were massively powerful and with that they were popular. Do I like driving 55k cars? Sure. Do I think they sound TERRIBLE at idle? Yes. Do I think they sound fairly sloppy when revving? Yes. Hollow cam shafts, cheap pulley bearings, and other items made these engines sound very cheap. I just dont like hearing clatter at idle and every 3 valve motor MB ever made sounded TERRIBLE IMHO. Plus the 55k cars chirp and buck with each supercharger engagement.
I drove my SL55 last night and the slightest hit of throttle when throttle steering the car makes the back of the car nearly uncontrollable. In that case I think the drive line of a 63 works better for spirited driving. I used a CLS63 at Pahrump motor speedway (outside vegas) and I swear the motor, transmission, and LSD made that car 200% better than my E55 and it weighs 200+ pounds MORE.
We all have opinions and I respect yours. But reading your posts in the past you do not respect the opinions of others.
In many posts, you state that the 63 cars are not in demand, not very good, and not worth upgrading for. I am not a person falling into my own prejudices at all. If you were to take a poll of early 63 owners and ask how they were treated by 55k owners you would quickly see that most were bashed for having a "lesser" car.
63 vs 600 is not so much of a debate as its a low reving motor for moving a ship down the road where a 63 is more of a personality filled motor where the driver feels more in tune with the driving experience. The average 600 owner is looking for the ability to "waff" down the road as if nothing in the world was an issue. Most 600 owners are not out to rev the car and zipp along like a mad car enthusiast .
I might not like the 600 motor because its an old 3 valve lump which was low tech when it came out in 2001 and its really low tech here in 2007. The M113 motor had that same issue in my eye. No valve timing adjustment, not fancy fuel system nothing that great. 3 valve combustion chambers are very inefficient and existed 30 years ago. They were massively powerful and with that they were popular. Do I like driving 55k cars? Sure. Do I think they sound TERRIBLE at idle? Yes. Do I think they sound fairly sloppy when revving? Yes. Hollow cam shafts, cheap pulley bearings, and other items made these engines sound very cheap. I just dont like hearing clatter at idle and every 3 valve motor MB ever made sounded TERRIBLE IMHO. Plus the 55k cars chirp and buck with each supercharger engagement.
I drove my SL55 last night and the slightest hit of throttle when throttle steering the car makes the back of the car nearly uncontrollable. In that case I think the drive line of a 63 works better for spirited driving. I used a CLS63 at Pahrump motor speedway (outside vegas) and I swear the motor, transmission, and LSD made that car 200% better than my E55 and it weighs 200+ pounds MORE.
We all have opinions and I respect yours. But reading your posts in the past you do not respect the opinions of others.
M
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Some of the exlcusives of S600 in my book are:
the smoother engine--not much a fan of the rauccous nature of the AMG V12, although most consider it a plus.
Smoother ride, by a little
Nicer interior appointments (Ok, just as nice, but the ruffled leather adds class, and is only available on the S600 or designos, and not on the AMGs)
Designo like seats come standard on the S600 (at least judging by the case of the CL) with the V12 insignia on the backrest, and vertical piping, which makes the seats more attractive to me than the AMG ones, although here to many will dissagree.
Not to mention that at $145 MSRP, the 600 includes features that were we to want in the S65, we'd have to shell close or upward of 15 Gs.
the smoother engine--not much a fan of the rauccous nature of the AMG V12, although most consider it a plus.
Smoother ride, by a little
Nicer interior appointments (Ok, just as nice, but the ruffled leather adds class, and is only available on the S600 or designos, and not on the AMGs)
Designo like seats come standard on the S600 (at least judging by the case of the CL) with the V12 insignia on the backrest, and vertical piping, which makes the seats more attractive to me than the AMG ones, although here to many will dissagree.
Not to mention that at $145 MSRP, the 600 includes features that were we to want in the S65, we'd have to shell close or upward of 15 Gs.
Germancar, anyone who buys an S-class cares about what the world, ie. others, think of them. That is what motivated them to become as sucessful and with means as they most likely are, to afford them. They have ego, and that is what drives them. Most importantly, they have an undying commitment to treat and reward themselves for their hard work, and they want the best. I got rid of a 2002 M5 to get a 2005 S600. Was the M5 a car to get rid off? Absolutely not, I did not have to spend the extra $ to get a larger and by most accounts a less sporty car, less suited to my age, and less forgiving to my bottom line. Status did play a lot on my decision: An S-class tells peeps that I have arrived (whether or not I have!!!) more so than a 5 series. An S600 speaks a bit louder even than a regular 500. So yes, I am prone to opinions, but the loudest voice I kept hearing was my own, telling me that I wanted a V12.... no, i needed a V12, fuel and repair bills be damned, and common sense with it. I am sure many of the people that see me getting in or out of it think i am some pretentious tool and a showoff, and u know? I don't care, it suits me well: we usually envy pretentious tools and showoffs, if only for their toys
M
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: MI
2011 Hyundai Elantra GLS
Honestly I don't see any of this being anything to complain about. The S65 is an AMG model so it is supposed to be louder, ride a bit firmer and be more in tuned with the road. I think you're looking at the wrong car if you want a S65 to be the same characterwise as the S600. I mean really you're taking issue with the seats? Come on guy. The one thing I do agree with you on whole-heartedly is that the S65 should come fully loaded like the S600 does. Why MBUSA didn't go that route we'll never know, but that should have been your first (and only) gripe IMO.
M
M
I suspect I'd be more than happy with a "plain" S550 Sport, it is plenty wonderful and has the new tech, such as 7 speeds and 4 valves per cylinder, which both the V12s unfortunately still do without (now that does bother me as well... in my pseudo-purchase decision tree)
Last edited by Ferri; May 16, 2007 at 09:34 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
My gripes are only academic. I am not currently in the market for any of these two great automobiles, and the current auto will hold me for a long time, I expect. It is when we are dealing with a hypothetical buying decision that we can let ourselves get out of hand with gripes and little details.
I suspect I'd be more than happy with a "plain" S550 Sport, it is plenty wonderful and has the new tech, such as 7 speeds and 4 valves per cylinder, which both the V12s unfortunately still do without (now that does bother me as well... in my pseudo-purchase decision tree)
I suspect I'd be more than happy with a "plain" S550 Sport, it is plenty wonderful and has the new tech, such as 7 speeds and 4 valves per cylinder, which both the V12s unfortunately still do without (now that does bother me as well... in my pseudo-purchase decision tree)
M
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
From: MI
2011 Hyundai Elantra GLS
I agree that the new V12s may potentially have a torque rating lower than their power rating, but I would not say less torque than now... Plus, isn't it nonsensical to say that an engine has less torque than power? Isn't one a derivative of the other? If im not mistaken, power is a function of torque and RPM, they are not measured in the same units, so they can't be "uneven" since they are essentially the same thing (same energy expressed differently)... but I may be flawed in my reasoning.
MB does need one model or engine with "mad torque" factor--it has been their calling card for so long. However, I do not see them changing their 12-pots anytime soon... perhaps in the next S Class or at the earliest, when the facelift of the current one debuts--they may do so when the Maybach four door coupe comes though.
I did not know you were Merc1 in the other board, Germancar1. Over there, I am Pagani, lost the password for that name here.
Last edited by Ferri; May 17, 2007 at 08:41 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
Likes: 291
From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
I hope they do not mess with the 600 moniker. One thing to get rid of the 500, but the 600, now that is a sacrilege...
I agree that the new V12s may potentially have a torque rating lower than their power rating, but I would not say less torque than now... Plus, isn't it nonsensical to say that an engine has less torque than power? Isn't one a derivative of the other? If im not mistaken, power is a function of torque and RPM, they are not measured in the same units, so they can't be "uneven" since they are essentially the same thing (same energy expressed differently)... but I may be flawed in my reasoning.
MB does need one model or engine with "mad torque" factor--it has been their calling card for so long. However, I do not see them changing their 12-pots anytime soon... perhaps in the next S Class or at the earliest, when the facelift of the current one debuts--they may do so when the Maybach four door coupe comes though.
I did not know you were Merc1 in the other board, Germancar1. Over there, I am Pagani, lost the password for that name here.
I agree that the new V12s may potentially have a torque rating lower than their power rating, but I would not say less torque than now... Plus, isn't it nonsensical to say that an engine has less torque than power? Isn't one a derivative of the other? If im not mistaken, power is a function of torque and RPM, they are not measured in the same units, so they can't be "uneven" since they are essentially the same thing (same energy expressed differently)... but I may be flawed in my reasoning.
MB does need one model or engine with "mad torque" factor--it has been their calling card for so long. However, I do not see them changing their 12-pots anytime soon... perhaps in the next S Class or at the earliest, when the facelift of the current one debuts--they may do so when the Maybach four door coupe comes though.
I did not know you were Merc1 in the other board, Germancar1. Over there, I am Pagani, lost the password for that name here.
Oh, yeah I know you from GCZ!!!!
M
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
2008 S63
I still think the S600 looks like an old mans car...... faster or not.
I really not think the equasion is this simple. I would take a S63 over a S600 and I would take a S65 over a S63 if money were not a part of this discussion.
The persona of the AMG over the standard Mercedes is where it is at for me. Not looking for a pure luxo cruiser.
Schiz
I really not think the equasion is this simple. I would take a S63 over a S600 and I would take a S65 over a S63 if money were not a part of this discussion.
The persona of the AMG over the standard Mercedes is where it is at for me. Not looking for a pure luxo cruiser.
Schiz
