E430tuner

I have been patiently awaiting the arrival of the new S63 AMG. My local dealers here in socal are expecting some next week as the ship will come to port on may 10th. A few months ago i was told i had no chance of getting one unless i put a deposit down and that it would be at msrp. Now those same dealers I visited a few months back have been calling me nonstop telling me that i can come in and pick up the car.

In 2001 I purchased an E46 M3. This car was ridiculously hard to get as they were all going over sticker. I ended up getting extremely lucky and was able to score on in July at sticker (mind you they had been out since february). Now I dont condone this over sticker crap but it sure does help the car hold its value. 3 yrs later 10k miles i walked away from the car loosing about 16,000. A real bargain if you ask me considering i enjoyed the best 3 yrs of the cars life. I am worried that once i buy the S63 it will drop rapidly in value. Several of the dealers who have called have openly offered discounting. It reminds me of the E63's i see on ebay going for 7000 off sticker. Dont get me wrong i think the S63 is an awesome car and i will most likely purchase one I am just concerned as i dont want to take a bath on it. What is everyone elses opinion?

medici78

Take a look at the last gen S55's. These will tank if value just the same. Still an awesome car, but coming out of an E55, I already know what to expect, but in an even higher proportion.

bfnnrgn

I think the 600 has cannibilized the AMG model. Would you rather have an NA V8 or a twin turbo V12 for the same money with the same power and a lot more torque? V8 or TT V12, which has more appeal? TT V12 of course, that's a whole other level in peoples minds then a boring V8. The supercharged V8 had more appeal than a NA V8. Everyone has a V8 but who has a TT V12 under the hood(or a supercharged V8)? Not only that, in a race the 600 would defeat the 63. The 600 has just as much power, but consideribly more torqe and it's all available much lower in the RPM range. Lets not even talk about mods.

A body kit will only get you so far I'm afraid...and on a monster of this size and weight handling is not going to make much a difference.

Schiznick

I still think the S600 looks like an old mans car...... faster or not.

I really not think the equasion is this simple. I would take a S63 over a S600 and I would take a S65 over a S63 if money were not a part of this discussion.

The persona of the AMG over the standard Mercedes is where it is at for me. Not looking for a pure luxo cruiser.

Schiz

bfnnrgn

Maybe for the true enthusiasts I agree. AMG all the way. But most people are not enthusiasts. They have lots of money and they want a powerful luxury sedan. Which appeals more, V8 or TT V12? If you walked into a room and asked a show of hands which would you rather have if cost were no option(which it isn't since the price of the 2 is the same), a naturally aspirated V8 or a twin turbo V12 I think we all know which would get the most hands. I'd be suprised if the V8 got any hands in that case at all. And that is where we're at with the 63. To the average buyer the 63 has no appeal. What's exciting about a naturally aspirated V8? A Ford Taurus has a V8.

Schiznick

AMG's aren't for the average Mercedes buyer......

500 HP is what is exciting about a NA V8 and the sound.......

Taurus huh?

AMG's are not for everyone.

I would never buy a Mercedes for me that was not an AMG. It is more than just an engine discussion, it is a complete system that gives the vehicle a completely different personality.

bfnnrgn

Neither is an S600. A little out of people price range. Does everyone who buys an AMG even know what is stands for? Here on the forum we do, but the rest of the buying public? The look at the HP #s and engine type and pick. Before that was easy, AMG it has the best figures. No longer, the 600 has equal numbers and more mystique with it's extra cylinders and turbos.

TT V12 has 500 HP as well. TT V12 > V8 in the publics mind.

Yes, who doesn't have a V8 these days? Saturn maybe?

There was a time when I would have agreed, but in the 55/63 vs 600 debate plain Jane Mercedes has the better option with the 600 when most people are concerned. Make an E600. See who still buys the E63, sales of those are already bad enough as it is. Given the choice people will opt for the V12 over the V8. You'll find people are buying AMG because of the 500HP vs the vanilla 380, not for personality or styling. But AMG already knows this. They've been grumbling about the existance of the 500HP 600s since they came out.

srice

I don't buy the theory that there will be a lot available - and at a discount. My dealer is getting 4 between now and the end of the year, and they are all spoken for. Maybe that means they will get an extra allocation, but maybe not. SoCal has a lot of high volume dealers, and maybe some who had them reserved have bailed out, who knows. If you can get one at a discount, I would jump on it!

Resale of AMG's have never been very good in early years. Mercedes Finance is going to take a bath on my '06 E55 when it comes off lease in another year. Mid-Book is already lower than the residual value for mine - 13 months prior to lease end.

I don't think most people worry too much about resale value, anyway. AMG's are driver's cars , and we want what we want.

I'm told I have a 50/50 chance of getting my S63 before the end of the month . I hope it's on this boat that you say will dock on May 10. I wanna drive !!!!!

FloridaE55

That's why I would also pick a fully loaded (all options) SL55 over a fully loaded SL600. Better engine? Without a doubt, the SL600. But that's it. Appearance? AMG! Park a SL600 next to a SL55 with 030-package. I'm 27 and the SL55 is simply the younger car..

Ted Baldwin

........history simply repeats itself. I have a friend who purchased a Na S55 in 2001. In 2003 the supercharged S55 came out and his Na 2001 S55 tanked in value. At the time, the s/ced s55 owners were certain that their cars were exclusive and some payed above MSRP. Today you can getone of those cars for $35K.

........Even as someone that loves AMG cars, it is hard to choose the S63 over the S600. MB knows this, and I think this is why they don't want to sell the S600 with an AMG kit. I am pretty certain that the S63 will be a sales flop I predicted it awhile back. It is not the car's fault. I think MB/AMG fundamentally do not understand their customers, at least in North America. On a good note, I think Mb is sitting on a gold mine.....the CLk63 coupe, but they don't understand the US AMG customers well enough to introduce it to the US market. If they introduce it, it will be the next W211 E55 in terms of popularity.

........forgetting about the S63 vs S600 debate for a minute, every MB from the Maybach to the SLR to a C230 is available for anyone that wants one and has the money. There is no limited production anything. They will all tank in value. Paying above MSRP is stupid. The S63 will tank in value like every other MB before it and every other one after it. You buy the car, you enjoy it like you will a nice meal at a fancy restaurant. Once you the meal is served, the remainder you take home in a doggy bag is not worth very much. So is the case for cars, and yes AMG's included.

Ted

sprins

I agree. And don't forget the image. AMG is also about branding.

I'm a sucker for branding

Germancar1

Wow, you miss the entire point of AMG and their new V8. True most people aren't enthusiasts, but do you think that the a higher percentage of enthusiasts would actually seek about a S63 over a S600 if they know about the cars like we on this board are supposed to? Saying that a Ford Taurus from years ago had a V8 means what? If you don't see the appeal of a large displacement V8 that can rev and make monster torque then the whole reason of AMG making this V8 is completely and utterly lost on you. People who just pick a V12 over a V8 just because it has more cylinders (the ones you claim will automatically go for the V12) are the truly clueless bunch.

AMG cars are for the enthusiasts, not to set sales records, thats what the S550 is for.

M

vraa

S600 > S63.
One word.
Boost.

Germancar1

Where do you get this stuff from Ted? Why would it be hard for someone who likes AMGs to choose the S63 over the S600? The S63 promises to be more fun to drive and no doubt looks better. Your theory about the S600 not having the AMG kit don't hold much water because last time around the S55 and S600 both had the AMG treatment either standard or optional (S600).

The CLK63 Coupe might have been a hit, but I doubt it. People just didn't buy any of the AMG CLK Coupes before it and I doubt that the increased power of the 63 model would have changed that. Its the same reason why the C55 never sold well, people in this segment think M3, S4 and now RS4, not Mercedes CLK, AMG or not. AMGs are thought of as high end cars which is why the E63, SL55, ML63 are so popular.

I do agree with you that paying over sticker is the dumbest thing you can do on anything short of a limited production Ferrari.

M

Schiznick

I just don't agree with you. You keep quoting "Most People." How can you say that most people are buying an AMG only because of the engines.

Your argument is twisted and being approached from the direction of "Most People."

Think of it this way. I believe that most AMG buyers know what they are looking for and walk into a delaership looking for a particular AMG. How many AMG owners do you think blindly walked into a Mercedes dealership looking for a car and ended up with one? A few yes, but those would typically be the people that just said give me the top of the line most expensive mercedes. I have a hard time believing that the person that walks into a dealer looking at a E350 walks out with a E63. I also have a hard time believing that a person that walks in looking at a S63 buys a S600. V12 or not.

Up until about 2006, most dealers didn't even have AMG vehicles in the showroom to look at other than cars that were being delivered.

Who says AMG has been grumbling about the 600 engine? I bet they could care less. Other than the old body style S65, they have not had a problem selling all the 65's they wanted to.

What has ticked people off is that they can't order a S600 with the AMG Sports Package.

The S63 and S600 are targeted at two different groups of owners.

The V8 vs V12 debate has existed for a long time at Mercedes. I have news for you, many people pick a V8 over a V12. If you think the value of an AMG V12 falls like a rock, you haven't seen anything when compared to a standard Mercedes V12.

You might pick a S600 over a S63 and you may speak for "Most People" but I don't think you speak for Most AMG owners.

Schiznick

........Even as someone that loves AMG cars, it is hard to choose the S63 over the S600. MB knows this, and I think this is why they don't want to sell the S600 with an AMG kit. I am pretty certain that the S63 will be a sales flop I predicted it awhile back. It is not the car's fault. I think MB/AMG fundamentally do not understand their customers, at least in North America. On a good note, I think Mb is sitting on a gold mine.....the CLk63 coupe, but they don't understand the US AMG customers well enough to introduce it to the US market. If they introduce it, it will be the next W211 E55 in terms of popularity.



Ted[/QUOTE]

Seriously Ted, what is with you and this obsession over the CLK63 Coupe? I think you have said it yourself, the thing would be way over priced for what you get. They would have to sell it for like 85K when compared to the Cab at 90K.

To me this was the best car to match up against the M3 and with the M3 at 30K less, they are not even on the same planet.

I hate too say it but I think you are a bit mis-guided on the US market on this one. They have spoken by not buying the CLK55 Coupe.

I doubt any car for a long time will be like the E55K car if ever again. Even better would be looking at the 2003 SL55. Now that car changed AMG.

Cheers

Schiz

WSH

Fair assumption is any $150K+ limo/sport/family sedan will have poor resale value....no real surprise here....

See what $0 down, 2yr lease terms MB Credit will offer on S63....one can "lock-in" costs of 2yrs of use (and much cheaper for sales tx purposes in CA to lease)....and who wants to own/drive any >2 yo car anyway???

WSH

Well said....

600s are for those (typically >70yo) who just want a fast, comfortable, prestigious limo w/elegant leather/Alcantara interior finishes...

Even w/AMG body kit a 600 is worthless to an enthusiast....most enthusiasts value both straight-line and twisties perf/precision.....so value of AMG's steering/brakes/ABC calibr/shiftpoints/throttle tip-in/sport seats/sport steering wheel/exhaust note, etc etc all make the driving experience of a 63 or 65 greatly superior to that of any 600, no matter how fast or how many cylinders....

And 600/63/65 will all likely have poor resale value (used buyers of such cars tend to have "different" socio-economics than repeat new buyers of such cars )....most smart buyers know that in advance; decide value of car's driving experience vs costs....and choose cars and lease terms to best match driving desires vs financial value judgement....

bfnnrgn

You may think whatever you want, but the 600 is directly competing against the AMG model. It's been cannibilizing AMG sales since the beginning and it will continue to do so. There is nothing unique or special about a V8, no matter how big. Big V8s have been around for a very long time. As for high reving V8 with "monster" torque you realize the 63 has less than the 55k it replaced and the 600 has ~100 more torque than even the 55k. The 63 is outclassed by the 600. Here in the US HP sells cars, handling is not even an afterthought. Turns? What are those?

You ever talk to an AMG owner, a new one and not a long time enthusiast? They went in and wanted the fastest. They went in not having a clue what AMG was or that it even existed. I did, when I went to the dealership all I knew was I wanted this model of Mercedes and I wanted the fastest one they made. So I bought an AMG. Had no idea what it was, so do other new owners if you talk to them. You think people bought M3s because it was an M? M5, they buy it because it says M or because it has a 500HP V10? You think it would be as appealing if it had a 500HP V8? Doubtful. The extra cylinders give you bragging rights, it seems more exotic. That's what people want, the flash. The V12 has more flash and appeal and hint of exoticness than a V8 could ever hope to have. Thats right, people are shallow. People will pick a hemi over a standard V8 because it says Hemi. They'll pick the V10 over the V8 because it's a V10. They'll pick the V12 over any of them because it's a V12 and it sounds "cooler" than saying I have a V8. And the Joneses next door will be jealous because they they don't have something cool like a V12 and AMG means nothing to them. And at the end of the day, that's all that matters to the majority of people.

I'm on my 4th AMG car. I'll be straight honest with you. If I was given the choice between an E63 and an E600 it wouldn't even be a contest. V12 TT, hell yes!

norb

I'd order a S600 ONLY IF I could order the AMG appearance package from the S550. Do you think there is a reason that MBUSA won't allow you to do this? Yea, because it would kill AMG sales.

srice

I'm a DRIVER so I'm getting an S63.

If I was a RIDER, I'd get the S600.

AMG (performance, handling, looks) > MB (solid, comfortable, competent)

Ted Baldwin

..........I think the obsession with anything with an AMG badge is causing some people not to be open minded. The mere fact we are discussing this on this board is an indication that indeed, there are people who don't think the S63 is a better car than the S600. The typical response of course from the other camp is....those that prefer S600 just don't understand or appreciate AMG. You have S500, S550 with AMG package, S600, S63, S65. You don't have to be wise man to see that somewhere in there the S63 is lost. Many will either buy the S550 or the S65. The S63 even with an AMg badge will suffer in sales especially if the S600 gets an AMG appearance package. Hence the answer to your question as to why the AMG treatment is available for the 550 not the S600. But don't expect anyone that prefers anything with an AMG badge to agree with you. Even if MB adds an S64AMG with V6 and an S62AMG with a 4 cylinder engine into the mix, they still won't see why a car enthusiast might prefer the S600. It will be AMG all the way, nomatter what.

Ted

pmrogers

I'll step in as someone who has ordered a maxed out S63. For me, the 600 is simply too boring from an exterior styling and handling standpoint. While I'm not exactly chicken at 38, I do feel like the 600 is primarily a car for old people who like power, vs. the 63 as a car for younger people who like 4 doors and luxury.

I'm not 100% convinced that the S63 is the right car for me (see my 997TT post), but for cars that combine 4 doors and luxury with high performance, the S63 is the ultimate to me. Now I just need to decide whether luxury+perf >= pure perf .

Paul

SEXYBEEST

i say lease it as well and be done with it in 2 years and then lease the next best thing

Autobahn-Maniac

Plan to loose around $40-$50K within the first 6 months after driving the car off the lot. Caveat...it better not have more then 5K miles on it. There are 5 S65s on eBay and no one has sold one yet. The top of the food chain gets small when you are looking at paying $200K+ once you pay T&L. Lease or buy the car still cost $200K. Most people that buy $200K cars have a net worth of ~ $2-3M and also have everything else in life covered. If you don't you are pretty much over your head. JMHO

So as they say "if you have to ask how much" you will loose on the car put the money somewhere else and buy a nice used 2 year low mileage car and let the other guy take the hit.