Hey All,

While waiting for my S63 (it's finally on the water, at least), I've started second guessing myself. Yesterday I saw an example of what Porsche is capable of on interior appointments, in a 997 C4S with leather _everything_ -- basically it is equal to a designo 600 plus a notch, with leather on the door sills, mirror, dome light, etc. I have a small resentment with the S63 that ~140k is getting me a plastic dash and the 3rd-tier model in the line, 7th-tier from the mfctr.

So... applying a bit of my advanced math skills, I realized that I could get into a turbo 997 with a world-class interior for about the same price as the S63 that is largely plastic. There is a definite appeal for me in getting the absolute best a manufacturer has to offer.

I know this is a ridiculous question, given how different the S and 911 objectives are, but I'd appreciate any input on the best car for me. Some salient data:
* This will be my only car, and 150k is my absolute cap. Anything more gets me into monthly payments, which I will not do for any car.
* I place high priority on acceleration, interior quality, exterior appearance, and handling. Technology gadgets and uniqueness are much lower priorities.
* The NSX was my overall favorite car so far. Impeccable build and reliability, fantastic handling, terrific exhaust note, fairly quiet, lacking only power.
* The SL55 was great on the accelleration side, but disappointing on reliability, interior finish, noise levels.

Thoughts?

Thanks again,
Paul

 

Just one question: What about interior SPACE? Those two cars are very different...

It is correct that you can basically customize every screw on the 997 Turbo, but by doing so, you will easily be out of budget (a 997TT with all bells and whistles is +180K).

Have you considered a S600? Once again, I don't know how important space is...but since you mentioned it will be your only car, space might be an issue.

 

Space is appealing but not essential. We do also have a Range Rover in the family, which is passablle for rear space, though not great. The way I think about it is that, if the vehicle is going to have 4 seats, it should have enough room for someone my size (6'3") to sit comfortably behind me. The S is the only remotely-decent performance and luxury car that meets this criteria.

Exterior appearance matters a lot. Here, the S63 and 997TT are equal in my eyes. The S600 is far too staid for me.

I also highly value quietness, interior appearance, and ride smoothness. Until the C4S I saw yesterday, I thought that neither of the first two were available in any sports car < 150k. Now, I see that sports-car interior can handily exceed the non-designo S. Ride smoothness on the 911 with PASM is within threshold for me, unlike all of the M bimmers.

I guess I'm starting to feel like the 997TT represents perfection in its category, whereas the S63 may have too many compromises for my expectations of the price point: it isn't perfectly luxurious (plastic dash and doors), it doesn't have the complete raft of technology features (no lane departure warning, rain-sensing wipers, or driver monitoring), and performance may be a big step down from my previous cars (not sure about this, if it can handle sweeping hillside curves as well as my M45 I'd be fully satisfied).

It seems to come down to space, quietness and luxury gizmos on the S vs. quality of interior appearance and ultimate performance on the 911. If someone would just smuggle me an S600 with the AMG body kit, I wouldn't have to suffer through all of this decision process

Paul

 

S65?

 

997TT all the way if you don't need the extra space. You can get a very nicely loaded 997TT for under $140K.

 

Had that on my mind as well but I guess that won't go together with the 150K-budget..

 

Had a $150K 997TT w/virtually every leather option and PCCB, etc

Also had '07 SL65 and curr have '07 CL600....and waiting for '08 CL63 and then for '08 CL65....suspect I'll end up going back to CL63 if CL65's real-world traction is as poor as my SL65's was....

Have owned 3-4 new S/CL's in past 14mos and found quality/reliability levels to be among best ever....MB clearly has solved its quality issues of past 5-10 yrs w/the new S/CL platforms (SL is now a relative relic even after its '07 mid-cycle refresh)....

Not sure where this plastic is in S63 that you mention....my guess is S63 will be about as leather/Alcantara covered as S600/65.....

997TT's perf issues are turbo lag that's very apparent in urban freeway passing maneuvers (very weak vs 63/55/600/65 in mid-range instant response); awful exhaust note (sounds like a Honda/Toyota econobox); and no paddleshifters.....but steering and PCCB are some of best on planet....only rival is 599 w/CCM on those fronts....

Even w/all leather options, 997TT is not in same league as S/CL600/63/65 in elegance/comfort/utility.....eval key fobs, ventil/massaging seats, HK stereo, Bluetooth, iPod compat, sat radio, TeleAid, adult-sized fuel tank and trunk, real back seat, ground clearance, quality of the buttons/switchgear, etc etc....

Don't know of any car today at any price w/level of interior quality/ergonomics of today's CL/S600/63/65.....examine a $340K loaded 599 closely and one will see a lot of Fiat parts bin buttons/switches/trim pieces and safety systems similar to those of a 10yo Honda/Toyota.... amidst the leather/stitchwork and carbon fiber....and quality levels varying perhaps daily based upon the legendary Italian work ethic....

And $150K 997TT's have similar deprec as do 600/63/65.....assume trade-in value of 60-65% MSRP after one yr, no matter mileage.....

 

Thanks, WSH. This is super helpful feedback.

Regarding the plastics, my understanding is that S63 interior trim will be same as a base 550 except for custom stitching pattern on the seats. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the only way to get a leather dash and doors is to go 600/65 or designo.

I suspect I'll see the S63 in person and put all this concern about it looking less than high-end inside behind me. Then I'll need to take it out to whip around a few corners hard and take a sweeping highway interchange flyover at speed to convince myself that it doesn't feel ponderously heavy. As long as it doesn't handle significantly _worse_ than my M45, it will probably be the car I take home.

Paul

 

paul, i've had some of the same cars you mention and agree with some of your comments and differ with others. i've been fortunate in that all of my mb's have been trouble free and built to a satisfyingly high standard. i've had a number of porsches - most recently some tt's - and while i enjoyed them i found several diappointing things:
depreciation is stiff!
build quality, contrary to received opinion, is not a lot better than the new zo6 corvette. particularly look at the "aluminum" switch gear that is nothing but painted, cheap plastic. there is NO comparison between new s class interior and porsche
porsche is the most rapacious company imaginable on options; for example they charge several hundred dollars for interior floor well lights.
porsche definitely outhandles an s class, though i've been very pleased with the handling of mine.
porsche has wonderfully tactile steering and superlative brakes ( but so does s65, which stops as short as a zo6).

in sum, if i had one car to serve all my needs, i would go with mb.
have you looked at the new zo6? very impressive and about 1/2 the price of a porsche with equal or superior performance.
good luck with your choice.

 

I have a 997TT.

Its true you can get just about every interior piece in leather. But that's not what's going to make your turbo $180K. Its the special colors that make it expensive. But if you stick to the stock colored leather pieces, it won't cost more than $140K. I just got some basic peices in leather, the bigger plastic pieces and I love it. There are others that get more leather which also look great, expecially the hand stiching. I say go for it.

 

Thanks again, everyone, for the input.

I spent the weekend driving: Porsche, A8L W12, S550, 750Li. I also had the chance to sit in a 760 with the BMW Individual package.

I've eliminated the Porsche and other pure sports cars due to daily utility and comfort. The new contender in my book is the 760. The 750 in manual mode really knocked my socks off in terms of driving fun-factor and was only a smidge shy on power.

The Audi was a huge disappointment. Best interior-- and OMG what a stereo!-- but handling was miserable. I know that several reviewers rate it higher than BMW or Merc on handling, but in terms of road feel and fun, it was a distant last. Subjectively, it had no more acceleration than the base 750 or S550, and it was also shockingly noisy at highway speed.

In my current thinking, the 760 w/Individual package is leading. For about the same price as the S63 I can get the equivalent of an S600 w/AMG kit. I also feel like the exterior lines and the instrument cluster on the 760 may prove to be a bit more timeless than the current S.

I'd love to hear thoughts from anyone patient enough to sit through my ridiculous indecisiveness .

Paul

 

Hi Paul --

A couple of thoughts because i have been looking at the same options you have:

a) I have a 5 yr old 911 which i am keeping for fun and roof down weekend runs, has been my daily driver but doesn't work anymore with kids, family etc

b) I think the A8 W12 is gorgeous, but i think the right comparable for the S63 is the S8. My partner just bought one, and i took it for an extended test drive and was very impressed. Lots of zip, feels light, nice handling, incredible sound as you point out (cool effect of speaker and nav screen popping up when you turn it on)

c) I owned a new 2006 M5, but ended up being a lemon that BMW bought back from me for full MSRP. Great driving car but didn't like styling and burned by owning a lemon. Not elegant enough for $105k fully loaded

d) Interior of the individual BMWs nice, but i am bored with the styling -- the new 7 series has been out with basically no updates for 4-5 years now

e) I like the look of the new S calss, especially with AMG treatment, and am optomistic about the S63

Regards

Amos

 

I was walking into the MB dealer to decline the S63 when I noticed an 07 S600 that had been turned in earlier that day. In black on black and in person I decided the 600 was not too staid after all, and of course it answered all of my concerns about interior quality.

I'll sneak in a couple of pics here even though I'm on the wrong forum.

First, the interior leather appointments that I decided I couldn't live without on the 63: leather that extends across the entire dash, glove box door, and side doors top to bottom.



Even the boring stock wheels have grown on me:



Thanks again, everyone, for all the input.

Paul

 

A beautiful car, but change the wheels!

 

Nice car. Very understated. Won't garner many looks with the stock wheels, but when spending ~$140k some people might actually prefer not to be noticed.

 

I swapped out the wheels for stock 19" multispoke with performance tires. Prettier wheels, IMO, and yet more understated now: even an MB afficionado won't be able to distinguish it from a 550 at any distance.

The handling improvement going to 19" summer tires is also quite noticeable.






Cheers,
Paul

 

If you hav'nt seen a S-Class with the Mystic White Designo Package your missing out. The paint and the interior are completely top notch. It has been discussed in another thread and there are some pictues which are nice but you have to see it in person. The metallic fleck in the white paint is a nice subtle touch and the black pano roof is the icing on the cake.

 

I don't quite get it. You state the Acura NSX was your favorite care of all time with the exception of lack of power. Personally the NSX is the worst looking vehicle anyone every made with the worst cheapest looking interior appointments since the yugo. The 63 is pretty good for the money, the 65 is better but you stated 150k tops so unless you go secondary market for last years 65 that won't work. The 997.... Great sports car. Always loved driving the older 930's though. When they went to the AWD they ruined the excitement of driving down twisty roads in the rain and having the rear end beat the front end through the curve. Now they call it drifting, back then we called it testing your limits and hoping your father didn't catch you doing that crap. And that brings up other factors you should consider. A friend of mine got "T-boned" in his 2006 TT 911. Light damage I thought. 3 months and 35k later he got back something he couldn't give away thanks to a chick in a honda. He ended up selling it for 66k and getting a SL65. Plus a 911 will attract unwanted attention where a Benz usually "flies under the police radar".

 

I did get to see one and the interior didn't work for me visually: top notch materials of course, but too white, and I'm not a fan of piano lacquer wood. I have to say I did love the exterior, though, and don't normally care for white cars.

You may have different taste in vehicles than me . I found the NSX interior to be just as nice as the 03 SL55, nicer in some respects like seat quality, door sill treatments, instrument cluster appeal (the brushed aluminum backing panel was cool), better to have no nav at all than a 4" screen, etc. Both cars had way too many plastic panels and buttons. Neither was good as a full leather 911, and of course the S600 is a world above them all.