S65 Heat Exchanger and pump
10-29-2013, 04:09 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
S65 Heat Exchanger and pump
Has anyone installed their own HE/pump on an S65? if so, i'm looking for pics/install tips. please keep in mind, its a completely different system the the 55's
10-29-2013, 04:15 PM
#2
10-29-2013, 04:57 PM
#5
Shardul,
That is the same setup I have. I also have the bigger intercoolers and HE so I wired two pumps--one before the HE and one after. There is absolutely no heat soaking at all. Driving the car hard all day long with ambient temp @50 F, I get 82-84 F intake air temps anytime you hit the throttle.
There is too much liquid in the system for one pump to push all that.
The addition of the other pump makes circulation instant!
Been there done that..and I really think one big pump doesn't help the situation that much considering all the hoses, coolers, etc creating resistance to flow. Two pumps is the way to go my friend.
That is the same setup I have. I also have the bigger intercoolers and HE so I wired two pumps--one before the HE and one after. There is absolutely no heat soaking at all. Driving the car hard all day long with ambient temp @50 F, I get 82-84 F intake air temps anytime you hit the throttle.
There is too much liquid in the system for one pump to push all that.
The addition of the other pump makes circulation instant!
Been there done that..and I really think one big pump doesn't help the situation that much considering all the hoses, coolers, etc creating resistance to flow. Two pumps is the way to go my friend.
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10-29-2013, 05:17 PM
#10
Once the coolant leaves the pump it travels in a steel pipe located on top of the exhaust manifolds ?!?! Who's the genius who thought of that? I have touched that pipe at idle and it is on fire.!! We are supposed to have cool temps going into the intercoolers not to reheat after it cooled down..whats the point.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I took 3/4" heater hose and ran it next to the fenders. Best mod anyone can ever do. To get far away from the exhaust heat as much as possible. Used about 20' of hose and took about 2 hrs to do.
Anyways, to make a long story short, I took 3/4" heater hose and ran it next to the fenders. Best mod anyone can ever do. To get far away from the exhaust heat as much as possible. Used about 20' of hose and took about 2 hrs to do.
10-29-2013, 08:08 PM
#13
It looks like your supplemental HE mounts were in a different spot then mine and we are also comparing CL65 to S65. I don't know how different the bumper support is, but I was able to remove the oil cooler triangular brackets and reuse the same holes with longer bolts to attach the flat tabs on the top of my supplemental HE. I then hung the oil cooler in front with little angle clips. I only have a single CM-30, but would consider additional pumps if I were to piggy back another set of stock I/C or if I were to add a trunk tank. Relocating the I/C lines buried between the heads and exhaust has been mentioned in the past. It seems to be a no brainer that most don't address. Good luck and be sure to get a proper bleed otherwise you won't see the results you are looking for.
11-03-2013, 04:10 PM
#15
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm a bit worried about relocating the coolant lines.
On the face of it, it seems like a great idea, but were they put there for a reason?
They sit between the turbo charger and the coil pack - one is very hot, and one suffers from getting too hot.
I suspect that the stock lines tend to provide some protection to the coil packs, shielding them from the worst of the heat.
Its one of the reasons I suggest running the pump continuously - so that the coolant lines are kept cool all the time, and not just when the IAT's are up.
Right now (this weekend) I'm re-plumbing all my IC pipes, to get away from tight bends and Tees. I'm also adding a header tank with permenant bleed connections to the schrader valve ports (but with bleed nipples fitted instead of schrader valves). However, the coolant lines are staying alongside the exhaust.
Nick
On the face of it, it seems like a great idea, but were they put there for a reason?
They sit between the turbo charger and the coil pack - one is very hot, and one suffers from getting too hot.
I suspect that the stock lines tend to provide some protection to the coil packs, shielding them from the worst of the heat.
Its one of the reasons I suggest running the pump continuously - so that the coolant lines are kept cool all the time, and not just when the IAT's are up.
Right now (this weekend) I'm re-plumbing all my IC pipes, to get away from tight bends and Tees. I'm also adding a header tank with permenant bleed connections to the schrader valve ports (but with bleed nipples fitted instead of schrader valves). However, the coolant lines are staying alongside the exhaust.
Nick
11-03-2013, 10:38 PM
#16
Member
Thread Starter
heres where i'm at so far. got the secondary radiator remounted and the plumbing done for the HE. also if you have never used a vacu-fill system for a cooling system, U NEED TO!
works amazing and no bleeding issues.
works amazing and no bleeding issues.
11-04-2013, 05:54 AM
#17
MBWorld Fanatic!
So you need proper filling equipment to bleed the V12TT IC system, you certainly can’t just fill and top it up like a proper engine cooling system. My experience is that it’s extremely difficult: you can get a feel for this by removing a charge cooler, turn it upside-down and try to get all the water out. It's like the opposite of getting all the air out: almost impossible – there’s always a bit of water sloshing around inside.
Both the S600 & S65 HE’s are also obvious air-traps, with both inlet and outlet relatively low down, quite unlike any radiator. There’s really no way of filling them without a vacuum filler. I re-read the fill and bleed procedure in the M275 Training Document a bit more closely, and it seems that MB do use a vacuum filling system. I also looked at a couple of commercial vacuum fillers available in the UK. These all run off compressed air, so they can’t achieve that much vacuum - about 80 to 85kPa – therefore there’s still 15% of the air left in the system, so air locks will be reduced rather than eliminated. It’s good enough for Mercedes though, and vacuum fillers aren’t expensive, so I think the message is that if you want to play with your V12TT IC system, you should get a vacuum filler.
My system is rather different – I use an upside-down BMW X3 engine radiator for the HE, and bleed it with the drain valve. I removed the stock filler and replaced it with a small header tank, and the IC fill ports bleed directly into the header. The header fill pipe is connected to the (low pressure) return side of the IC’s, and the bleed lines are connected to the feed side, so they’re pressurized by the pump. I haven’t run it yet, but I think it’s what an IC system ought to be.
I use a BMW/Pierburg CWA-200 coolant pump, but the IC’s seem to be throttling it too much, so I’ve also got a CWA-100 (the Renntech pump). I’ll do a shoot-out between them and the Bosch shortly – I’m expecting the smaller CWA-100 to achieve the best flow. The Stuart Turner 12/50 and Stuart EMP WP29 pumps seem to be the biggest IC pumps around, but I’m sticking to Pierburg to take advantage of my customized Tecomotive pump controller (thermostatic, adjustable temp, adjustable flow).
I have a nasty feeling that I’ve spent more time under the hood than driving this car, so I’d like to redress that imbalance shortly.
Nick
Edit: Scrub all that – vacuum fillers are dead cheap and common, all you have to do is search Google, Amazon or Ebay for the right thing:
Cooling system filler
Cooling system refill
Cooling system refiller
and you get loads of returns, many of them too cheap not to own: a no-brainer for any V12TT owner. As ever – no need for the proprietary MB dealer solution.
Both the S600 & S65 HE’s are also obvious air-traps, with both inlet and outlet relatively low down, quite unlike any radiator. There’s really no way of filling them without a vacuum filler. I re-read the fill and bleed procedure in the M275 Training Document a bit more closely, and it seems that MB do use a vacuum filling system. I also looked at a couple of commercial vacuum fillers available in the UK. These all run off compressed air, so they can’t achieve that much vacuum - about 80 to 85kPa – therefore there’s still 15% of the air left in the system, so air locks will be reduced rather than eliminated. It’s good enough for Mercedes though, and vacuum fillers aren’t expensive, so I think the message is that if you want to play with your V12TT IC system, you should get a vacuum filler.
My system is rather different – I use an upside-down BMW X3 engine radiator for the HE, and bleed it with the drain valve. I removed the stock filler and replaced it with a small header tank, and the IC fill ports bleed directly into the header. The header fill pipe is connected to the (low pressure) return side of the IC’s, and the bleed lines are connected to the feed side, so they’re pressurized by the pump. I haven’t run it yet, but I think it’s what an IC system ought to be.
I use a BMW/Pierburg CWA-200 coolant pump, but the IC’s seem to be throttling it too much, so I’ve also got a CWA-100 (the Renntech pump). I’ll do a shoot-out between them and the Bosch shortly – I’m expecting the smaller CWA-100 to achieve the best flow. The Stuart Turner 12/50 and Stuart EMP WP29 pumps seem to be the biggest IC pumps around, but I’m sticking to Pierburg to take advantage of my customized Tecomotive pump controller (thermostatic, adjustable temp, adjustable flow).
I have a nasty feeling that I’ve spent more time under the hood than driving this car, so I’d like to redress that imbalance shortly.
Nick
Edit: Scrub all that – vacuum fillers are dead cheap and common, all you have to do is search Google, Amazon or Ebay for the right thing:
Cooling system filler
Cooling system refill
Cooling system refiller
and you get loads of returns, many of them too cheap not to own: a no-brainer for any V12TT owner. As ever – no need for the proprietary MB dealer solution.
Last edited by Welwynnick; 11-04-2013 at 03:16 PM.
11-05-2013, 10:39 AM
#18
MBWorld Fanatic!
On the other hand, maybe we could simply use a refrigerant pump?
They produce a proper vacuum, and get 99.99% of the air out, instead of just 90%. They're not that expensive either.
Maybe there's an obvious reason why MB don't use them? Perhaps anti freeze contaminates the pump oil??
Nick
Edit: Or then again - a vacuum brake bleeder?
Edit 2: On reflection, I don't think a rotary/refrigeration vacuum would be suitable for an IC system. Its not the same sort of application as an AC system at all. An AC system is meant to be dry, and an IC system is meant to be wet. You'd never get all the water out, and that would stop the pump achieving a proper vacuum. I believe rotary pumps don't like too much water anyway, and a compressed air pump won't mind in the slightest. I think it comes back to using a conventional cooling refiller system connected to the IC filler. The Schrader valves would have to be stopped off, otherwise they'd simply let air.
Edit 3: Thinking about it a little more, there isn't actually any need to completely evacuate an IC system. If you can get the pressure in the system down to about 5kPa, the water will start to boil if the weather is warm, say 90F. Therefore the system will completely fill with water vapour. And when you refill the system with water, that water vapour will simply condense as liquid, leaving NO air in the system! Brilliant. You do need at least a 95% vacuum though, 85% won't do it - the temperature would have to be about 135F.
They produce a proper vacuum, and get 99.99% of the air out, instead of just 90%. They're not that expensive either.
Maybe there's an obvious reason why MB don't use them? Perhaps anti freeze contaminates the pump oil??
Nick
Edit: Or then again - a vacuum brake bleeder?
Edit 2: On reflection, I don't think a rotary/refrigeration vacuum would be suitable for an IC system. Its not the same sort of application as an AC system at all. An AC system is meant to be dry, and an IC system is meant to be wet. You'd never get all the water out, and that would stop the pump achieving a proper vacuum. I believe rotary pumps don't like too much water anyway, and a compressed air pump won't mind in the slightest. I think it comes back to using a conventional cooling refiller system connected to the IC filler. The Schrader valves would have to be stopped off, otherwise they'd simply let air.
Edit 3: Thinking about it a little more, there isn't actually any need to completely evacuate an IC system. If you can get the pressure in the system down to about 5kPa, the water will start to boil if the weather is warm, say 90F. Therefore the system will completely fill with water vapour. And when you refill the system with water, that water vapour will simply condense as liquid, leaving NO air in the system! Brilliant. You do need at least a 95% vacuum though, 85% won't do it - the temperature would have to be about 135F.
Last edited by Welwynnick; 11-06-2013 at 06:18 PM.
05-04-2014, 06:21 AM
#20
Member
I bought a CL600 w216 and I am looking for upagrades on this car what upgrades do you have to battle with heat?
)
05-05-2014, 02:01 PM
#22
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05-05-2014, 03:34 PM
#24
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07-07-2018, 01:13 AM
#25
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S65 AMG
Hello. Fot the first time today after owning my S65 for 5 years I experienced the heat soak issue .And my S65 would not make power.where are you guys getting your upgraded heat exchangers? Thank you.
