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High flowed sl65 black series turbos with manifold and intake port work, custom intercoolers which have been isolated to each bank running individual heat exchangers with thermo fan, expansion tank and water pump (new volume is 7.7litres per bank),all water lines and fittings for intercoolers are -12, newer model coil packs, cooler heat range spark plugs, custom intakes to front grille, 3inch dump pipes with straight pipes, quaife lsd, transmission upgrade, tcu tune, Ecu tune. Car has has boost issues so I have been back and forth adjusting rod length so factory control is accurate and now I have that the bovs had to be replaced as they didn't hold boost on higher rpms! I also have made custom y pipe for intercoolers as it keeps coming off under load and bleeding boost so hopefully all fixed this weekend and back to the dyno next week with stronger numbers! Cars only ever been on 93ron pump fuel
Hey Joe Blo I wanted to know if you knew if a w215 2000 cl500 has a resonator I'm getting mixed responses. If you don't kno that's fine any help? Thanks.
Hi vinnie, looking at the diagram I would be inclined to say yes it does have resignators as the first restriction looks to be cats up front which have o2 sensors straight after it and then the next online are your resignators. Wouldn't hurt to remove them as there no more o2 sensors after them.
High flowed sl65 black series turbos with manifold and intake port work, custom intercoolers which have been isolated to each bank running individual heat exchangers with thermo fan, expansion tank and water pump (new volume is 7.7litres per bank),all water lines and fittings for intercoolers are -12, newer model coil packs, cooler heat range spark plugs, custom intakes to front grille, 3inch dump pipes with straight pipes, quaife lsd, transmission upgrade, tcu tune, Ecu tune. Car has has boost issues so I have been back and forth adjusting rod length so factory control is accurate and now I have that the bovs had to be replaced as they didn't hold boost on higher rpms! I also have made custom y pipe for intercoolers as it keeps coming off under load and bleeding boost so hopefully all fixed this weekend and back to the dyno next week with stronger numbers! Cars only ever been on 93ron pump fuel
thanks Joe Blo that's just what the dealership said. It has no 02 sensors. But this Indy mechanic said it would be illegal for me to remove them? How would I do a test to see if they have o2 sensors? And do you think that if I do go ahead and remove these resonators it will trip the first cats. Thanks alot. Oh and did you remove your? Thanks Joe Blo
Your Indy has it wrong for removing the resignators as they are not for emissions but instead resignate sound only. Nothing after the o2 sensor can affect its reading as exhaust gas flows in one direction only. Your parts diagram you initially showed only shows one o2 sensor just after first cats (labeled part 170). The parts that is listed for the cat converter is listed more then likely as a whole part which includes the resignators so I'd lt wont have to be welded in but instead bolted in.
Lookig at that picture its amazing the changes between the W215 and W216 exhaust systems from the factory. The W216 does not have that bottle-neck of and overly long single section nor does it have the resonators. Well not that I can remember anyway. My car has the Speedriven down pipes and all that eliminated was the cats.
That's definately a 500 exhaust. The 600/65 has single cats closer to the turbos, nothing at the base of the downpipes. The 65 has no resonators, the 600 does have resonators in the cavity before the diff, on a 65 it's straight pipe back there. Mufflers are the same on both.
2012 CL63 2015 Tesla Model S 1963 Lincoln Continental conv 1975 Pontiac Grand Prix
Originally Posted by LaserSVT
Lookig at that picture its amazing the changes between the W215 and W216 exhaust systems from the factory. The W216 does not have that bottle-neck of and overly long single section nor does it have the resonators. Well not that I can remember anyway. My car has the Speedriven down pipes and all that eliminated was the cats.
What car do you have again. I have a 12 cl63 and havent found any down pipes for mine
What car do you have again. I have a 12 cl63 and havent found any down pipes for mine
That's because nobody makes bolt on turbo back down pipes. You can find catless down pipes. I just had a custom set fabbed for my 12 cl63 turbo back. I have some pics of it with the engine out at there shop.
Last edited by 1ForcedBenz; 04-29-2017 at 09:14 AM.
That turbo pipe looks like the cks performance turbo back downpipes. I have purchased a set, will try to install them without removing the engine on my cls. From the info I gathered, they are weistec replicas but much much cheaper.
Your right.
CKS, BS'd and told me when I purchased them it would fit the cl63/s63. They are a horrid company to deal with. Once the shop pulled the engine, they didn't fit at all, they just sold me a set that I believe fits the E/CLS only.
They cut off and reused the turbo flanges and welded up a section of stainless pipe that was able to fit. The way they came was putting the turbo downpipe right into the subframe with not even a chance of it working. And the rest of the cat back system was garbage to with not being 4igjt for my application. So all and all I paid, waited 4+ weeks and in the end all that was able to be used was the turbo flange and they cut off the v bands and reused those as well.
Last edited by 1ForcedBenz; 04-29-2017 at 05:22 PM.
This seems to be the perfect thread for my question because a lot of people with high horsepower and high torque cars are gathered.
I would appreciate if those of you who run 1200Nm (880 ft lb) or more on a stock transmission were willing to share their experience. Is the transmission (722.6) able to cope with this amount of torque without sacrificing durability in a great extend? I do not drag race the car from a stand still and drive it on street tires only, so the transmission won't have to deal with high stress scenarios.
Last edited by black-series; 09-01-2017 at 03:12 AM.
I'm still running the stock trans. Over 250 track passes and 20,000 miles since I did the EECU/TCU tunes and freed up the exhaust. Heading to the track to hopefully make another 40 or so passes in the 10's on drag radials this weekend.
Is the transmission (722.6) able to cope with this amount of torque without sacrificing durability in a great extend? I do not drag race the car from a stand still and drive it on street tires only, so the transmission won't have to deal with high stress scenarios.
Transmissions can be considered by two capacities - input torque and output torque, though the latter is rarely specified. It's more a matter of whether the transmission is designed for a car or a truck.
In the case of a car, yes, the driven wheels do act as a safety valve, preventing the output gear-set being heavily loaded by the worst case combination of max engine torque, max gear multiplication AND max TC multiplication, which is not usually realised in practice, even with an untuned car.
However, in the higher gears, full torque and some multiplication can be applied, and that may be the worst case scenario.
The 772.6 has three gear-sets that pass torque in sequence from one to another. As each gear set applies it's own reduction, the torque transmitted increases as it goes through the transmission. Therefore, at the front end, the input gear-set has to deal with the least torque (the TC output), and the final/output gear-set has to deal with the most. The output gear-set (and it's attendant clutch and brake) are accordingly more robust.
So you're right, avoiding drag slicks and racing starts will help to prevent over-loading the output with a tuned engine, but remember that the worst case condition may actually be full torque on the input in top gear.
Thanks Nick for the insight, I did not think about that. What makes it worse is the fact that more torque is only really useful in higher gears and because of the traction problems the car has at lower speeds. So the worst condition for the gearbox is the one that is most useful on the roads. Air resistance will add to the stress in large amounts as well because it puts more and more load on the transmission the faster you go.
To be honest the transmission is the one thing that puzzles me most on this car. Most of the big tuners in the game told me that the transmission is almost indestructible, even without hardware modifications. This makes me wonder though, why do so many people go through such a great effort and change intercoolers, intakes, he, exhausts and so on to gain around 50-80 horsepower when the car offers 200Nm more without changing a thing, except a tcu tune of course. The car comes with 1200Nm from the factory, so why not use it by removing the limiters in the tcu?
Just a tune alone will net the 50-80hp you mentioned. When modified, you can gain more than double those figures. I don't see just removing torque limits making the car much faster, it may just feel faster and result in more wheel spin. I think you are talking in circles a bit. My question is why would someone want more torque if they are not trying to utilize it? Wheel spin can be minimized with wider wheels and tires with a limited slip differential. The next step is drag radials. Yes, over time it will beat up the transmission along with the drivetrain. I'm not sure what you are looking to achieve, but you are not getting extra acceleration, power or torque without adding more stress to the drivetrain. It comes at a cost that may not be worth it to all, but that is a choice for the individual.
You are absolutely right, more torque doesn't always make sense and you are right about traction issues as well. I completely agree with you on that point. More power is useless if you cannot put it down. Although I do not have traction issues above 150km/h anymore. So I could imagine that 200 additional Nm will make a great difference for the sprint from 200km/h to 300km/h. I would like to make use of the extra torque but only if I do not shorten the life span of the transmission in a great extent. I only want to raise the torque limiter for gear 4 and gear 5, for the lower gears it is pointless.
This is the answer to your question what I want to achieve. Maybe you could give me your opinion on that.
Last edited by black-series; 09-02-2017 at 08:30 AM.
You would have to speak with a tuner to see how torque limits can be removed only in certain gears and not based on rpm.it may require a boost control. The thing that makes our cars so competitive at speed is the abundance of torque and I can see you logic in trying to utilize, but if you look at dyno graphs you'll see that the torque drops off as you approach higher rpms. At the speeds you mention, the motor will not drop into the lower rpms afters shifts you will still be over 4,000 rpms not peak torque. Your best help would be a custom intake reducing the intake restriction the little turbos have to overcome in higher rpms. That causes a boost drop. Raising power and torque levels across the entire rpm range gives you the benefit up top, but it's back to overall stress. Look At some dyno graphs and match the rpm of the shift as it enters the upcoming gear and it will give you a better idea of available torque.
Adapting the torque limits for each gear is no problem, many tuners can do this, I already checked. Concerning the torque drop at high rpms, this I cannot confirm. I have none. The car starts pulling so hard at 4500 rpm all the way into the limiter. That is the reason why I do not want to change a single thing on my car, I do not want to change the torque curve at all. It is perfect as it is.
Brabus who is running 1100Nm on their cars never had a single blown transmission. Other tuners say the transmission is capable of 1200Nm without any issues. So maybe some of those who run those numbers can confirm whether this is true.
Here is a graph of my car from a low reading, load bearing dyno. It has much lower numbers compared to a dynojet, but the point is to look at the curve and see how the torque continues to go down as the RPMs go up. I think overall my torque and horsepower have more under the curve since the car can breath much better. I'm not sure how much of a shift in peaks(if any there is left and right) compared to stock.
Check to see what rpm the motor is at right after a shift and you can gauge roughly the percentage of full torque you are getting at that point. I haven't committed it to memory, but I'd guess around 4200-4600 rpms would be a where you would begin 3rd or 4th gear. the car feels so strong since both TQ and HP are very high.
If you can get a ECU/TCU set up to raise torque limits only in the higher gears, you will still have the concern Nick referred to regarding the input shaft. Its hard to gauge what type of spikes you will see on a shift from a dyno graph. Maybe graphing the shifts on a dyno can help the tuner set the limits in the TCU.
The limit of torque at higher rpms is that we're exceeding the airflow these small turbos can provide. That's why you see full boost at 3k, and tapering off to 15-16psi by redline. They are moving the maximum amount of air but the engine rpms keep increasing so you need more airflow to maintain boost or pressure drops.
The odds of breaking the transmission from sheer torque are pretty low, it's a very strong unit. Most failures are clutches coming apart due to age/wear and lack of maintenance, but at 800+ft/lbs, anything can fail. You rarely see spectacular mechanical failures on this application though.
The additional 200nm at higher speeds is less noticeable than you think, as the car is already producing so much power, and as racehorse mentions, you are above the rpms where you see max torque once you are out of wheelspin speeds anyway.
04-20-2017, 05:02 PM
