SL/R230: Lexus SC430 Better???
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From: Florida
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Re: Karl...eve run your 55 against a C5 vette?
Originally posted by Nighttrain
I'm always curious how the CLK 55 does against C5 vettes, and M5s...how bout M3s?
I'm always curious how the CLK 55 does against C5 vettes, and M5s...how bout M3s?
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From: Atlanta, GA
Lexus GS 450h
Wow, sounds like money does not bring some of ya'll an open mind huh?
The SL is a wonderful car, as it should be, it is 20-30k more. The LExus SC 430 is NOT to be confused with a sports car. And looks are subjective. We could say the 115k SL 55 has the same front end as the 25k C-class hatchback, but we won't.
Benz styling for all intents and purposes now looks Japanese in Execution as the interiors, so who is copying who now?
Nighttrain, most Lexus enthusiets do not consider the SC 430 a SC replacement, it is almost a 2nd car.
And we have many members on our board www.CLublexus.com that own Lexus vehicles because they were simply fed up with German reliability issues and dealer mis-management.
Fact of the matter is Benz has lost a lot of it's luster recently with down-market cars and reliability issues in 2002. That and Benz purists find the new cars are built out of cardboard compared to the older models (look at the older SL and new gen ashtrays, door handles, armrest).
I love Benzs, wonderful cars but if you do not understand that Lexus is the best selling luxury car maker along with being the most reliable new and after 5 years of ownership with the highest customer staisfaction rating, well you cheating yourself.
Nightrain, the original SC 300/400, well Lexus wanted a convertible version BADLY, but the structural rigidity was not up to par, so the SC 430 was designed as one PERIOD. And a SC 300 should show up soon, hardtop only, possibly a whole nother car!
The SL is a wonderful car, as it should be, it is 20-30k more. The LExus SC 430 is NOT to be confused with a sports car. And looks are subjective. We could say the 115k SL 55 has the same front end as the 25k C-class hatchback, but we won't.
Benz styling for all intents and purposes now looks Japanese in Execution as the interiors, so who is copying who now?
Nighttrain, most Lexus enthusiets do not consider the SC 430 a SC replacement, it is almost a 2nd car.
And we have many members on our board www.CLublexus.com that own Lexus vehicles because they were simply fed up with German reliability issues and dealer mis-management.
Fact of the matter is Benz has lost a lot of it's luster recently with down-market cars and reliability issues in 2002. That and Benz purists find the new cars are built out of cardboard compared to the older models (look at the older SL and new gen ashtrays, door handles, armrest).
I love Benzs, wonderful cars but if you do not understand that Lexus is the best selling luxury car maker along with being the most reliable new and after 5 years of ownership with the highest customer staisfaction rating, well you cheating yourself.
Nightrain, the original SC 300/400, well Lexus wanted a convertible version BADLY, but the structural rigidity was not up to par, so the SC 430 was designed as one PERIOD. And a SC 300 should show up soon, hardtop only, possibly a whole nother car!
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Lexus GS 450h
This is my dirty Lexus!
Lexus GS 400
Here is a link to SC 430 pics, enjoy!
http://www.clublexus.com/cgi-bin/pho...rpage=12&user=
Lexus GS 400Here is a link to SC 430 pics, enjoy!
http://www.clublexus.com/cgi-bin/pho...rpage=12&user=
Last edited by 1SICKLEX; Jun 15, 2002 at 05:22 PM.
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2000 W210 E55->2003 R230 SL500->2004 W211 E55->2007 997TT+2007 E63->2010 GLK350->2012 E550 4matic
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Here is a link to SC 430 pics, enjoy!
http://www.clublexus.com/cgi-bin/pho...rpage=12&user=
Here is a link to SC 430 pics, enjoy!
http://www.clublexus.com/cgi-bin/pho...rpage=12&user=
Too bad the SC430 doesn't have half the performance of the, in my opinion, sportier GS430. If I were to get a Lexus, it would be but the GS430. I pick the SL500 over the SC430 simply because of the SL's superior driving dynamics, active and passive safety.
Both Lexus & MB cars do have their fair share of problems, I have been to the Lexus board and have also read all the minor rattles, noises, problems that Lexus dealers can't fix. I'm a car enthusiast and personally don't mind the minor problems now and then, provided that the dealer can fix them. MB, unlike Volvo, Audi, Jaguar and often BMW is that they are serious about debugging their cars listening to complaints from consumers. Many other manufacturers from my experience simply give me the 'this is normal' line which is unacceptable.
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
SC 430 comes in #2, - after SL500, with a better interior, better navigation, better sound system,... and -- for $40,000 less!!
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...6/article.html
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/compa...6/article.html
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From: Florida
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
One more very important consideration.
Quality surves consistently rate LEXUS # 1!
...this J.D. Power & Associates survey confirms this,
unfortunately Mercedes-Benz rates #..........10!
Way to go Toyota, go.
http://www.auto.com/industry/iqs18_20010518.htm
Quality surves consistently rate LEXUS # 1!
...this J.D. Power & Associates survey confirms this,
unfortunately Mercedes-Benz rates #..........10!
Way to go Toyota, go.
http://www.auto.com/industry/iqs18_20010518.htm
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From: castro valley, ca
sl500 1998/ferrari 355gts 1997
MB quality is clearly unacceptable...#10? That sucks. Still...I wouldn't be caught dead in that butt-ugly SC430. Every time I see one on the road I think "Pontiac Aztek".
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From: Atlanta, GA
Lexus GS 450h
Sorry Toyota
THe SC 430 is a Grand Tourer, not to be mistaken for a Performance car. The AMG SL55 can be taken by some as a performance car, but both cars do not offer manual transmissions.
I think the SL is a Grand Tourer to the highest degree. Though most of us probably can drive a 450hp beast FASTER and MORE ACCURATE in an auto than a manual.
SL does have that certain "panache" factor that comes with owning it. To many people, it's worth the extra dough.
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Originally posted by Mark Norton
The SL55 absolutely does have a manual transmission....two switches on the back of the wheel to change gear if you want to and intelligent shift patterns to keep you in control. It also has a locking torque converter.
It may not be a mechanical linkage to the gearbox but you can put it in any gear you like and it will only change when the revs reach the limit. Sounds good to me.
The SL55 absolutely does have a manual transmission....two switches on the back of the wheel to change gear if you want to and intelligent shift patterns to keep you in control. It also has a locking torque converter.
It may not be a mechanical linkage to the gearbox but you can put it in any gear you like and it will only change when the revs reach the limit. Sounds good to me.
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From: Florida
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
I've owned 3 - 2001 SL500s last year. All 3 were technical disasters. Never owned a Lexus, but did own a Supra - really super!
However, the CLK55 AMG fits my 6'2" frame like a glove. Best car I've owned, perfect holistic match.
However, the CLK55 AMG fits my 6'2" frame like a glove. Best car I've owned, perfect holistic match.
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From: San Francisco Bay Area
1999 Mercedes S430, 1993 Lexus SC400, 2003 Lexus ES300
1 SickLex
Hey Sick,
Actually I'm a LONG time member of the clublexus forum.
My name there is Anthracite SC.
I come here for my S430 and for the better forum discussions. =)
In regards to the SC400/430. I agree the 430 is a touring car, and not to be mistaken w/a sports car.
The SL500 is also a touring car, but a more expensive one.
The SL55 is actually a sports CAR. THe thing outruns lamborghini murcielagos, porsche turbos, and ferrari modenas. I think if a car can do that...its steps into the SPORTS category and out of the TOUR category.
If there was an SC430/55 or something that was tuned for SPORT..I'd love to see it.
Until then, I'll be planning for my high HP supercharged OLD SC400
=0 Which will hopefully run w/an SL55
Actually I'm a LONG time member of the clublexus forum.
My name there is Anthracite SC.
I come here for my S430 and for the better forum discussions. =)
In regards to the SC400/430. I agree the 430 is a touring car, and not to be mistaken w/a sports car.
The SL500 is also a touring car, but a more expensive one.
The SL55 is actually a sports CAR. THe thing outruns lamborghini murcielagos, porsche turbos, and ferrari modenas. I think if a car can do that...its steps into the SPORTS category and out of the TOUR category.
If there was an SC430/55 or something that was tuned for SPORT..I'd love to see it.
Until then, I'll be planning for my high HP supercharged OLD SC400
=0 Which will hopefully run w/an SL55
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Originally posted by Mark Norton
Believe me, after you've lived with Ferraris for years, they recalibrate your scale of what "reliable" means. By that standard, Mercedes are super-reliable and if there are teething troubles with the new SL, I can live with it. It's a complex car.
Believe me, after you've lived with Ferraris for years, they recalibrate your scale of what "reliable" means. By that standard, Mercedes are super-reliable and if there are teething troubles with the new SL, I can live with it. It's a complex car.
What does that have to do with the price of rice in the PRC, anyway? hugh?
If you want to know about QUALITY, study Deming. The Japanese car mfrs. did; they score top honors in ALL quality surveys.
You got to get the bugs out before they bite you.
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Lexus GS 450h
HdS500
Nighttrain
Waiting for TOM's to do some engine modifications to the new SC 430 but I am not holding my breath.
Mark Norton
I think Lexus has become the best selling luxury brand in part because it provides a compelling argument to not spend that extra 10-20k for what?
CLK 55 is an awesome machine, I love it. Much better than the new design IMO.
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Originally posted by Mark Norton
You mean like Uncle Bill does with each new version of Windows?
You mean like Uncle Bill does with each new version of Windows?
Read Deming, study Deming, practice Deming! Lexus did... and it shows.
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From: Florida
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Come to the land of plenty. SLs are blanketing this land. They are becoming obstructionists; just can't get ahead of the SL blockade, parade.
Soon, they'll be driving "loaner upgrades", while warranty works are being performed.
Soon, they'll be driving "loaner upgrades", while warranty works are being performed.
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2000 W210 E55->2003 R230 SL500->2004 W211 E55->2007 997TT+2007 E63->2010 GLK350->2012 E550 4matic
SL500 will not disappoint
Originally posted by Mark Norton
If I thought that the SC-430 was the better car, I would buy it, but I don't and I'm not.
If I thought that the SC-430 was the better car, I would buy it, but I don't and I'm not.
Germany cars enthusiasts appreciate their cars' solid chassis, precise handling, active and passive safety, performance, reliability while Japanese car lovers keep on telling the whole world how their cars are of better value, how they never break down, and in Lexus' case, the excellent ML stereo.
I picked the SL500 over the SC430 simply because of the latter's unacceptable driving dynamics, too floaty and ponderous to the point I find it dangerous. Calling a 2 door car a grand tourer does not justify its pathetic handling characteristics.
Last edited by W210; Jun 20, 2002 at 03:11 AM.
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From: castro valley, ca
sl500 1998/ferrari 355gts 1997
I still want the Levinson stereo in my SL. And if Lexus can make that car for $70K, MB should be able to make the SL for that too. I think the SL is way overpriced. I bought one anyways...other than the stereo and the reliability, I think the Lexus sucks. Uglier than Rosie O'Donnell.
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
hwt1964
I won't buy either one. Wish I could get the ML sound into my CLK AMG.
Agree with your first 3 statements; disagree with the last 2.
Be careful of slander; it might come back to bite you!
I won't buy either one. Wish I could get the ML sound into my CLK AMG.
Agree with your first 3 statements; disagree with the last 2.
Be careful of slander; it might come back to bite you!
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From: The Cape
Figured I would comment..
Last February, I was having problems with my 2000 Jaguar XKR, so I figured I would replace it with a SC430 or Sl500. I drove the SL, didn't love the interior. Nice car, very nice, but the NAV is terrible and I travel by car between my houses, in IL and MA, respectively. I travel all around the east coast, need good NAV. Enter Sc430.. I drove it, loved the NAV- touch screen, its awesome. The seats are great, interior beautiful, ML sound a joy to listen.. But it doesn't look great at all...
I then went into the Lexus Showroom and drove around in a Ls430- I loved it.. I decided I was done with converitbles for a while, and wanted a Luxury Sedan (today I want a Luxury sedan with 4wd)... I drove the S500 too, didnt like that NAV or the interior, compared to the Lexus..
One thing I love about the Lexus, is the in disk 6 CD change with great sound- Plus, you can use your NAV and switch between six 6ds at the same time- I hear with Command II you only can choose one, DVD or a CD, unless you buy something to correct it (correct me if Im wrong).
All in all, I choose the new S Class.. Facelift makes it awesome , DVD Nav is what I need, and I need a 4wd system to keep the miles of my 65,000 (and problem free) Lx470.
The new Sl55 rules all, though.
Drive hard.
Last February, I was having problems with my 2000 Jaguar XKR, so I figured I would replace it with a SC430 or Sl500. I drove the SL, didn't love the interior. Nice car, very nice, but the NAV is terrible and I travel by car between my houses, in IL and MA, respectively. I travel all around the east coast, need good NAV. Enter Sc430.. I drove it, loved the NAV- touch screen, its awesome. The seats are great, interior beautiful, ML sound a joy to listen.. But it doesn't look great at all...
I then went into the Lexus Showroom and drove around in a Ls430- I loved it.. I decided I was done with converitbles for a while, and wanted a Luxury Sedan (today I want a Luxury sedan with 4wd)... I drove the S500 too, didnt like that NAV or the interior, compared to the Lexus..
One thing I love about the Lexus, is the in disk 6 CD change with great sound- Plus, you can use your NAV and switch between six 6ds at the same time- I hear with Command II you only can choose one, DVD or a CD, unless you buy something to correct it (correct me if Im wrong).
All in all, I choose the new S Class.. Facelift makes it awesome , DVD Nav is what I need, and I need a 4wd system to keep the miles of my 65,000 (and problem free) Lx470.
The new Sl55 rules all, though.
Drive hard.
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From: Dallas
C32 AMG
I'm sorry, but this thread is just SO strange! Entertaining, though.
A busload of Lexus guys have arrived in the thread to defend their $65K car against a $90K car. A few guys who had a bad experience with the previous model SL chime in.
Mark Norton is comparing "desirable" cars. If all you want is QUALITY (e.g. lack of repairs) then I agree Toyota does a fine job. But there is more to life than that.
A friend was dying to get a Corvette - I told him they were great cars, just bear in mind it will be in the shop a lot. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just a fact of life.
What is "better"? There is a long thread in the W203 forum about whether an Acura RSX is "better" than a C230 Coupe!
If one was demonstrably "better" (counting price and everything) and everyone agreed, no one would buy the "worser" car.
Personally, I've looked at Lexus LS's (bought an Infiniti Q45), GS's (kept the Q), SC's (bought a 993) RX's (bought an ML), LX's (kept the ML) at various points in my life.
Every time I decided against the Lexus because it was so market-driven. No soul except what market people figured would sell. Nice cars, but bland. People appreciate the nice car but they don't think of you as wild or innovative.
But I also have friends who would never give up their Lexus.
They like the fact that it is quiet, it never breaks (not true - they just conveniently forget afterwards, I think)
and
It was CHEAPER than the BENZ they REALLY wanted!!!
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
A busload of Lexus guys have arrived in the thread to defend their $65K car against a $90K car. A few guys who had a bad experience with the previous model SL chime in.
Why not substite Trabant or Yugo for Ferrari?
A friend was dying to get a Corvette - I told him they were great cars, just bear in mind it will be in the shop a lot. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just a fact of life.
What is "better"? There is a long thread in the W203 forum about whether an Acura RSX is "better" than a C230 Coupe!
If one was demonstrably "better" (counting price and everything) and everyone agreed, no one would buy the "worser" car.
Personally, I've looked at Lexus LS's (bought an Infiniti Q45), GS's (kept the Q), SC's (bought a 993) RX's (bought an ML), LX's (kept the ML) at various points in my life.
Every time I decided against the Lexus because it was so market-driven. No soul except what market people figured would sell. Nice cars, but bland. People appreciate the nice car but they don't think of you as wild or innovative.
But I also have friends who would never give up their Lexus.
They like the fact that it is quiet, it never breaks (not true - they just conveniently forget afterwards, I think)
and
It was CHEAPER than the BENZ they REALLY wanted!!!
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
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From: NY
ML 500 Sport
I have been watching this thread grow and grow and wondering why????
I have been telling myself..."don't contribute...don't encourage the thread"...but I can't stand it any more....
This is not even a valid question....Car and Driver did a detailed comparison of the SC430 and guess what...???? with the CLK 430 W208 Cab....and rated the even the older CLK the better of the two....I am sorry but the SL...even the 500 is in a whole different league...Please....Give it a rest!!!
I have been telling myself..."don't contribute...don't encourage the thread"...but I can't stand it any more....
This is not even a valid question....Car and Driver did a detailed comparison of the SC430 and guess what...???? with the CLK 430 W208 Cab....and rated the even the older CLK the better of the two....I am sorry but the SL...even the 500 is in a whole different league...Please....Give it a rest!!!
Last edited by jco-amg; Jun 25, 2002 at 07:21 PM.
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well, i just got back from the dealership. they have a silver sl500 at msrp. after looking at it i decided not to trade in my black sc430 for it. imo the sl500 isnt worth the extra money. exterior does look a little better than the sc, but the sc is not ugly at all with the help of some better wheels and a lowered suspension. the interior of the sl is just not up to par with the lexus. the sound system sucks in the sl. but the sl does have some funky gadgets like keyless go and bi-xenons and stuff like that. but what the sl lacks in the interior, it makes up for it in the exterior.
in fact, my black sc's gwak factor is greater than the silver sl500, proven at the local car show where both cars were right beside each other.(both with wheels of course). body color is another factor too. (imo black and white are the best colors in the world).
anyways, i passed on the deal, even tho the sl500 was for sale at msrp. i couldve also leased it at a very good rate. 20k down and 1100/month. but whatever.
in fact, my black sc's gwak factor is greater than the silver sl500, proven at the local car show where both cars were right beside each other.(both with wheels of course). body color is another factor too. (imo black and white are the best colors in the world).
anyways, i passed on the deal, even tho the sl500 was for sale at msrp. i couldve also leased it at a very good rate. 20k down and 1100/month. but whatever.
Last edited by pot_head; Jun 25, 2002 at 08:00 PM.
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Gawk Factor
I am sure it does have more gawk factor. Everyone sees it and says "My God!!! What a heinously ugly car. Quick, someone crush it and put it out of its misery (well its actually our misery because we have to look at its ugliness)!"
Come on. Wake up (or should I say stop smoking bong hits). You just can't afford the SL and are making excuses.
I think the SL is a bit overpriced, but I would pay anything not to have to drive the SC (I think I even had a nightmare once where I bought an SC in my dream).
Come on. Wake up (or should I say stop smoking bong hits). You just can't afford the SL and are making excuses.
I think the SL is a bit overpriced, but I would pay anything not to have to drive the SC (I think I even had a nightmare once where I bought an SC in my dream).
Last edited by ibanez; Jun 25, 2002 at 08:32 PM.
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Re: Gawk Factor
Originally posted by ibanez
Come on. Wake up (or should I say stop smoking bong hits). You just can't afford the SL and are making excuses.
Come on. Wake up (or should I say stop smoking bong hits). You just can't afford the SL and are making excuses.
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From: Florida
2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
To argue MB luxury car pricing, when we are dealing with perceived value vs. actual value is an exercise in futility.
Additionally, global market forces/trends of supply and demand determine value/msrp. For some too high, for some too low.
As simple and complex as that!...a conundrum.
Additionally, global market forces/trends of supply and demand determine value/msrp. For some too high, for some too low.
As simple and complex as that!...a conundrum.
