SL/R230: Lexus SC430 Better???
07-09-2002, 01:13 AM
#101
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The japanese innovations are in the electronics, you cannot say that mercedes has better navigation system or internal electronics. The germans suck at electronics. The interiors of the lexus cars are top notch and have been compared to rolls royce as being one of the best if not the best interiors made. I don't know about you but I spend most of my time sitting in the car and I enjoy a compfortable and aesthetic interior. The german car interiors are not as nice.
07-09-2002, 09:53 AM
#102
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Stop dreaming!
Get real & Read the INTERNATIONAL PRESS - regarding Mercedes QUALITY PROBLEMS:
http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm
Articles from:
German AutoBild, British Autocar, MBSPY editor, Financial Times, Automotive News, CBS Marketwatch, New York Times, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
QUOTE from THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:
"FRANKFURT -- Mercedes-Benz, famed for its engineering prowess, is suddenly facing tough questions about the quality of its cars, with several surveys showing that the stately German brand may now trail some decidedly down-market competition.
A surprise blow to Mercedes's quality reputation came
last week when a normally secretive study of car quality
in Europe was leaked to a German trade publication.
The report, conducted for the auto makers themselves,
showed Mercedes quality and customer satisfaction
falling since 1999 to levels below Opel,
the German unit of General Motors Corp. and a
brand with one of the worst images in Europe.
A separate German survey ranked the German-built Ford Focus compact car No. 1 in a study of durability during the first three years of a car's life. The survey, conducted by TÜV, a German auto-inspection and research association, put half a dozen Toyota models ahead of the first Mercedes model -- the SLK, which came in 12th."
It's time to stop playing ostrich and acknowledge, that there is a serious quality problem, that you and I are paying for.
Get real & Read the INTERNATIONAL PRESS - regarding Mercedes QUALITY PROBLEMS:
http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm
Articles from:
German AutoBild, British Autocar, MBSPY editor, Financial Times, Automotive News, CBS Marketwatch, New York Times, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
QUOTE from THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:
"FRANKFURT -- Mercedes-Benz, famed for its engineering prowess, is suddenly facing tough questions about the quality of its cars, with several surveys showing that the stately German brand may now trail some decidedly down-market competition.
A surprise blow to Mercedes's quality reputation came
last week when a normally secretive study of car quality
in Europe was leaked to a German trade publication.
The report, conducted for the auto makers themselves,
showed Mercedes quality and customer satisfaction
falling since 1999 to levels below Opel,
the German unit of General Motors Corp. and a
brand with one of the worst images in Europe.
A separate German survey ranked the German-built Ford Focus compact car No. 1 in a study of durability during the first three years of a car's life. The survey, conducted by TÜV, a German auto-inspection and research association, put half a dozen Toyota models ahead of the first Mercedes model -- the SLK, which came in 12th."
It's time to stop playing ostrich and acknowledge, that there is a serious quality problem, that you and I are paying for.
07-09-2002, 12:33 PM
#103
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ok, we are talking about the SL here in this thread. so please read this statement form the link above:
ok, the A-class and the new Vaneo are really not so high-quality. but we are working on that. the results can be seen on our newest products: SL, E-Class, CLK
out customers are buying mercedes-benz like never before. so there can´t be a real big problem.
other company´s have much bigger ones, look at OPEL which is going to be closed be GM. or BMW with there design-trap (3 and 5 series are good but the newer ones like 7 or Z4 are really bad optical)
"The eye wanders about the solid surrounding of wood and leather, which not only because of the high-quality of these materials but also because of the careful finish into the detail makes a first-class impression. And that is Mercedes at its best, a quality feel some series in the lower steps of the Mercedes-hierarchy lack in the youngest past".
out customers are buying mercedes-benz like never before. so there can´t be a real big problem.
other company´s have much bigger ones, look at OPEL which is going to be closed be GM. or BMW with there design-trap (3 and 5 series are good but the newer ones like 7 or Z4 are really bad optical)
07-09-2002, 01:04 PM
#104
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1999 Mercedes S430, 1993 Lexus SC400, 2003 Lexus ES300
Technology and Reliability
Karl, Felix and Toe ,
German cars do innovate and bring out the latest technology. The new SL is the most technologically advanced car out there.
And have you checked out the Maybach???
Japanese cars are innovate too but differently. I think it's a useless debate to say who is MORE innovative. The companies in those countries are aiming for different things.
Specifcally Lexus and Mercedes.
Mercedes cars are getting INCREDIBLY powerful. They are NOT kidding around anymore. Their 2003-04 lineup of cars boast 450 hp plus sedans (new Eclass E55), the 476hp SL55, the maybach series..(500hp plus_and also the new s class v12's will all be turbocharged. We haven't even gotten to the Vision SLR.
Mercedes is REALLY aiming towards huge sports car performance in their luxury line of cars. PERFORMANCE as their innovative direction.
Lexus has the highest end audio system on the market Mark Levinson. Their interior appointments, and sound reduction in the car is unbelievable. COMFORT, seems to be their focus of innovation over performance. Even in their next gen models there are no 400hp plus cars coming out.
So let's not stray off the topic here.
The SL55 is a VERY technologically advanced car. Very much so.
The brake by wire system, active body control, variable timing engine w/seemless supercharger integrated is awesome.
A roof that stores in 16 seconds.
The Lexus SC430's most innovative portion is it's audio system. The ride is plush, the appointments plush, the roof stores in 30 seconds(twice as long)..but the car costs 35-40K less then an SL55. (20K less than an SL500)
So again...the debate was not whether Mercedes lacked the innovation and technology. I never doubted that. I think they are very innovative and advanced.
MY CLAIM was that they are SO advanced that they even design their parts to last an exact amount of time, so that we have to keep coming back for more to replace them.
That's not poor innovation and unreliable parts. I don't think they are that poor in their engineering(unlike US cars). I really believe the Germans have this down to a science. My S430 started needed replacement parts and and near the END of my warranty. Same w/the bmw's I owned.
My japanese cars however, had parts that lasted 10-20K beyond the warranty and were also cheaper to replace.
So the CONCLUSION is that German cars ARE more innovative and technologically advanced..but it comes w/a price...knowing that these cars will need some serious upkeep and parts replacement.
U need to PAY for all of that high technology.
Just depends on what you prefer.
For my money, I'd like the more reliable japanese lexus Sc400 and then ADD performance and innovation to it by custom modification.
But if I had money to burn, and not worry about the maintenance..I'd get the Sl55
German cars do innovate and bring out the latest technology. The new SL is the most technologically advanced car out there.
And have you checked out the Maybach???
Japanese cars are innovate too but differently. I think it's a useless debate to say who is MORE innovative. The companies in those countries are aiming for different things.
Specifcally Lexus and Mercedes.
Mercedes cars are getting INCREDIBLY powerful. They are NOT kidding around anymore. Their 2003-04 lineup of cars boast 450 hp plus sedans (new Eclass E55), the 476hp SL55, the maybach series..(500hp plus_and also the new s class v12's will all be turbocharged. We haven't even gotten to the Vision SLR.
Mercedes is REALLY aiming towards huge sports car performance in their luxury line of cars. PERFORMANCE as their innovative direction.
Lexus has the highest end audio system on the market Mark Levinson. Their interior appointments, and sound reduction in the car is unbelievable. COMFORT, seems to be their focus of innovation over performance. Even in their next gen models there are no 400hp plus cars coming out.
So let's not stray off the topic here.
The SL55 is a VERY technologically advanced car. Very much so.
The brake by wire system, active body control, variable timing engine w/seemless supercharger integrated is awesome.
A roof that stores in 16 seconds.
The Lexus SC430's most innovative portion is it's audio system. The ride is plush, the appointments plush, the roof stores in 30 seconds(twice as long)..but the car costs 35-40K less then an SL55. (20K less than an SL500)
So again...the debate was not whether Mercedes lacked the innovation and technology. I never doubted that. I think they are very innovative and advanced.
MY CLAIM was that they are SO advanced that they even design their parts to last an exact amount of time, so that we have to keep coming back for more to replace them.
That's not poor innovation and unreliable parts. I don't think they are that poor in their engineering(unlike US cars). I really believe the Germans have this down to a science. My S430 started needed replacement parts and and near the END of my warranty. Same w/the bmw's I owned.
My japanese cars however, had parts that lasted 10-20K beyond the warranty and were also cheaper to replace.
So the CONCLUSION is that German cars ARE more innovative and technologically advanced..but it comes w/a price...knowing that these cars will need some serious upkeep and parts replacement.
U need to PAY for all of that high technology.
Just depends on what you prefer.
For my money, I'd like the more reliable japanese lexus Sc400 and then ADD performance and innovation to it by custom modification.
But if I had money to burn, and not worry about the maintenance..I'd get the Sl55
07-09-2002, 04:33 PM
#105
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This thread is so entertaining, so far all we can say about Japanese cars is how good their stereo is (and it only applies to Lexus or Infiniti), or how they do require less servicing/maintenance.
Too bad my lucky friend's GS430 with the ML stereo is having serious problems with the stereo periodically blasting to full volume every now and then which he cannot duplicate at the dealership.
In Japan, you can hardly drive a car to its maximum potential so they focus on the comfort when stuck in traffic. Good stereo, quiet interior and reliability. Don't they limit the cars' horsepower at below 300 or something?
For the Germans they have the nice roads and good drivers so naturally their cars are built much better (and safer) as driving machines capable of high speed cruising. Far more advance active and passive safety.
If I were often stuck in taffic jams moving inch by inch, I may pick a high-end Japanese car but otherwise, in North America or Europe or Australia, German cars all the way!
One interesting observation is that most Japanese car owners, especially the upper end Lexus and Infiniti owners seem to have this mission wanting to prove their wise purchase decision on German boards, or are simply jealous at European cars in general wanting to find out what they have missed. They research into how often the European cars break down to make themselves feel better fighting off the BMW/Audi/MB envy.
MB owners on the other hand are simply a happy bunch hanging out with their similar kind, they never visit the Pontiac board or Lexus boards to see if they have made the right choice or to see the need to convince others to buy a MB or BMW.
The above observation makes me think twice about buying a high end Japanese car, I certain don't want to waste my time having to deal with this MB/BMW/Audi/VW envy.
Too bad my lucky friend's GS430 with the ML stereo is having serious problems with the stereo periodically blasting to full volume every now and then which he cannot duplicate at the dealership.
In Japan, you can hardly drive a car to its maximum potential so they focus on the comfort when stuck in traffic. Good stereo, quiet interior and reliability. Don't they limit the cars' horsepower at below 300 or something?
For the Germans they have the nice roads and good drivers so naturally their cars are built much better (and safer) as driving machines capable of high speed cruising. Far more advance active and passive safety.
If I were often stuck in taffic jams moving inch by inch, I may pick a high-end Japanese car but otherwise, in North America or Europe or Australia, German cars all the way!
One interesting observation is that most Japanese car owners, especially the upper end Lexus and Infiniti owners seem to have this mission wanting to prove their wise purchase decision on German boards, or are simply jealous at European cars in general wanting to find out what they have missed. They research into how often the European cars break down to make themselves feel better fighting off the BMW/Audi/MB envy.
MB owners on the other hand are simply a happy bunch hanging out with their similar kind, they never visit the Pontiac board or Lexus boards to see if they have made the right choice or to see the need to convince others to buy a MB or BMW.
The above observation makes me think twice about buying a high end Japanese car, I certain don't want to waste my time having to deal with this MB/BMW/Audi/VW envy.
07-09-2002, 05:04 PM
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1999 Mercedes S430, 1993 Lexus SC400, 2003 Lexus ES300
W210
IF the "above" post was referring to me, that's pretty funny.
I've owned a bmw 318i, a bmw 850i, and currently have a 99 S430 mercedes. So I am wondering how if the "above" post is me..how I can envy myself since I am a german car owner??
How could I have missed out on something I was in on?
Hilarious dude. You crack me up.
Anyhow...I have the best of both. A german luxo cruiser (s430) a japanese economy luxo cruiser( es300 03), and a japanese coupe that I can play with and modify to my hearts desire w/out worry of it breaking. (SC400).
If you read my post u can see I'm not favoring EITHER japanese cars or german cars. More giving a pro or con on both.
The SL55 is definitely out of my price range..I don't have a problem admitting that. But I am perfectly fine w/my 99 S430. I KNEW going into it that it would cost a lot close to the end of the warranty and my suspicions have proven right.
Is it envy to just state the fact that my relatively new benz has seen the service center twice the amount of times my 6 year older lexus has?
So again..just stating facts and pros and cons. Not favorites.
I've owned a bmw 318i, a bmw 850i, and currently have a 99 S430 mercedes. So I am wondering how if the "above" post is me..how I can envy myself since I am a german car owner??
How could I have missed out on something I was in on?
Hilarious dude. You crack me up.
Anyhow...I have the best of both. A german luxo cruiser (s430) a japanese economy luxo cruiser( es300 03), and a japanese coupe that I can play with and modify to my hearts desire w/out worry of it breaking. (SC400).
If you read my post u can see I'm not favoring EITHER japanese cars or german cars. More giving a pro or con on both.
The SL55 is definitely out of my price range..I don't have a problem admitting that. But I am perfectly fine w/my 99 S430. I KNEW going into it that it would cost a lot close to the end of the warranty and my suspicions have proven right.
Is it envy to just state the fact that my relatively new benz has seen the service center twice the amount of times my 6 year older lexus has?
So again..just stating facts and pros and cons. Not favorites.
Last edited by Nighttrain; 07-09-2002 at 05:09 PM.
07-09-2002, 05:11 PM
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1999 Mercedes S430, 1993 Lexus SC400, 2003 Lexus ES300
no problem W210
Okay..no big deal.
Also just for the record. I HATE. I mean..HATE the Lexus SC430.
It's an ugly bubble of a car, that brought shame to my older SC400
The SL55 and SL series are works of Art
Also just for the record. I HATE. I mean..HATE the Lexus SC430.
It's an ugly bubble of a car, that brought shame to my older SC400
The SL55 and SL series are works of Art
07-09-2002, 09:26 PM
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Originally posted by Nighttrain
IF the "above" post was referring to me, that's pretty funny...
IF the "above" post was referring to me, that's pretty funny...
In the meantime, W210 should talk for himself and not come up with these preposterous generalizations, i.e.:
"MB owners on the other hand are simply a happy bunch hanging out with their similar kind, they never visit the Pontiac board or Lexus boards to see if they have made the right choice or to see the need to convince others to buy a MB or BMW.!"
PS:
For myself, I am a real CLK AMG owner, my fourth MB product. This CLK AMG is the best car built, since Karl Benz patented the first 3-wheeler in 1876.
I also have an RSX-S Acura, which is a daily reminder - of what QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, ECONOMY, RELIABILITY stand for.
07-09-2002, 09:35 PM
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K Karl - condescendingly speaking
I think you should join the course with me - the CLK AMG is not "the best car built, since Karl Benz patented the first 3-wheeler in 1876". To you perhaps.
07-09-2002, 10:35 PM
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Re: K Karl - condescendingly speaking
Originally posted by W210
I think you should join the course with me - the CLK AMG is not "the best car built, since Karl Benz patented the first 3-wheeler in 1876". To you perhaps.
I think you should join the course with me - the CLK AMG is not "the best car built, since Karl Benz patented the first 3-wheeler in 1876". To you perhaps.
Pls. do same, do NOT speak for me. tnx
07-09-2002, 10:52 PM
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BMW M5/ MB SL500
SL ALL the way
The lexus is nice but it is a toyota. The car's resell value can't compare with the MB SLs. When you drive a MB SL, you will never even consider the Lexus because of the status of the cars. ALso the new MB SL 500 is so redefined that you just have to buy one.
07-10-2002, 01:09 AM
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2000 W210 E55->2003 R230 SL500->2004 W211 E55->2007 997TT+2007 E63->2010 GLK350->2012 E550 4matic
Re: Re: K Karl - condescendingly speaking
Originally posted by karl k
Read again - I spoke for myself.
Pls. do same, do NOT speak for me. tnx
Read again - I spoke for myself.
Pls. do same, do NOT speak for me. tnx
07-10-2002, 01:11 AM
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ImportXpression - Agree
Originally posted by ImportXpression
The lexus is nice but it is a toyota. The car's resell value can't compare with the MB SLs. When you drive a MB SL, you will never even consider the Lexus because of the status of the cars. ALso the new MB SL 500 is so redefined that you just have to buy one.
The lexus is nice but it is a toyota. The car's resell value can't compare with the MB SLs. When you drive a MB SL, you will never even consider the Lexus because of the status of the cars. ALso the new MB SL 500 is so redefined that you just have to buy one.
07-10-2002, 03:53 PM
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
W210 - I checked with Miss Cleo; she is booked up for the "foreseeable future".
However, a cerebral augmentation is recommended, - as a priority measure.
eek:
However, a cerebral augmentation is recommended, - as a priority measure.
eek:
07-10-2002, 04:14 PM
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Can't believe
I just checked back in to see what was going on with the board and I can't believe that people are still arguing over the Lexus vs SL issue.
There is no issue. The SL is a superior car. If you take offense to this notion or want to discuss a Lexus/Toyota product then take it to the Lexus/Toyota boards.
Moderator-PLEASE END THIS THREAD
There is no issue. The SL is a superior car. If you take offense to this notion or want to discuss a Lexus/Toyota product then take it to the Lexus/Toyota boards.
Moderator-PLEASE END THIS THREAD
07-11-2002, 03:05 AM
#117
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Lexus GS 450h
I don't think no one is stating the SC 430 is superior to a car costing 20-30k more. That makes no sense. But the SC 430 more than holds it's own, PERIOD.
I dunno about ya'll, but the more I pay for a car, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND, If I am not tracking it, that car better NEVER, EVER, EVER have any problems. PERIOD. When I purchase my first 100k car (which currently, CANNOT be a Lexus) if it is a Benz or BMW, it BETTER be MORE reliable than my lil ol, 50k Lexus or I'll dump and get something else.
Who the hell buys stuff to take it back but "oh" it's under warrenty, that is B.S.
Driving dynamics, what a tired cliche.
I dunno about ya'll, but the more I pay for a car, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND, If I am not tracking it, that car better NEVER, EVER, EVER have any problems. PERIOD. When I purchase my first 100k car (which currently, CANNOT be a Lexus) if it is a Benz or BMW, it BETTER be MORE reliable than my lil ol, 50k Lexus or I'll dump and get something else.
Who the hell buys stuff to take it back but "oh" it's under warrenty, that is B.S.
Driving dynamics, what a tired cliche.
07-11-2002, 03:09 AM
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Lexus GS 450h
Lil known fact. Lexus wanted to make a convt. or this car so BAD, but instead of putting out a sub-par product, they waited until it was time for the SC 430. They felt strutural rigidity was not at "Lexus" levels. Here is a couple of custom ones.
07-11-2002, 09:17 AM
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2002 CLK 55 AMG Coupe ;)
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
I don't think no one is stating the SC 430 is superior to a car costing 20-30k more. That makes no sense. But the SC 430 more than holds it's own, PERIOD.
I dunno about ya'll, but the more I pay for a car, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND, If I am not tracking it, that car better NEVER, EVER, EVER have any problems. PERIOD. When I purchase my first 100k car (which currently, CANNOT be a Lexus) if it is a Benz or BMW, it BETTER be MORE reliable than my lil ol, 50k Lexus or I'll dump and get something else.
Who the hell buys stuff to take it back but "oh" it's under warrenty, that is B.S.
Driving dynamics, what a tired cliche.
I don't think no one is stating the SC 430 is superior to a car costing 20-30k more. That makes no sense. But the SC 430 more than holds it's own, PERIOD.
I dunno about ya'll, but the more I pay for a car, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND, If I am not tracking it, that car better NEVER, EVER, EVER have any problems. PERIOD. When I purchase my first 100k car (which currently, CANNOT be a Lexus) if it is a Benz or BMW, it BETTER be MORE reliable than my lil ol, 50k Lexus or I'll dump and get something else.
Who the hell buys stuff to take it back but "oh" it's under warrenty, that is B.S.
Driving dynamics, what a tired cliche.
A Porsche dealer told me last year, if you want a perfect car get an Acura. Well, I did. For $23,400 I have an RSX-S. The Porsche dealer was right!
That is why I arguably maintain:
The CLK55 AMG is the best car built since Karl Benz patented the first automobile in 1886.
...and best does not mean perfect.
07-11-2002, 12:27 PM
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Those pictures definitely reaffirm my original postings at the beginning of this thread, which is that is one ****ing ugly car. Bad styling, bad lines, horrendous wheels. Too bad.
Post the pictures of that mid-life crisis piece of **** on the Toyota Board where someone cares.
Post the pictures of that mid-life crisis piece of **** on the Toyota Board where someone cares.
07-11-2002, 02:04 PM
#123
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CLK430
Originally posted by ibanez
Those pictures definitely reaffirm my original postings at the beginning of this thread, which is that is one ****ing ugly car. Bad styling, bad lines, horrendous wheels. Too bad.
Post the pictures of that mid-life crisis piece of **** on the Toyota Board where someone cares.
Those pictures definitely reaffirm my original postings at the beginning of this thread, which is that is one ****ing ugly car. Bad styling, bad lines, horrendous wheels. Too bad.
Post the pictures of that mid-life crisis piece of **** on the Toyota Board where someone cares.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh man, that just made my day
My dad even read what you wrote, yo a funny *****!!
07-11-2002, 02:08 PM
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1999 Mercedes S430, 1993 Lexus SC400, 2003 Lexus ES300
by the way
I saw my very first SL500 on US soil in down town Manhattan in NY. This was back in April
PEOPLE STOPPED to stare at it. Or at least I DID. hehe
PEOPLE STOPPED to stare at it. Or at least I DID. hehe
07-11-2002, 07:39 PM
#125
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Lexus GS 450h
Post the pictures of that mid-life crisis piece of **** on the Toyota Board where someone cares
How's the Chrysler parts, or do you want me to go there? Maybe ya'll don't know about the parts in the new SL that will be shared with future Chryslers.
