SL/R230: Are the anti-sway bars a must after coil-over conversions?
12-29-2021, 04:40 AM
#26
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2005 R 230 SL350 (M112 3.7). Sold the 1966 W113 230SL recently
I stated that I am here to learn and I invited criticism - show me the data.
We know the car's body absorbs each and every uneven load, that makes it through the struts. Without making any claim whatsoever I wouldn't want to subject my car to extra and unnecessary flexing through the elimination of structural design. I just looked up some tech reading and yes, eliminating one torsion bar is especially ill advised. Anyhow, I would worry about where forces are transferred from one body part to another, hence I mentioned coatings. I know of a famous car make that suffered structural damage from after market tow bars. It started with flexing and ended up with doors permanently sticking. Somehow, stress limits were exceeded.
And fwiw I find it hard to imagine that a stripped concept has the same safety-envelope as the thoroughly researched and tested factory set up. I mainly cruise on near perfect roads and highways but the unexpected can happen at any time. On a German Autobahn a car in front of us suddenly made a spin, bouncing at the side barrier. SBC came in like an anchor while the car kept responding to steering as if running on rails. Thank you Stuttgart, I guess for a split second we needed the whole package.
We know the car's body absorbs each and every uneven load, that makes it through the struts. Without making any claim whatsoever I wouldn't want to subject my car to extra and unnecessary flexing through the elimination of structural design. I just looked up some tech reading and yes, eliminating one torsion bar is especially ill advised. Anyhow, I would worry about where forces are transferred from one body part to another, hence I mentioned coatings. I know of a famous car make that suffered structural damage from after market tow bars. It started with flexing and ended up with doors permanently sticking. Somehow, stress limits were exceeded.
And fwiw I find it hard to imagine that a stripped concept has the same safety-envelope as the thoroughly researched and tested factory set up. I mainly cruise on near perfect roads and highways but the unexpected can happen at any time. On a German Autobahn a car in front of us suddenly made a spin, bouncing at the side barrier. SBC came in like an anchor while the car kept responding to steering as if running on rails. Thank you Stuttgart, I guess for a split second we needed the whole package.
12-29-2021, 07:22 AM
#27
Lots of autocross and road race people eliminate the rear bar. I had to do that on my road racing mustang as the bar lifted the inside back wheel on corners. There are a few that eliminate both bars mostly front wheel drive, but also rear wheel drive cars by increasing spring rates.
I thought the car would be undrivable without the front bar, it seems flat. The bar would improve handling ,and I may look into fitting one, but for now it isn’t a priority. I would like to see if someone with the coilovers has any horror stories with their conversion. I haven’t heard of one yet, but maybe.
I thought the car would be undrivable without the front bar, it seems flat. The bar would improve handling ,and I may look into fitting one, but for now it isn’t a priority. I would like to see if someone with the coilovers has any horror stories with their conversion. I haven’t heard of one yet, but maybe.
12-29-2021, 02:59 PM
#28
The desired understeering behavior generally requires a redistribution of the entire supported rolling moment to the front axle. A stabilizer must therefore always be provided on the front axle. A stabilizer on the rear axle reduces the tendency to understeer.
So it is on the car and its weight, if it needs a stabilizer at the rear or not. For example: R129 SL600: Stabilizer front and rear. R129 SL320: Stabilizer at front only.
Seems so, But these people seem to have all automakers worldwide on their side. In a world where every penny is counted, they would be the first to leave out superfluous stabilizers. Either they are all wrong, or the pride of having repaired something complicated with little money effectively hides insecurities. Or you are driving Miss Daisy, only.
12-29-2021, 06:19 PM
#29
Well Andrea I suppose if I would like to go fast around corners, I wouldn’t take my r230, probably my 996 turbo, or my 997 turbo, or maybe the 996 carrera 4 I put a twin turbo Ls1 in. The Cadillac CTS-V I have out handles the heavy r230, and I think my W211 E55 would do so as well.
The Sl500 with no sway bars I have definitely handles better than my 68 firebird 400 with a 428ho and a front sway bar. I probably should stop driving that, it’s much more dangerous than the Sl500?
Like I said above, I will look into at front bar, I think it will improve handling, but without it isn’t unruly or undriveable as you would think. I think if Miss Daisy were to drive herself, she would pick your r230, seems to be more likely than my cars.
The Sl500 with no sway bars I have definitely handles better than my 68 firebird 400 with a 428ho and a front sway bar. I probably should stop driving that, it’s much more dangerous than the Sl500?
Like I said above, I will look into at front bar, I think it will improve handling, but without it isn’t unruly or undriveable as you would think. I think if Miss Daisy were to drive herself, she would pick your r230, seems to be more likely than my cars.
12-29-2021, 08:17 PM
#30
Senior Member
I am not sure but first it was the "German Way" Then came the shaming about buying a used 100000 dollar car for 20,000 and not restoring to its exact specifications as if only rich guys should own them. Now we have psycho analysis. As for my question it was not rhetorical and it was not addressed to you. It was to expand the discussion Fredrick posted. Respectfully I think you are a bit too grandiloquent.
12-30-2021, 05:20 AM
#31
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2005 R 230 SL350 (M112 3.7). Sold the 1966 W113 230SL recently
Guys - we are here for our hobby, for the fun of learning. To be challenged in one's opinions is one of the best opportunities here. I know I am mediocre when it comes to tech and I ain't proud about whatever either. Keeps emotions out of the equation and there's interesting stuff in this thread. Thanks and relax.
12-30-2021, 10:36 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
12-30-2021, 11:14 AM
#33
I believe most of us know what they do, this was a simple question of how the car behaves with coilover conversions and no sway bars. The people that have done the conversion would probably have first hand experience , and could intelligently about how the change makes the car behave. The others are just responding based on no actual experience with this particular combination.
It’s like asking a person who’s never been to Hawaii how they like it and getting the reply that they hated it.
Like I said maybe someone with this combination will speak up and tell you that they felt very uncomfortable driving the car, and I would appreciate their opinion and comments based on experience, but it seems the only people who are commenting on this have no experience with this car and coilovers with no sway bars.
It’s like asking a person who’s never been to Hawaii how they like it and getting the reply that they hated it.
Like I said maybe someone with this combination will speak up and tell you that they felt very uncomfortable driving the car, and I would appreciate their opinion and comments based on experience, but it seems the only people who are commenting on this have no experience with this car and coilovers with no sway bars.
12-30-2021, 11:21 AM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Keep asking questions within a narrow group of fellow enthusiasts, and you will keep getting the answers you want to hear.. Great step towards learning, just ask those who share similar views.Just confirmed my initial impression about the whole thread.
All the best, and best of luck on any modifications you make to your vehicle.. Enjoy it
12-30-2021, 11:43 AM
#35
I hope i am not. But this is the German way, again: Telling direct what you think and save time. What I've read is that this is one big cultural difference between the US and the rest of the world, not unusual.
The German way is to keep a vehicle in the best possible condition. This includes regular inspections and preventive maintenance, as well as knowing before you buy that there will still be costs afterwards. Nothing more and nothing less (presumably that was again too direct, but this way leads to fewer misunderstandings in the end).
Of course there are also people here who buy such a car with the last bit of money, lower it, screw on large wheels and become more creative than MacGyver with the first repair. Short time later they can be seen in forums asking about a cheap coilover. And surprise: There is no cheap one, but there is one more other car for parts, again. Lession learned.
If you were to convert the Firebird with the brakes of a T-model and the chassis of a steamroller, would you still let all 428 horses out on the road? And does your Firebird is a save car, because it is more comfortabel than a Ford T?
As long as you keep going straight and never suddenly have to swerve, that will be right. But accidents don't happen because everyone is doing everything right (Damn it, that straight German way again).
The German way is to keep a vehicle in the best possible condition. This includes regular inspections and preventive maintenance, as well as knowing before you buy that there will still be costs afterwards. Nothing more and nothing less (presumably that was again too direct, but this way leads to fewer misunderstandings in the end).
Of course there are also people here who buy such a car with the last bit of money, lower it, screw on large wheels and become more creative than MacGyver with the first repair. Short time later they can be seen in forums asking about a cheap coilover. And surprise: There is no cheap one, but there is one more other car for parts, again. Lession learned.
without it isn’t unruly or undriveable as you would think.
12-30-2021, 11:56 AM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
I hope i am not. But this is the German way, again: Telling direct what you think and save time. What I've read is that this is one big cultural difference between the US and the rest of the world, not unusual.
The German way is to keep a vehicle in the best possible condition. This includes regular inspections and preventive maintenance, as well as knowing before you buy that there will still be costs afterwards. Nothing more and nothing less (presumably that was again too direct, but this way leads to fewer misunderstandings in the end).
Of course there are also people here who buy such a car with the last bit of money, lower it, screw on large wheels and become more creative than MacGyver with the first repair. Short time later they can be seen in forums asking about a cheap coilover. And surprise: There is no cheap one, but there is one more other car for parts, again. Lession learned.
If you were to convert the Firebird with the brakes of a T-model and the chassis of a steamroller, would you still let all 428 horses out on the road? And does your Firebird is a save car, because it is more comfortabel than a Ford T?
As long as you keep going straight and never suddenly have to swerve, that will be right. But accidents don't happen because everyone is doing everything right (Damn it, that straight German way again).
The German way is to keep a vehicle in the best possible condition. This includes regular inspections and preventive maintenance, as well as knowing before you buy that there will still be costs afterwards. Nothing more and nothing less (presumably that was again too direct, but this way leads to fewer misunderstandings in the end).
Of course there are also people here who buy such a car with the last bit of money, lower it, screw on large wheels and become more creative than MacGyver with the first repair. Short time later they can be seen in forums asking about a cheap coilover. And surprise: There is no cheap one, but there is one more other car for parts, again. Lession learned.
If you were to convert the Firebird with the brakes of a T-model and the chassis of a steamroller, would you still let all 428 horses out on the road? And does your Firebird is a save car, because it is more comfortabel than a Ford T?
As long as you keep going straight and never suddenly have to swerve, that will be right. But accidents don't happen because everyone is doing everything right (Damn it, that straight German way again).
Definitely the German way.. Unfiltered. I usually go for the middle of the road on my answers, but you beat me to it. 
12-30-2021, 12:39 PM
#37
The german way for my german cars is to make things music more complicated and difficult to repair. The german way is to also make the car less reliable because of this. I spend most of my time working on lower mileage german cars with bad engineering problems. Germans call it maintenance, I call it unnecessary. Germans do make good door hinges though.
The german way that’s funny.
Plenty of these cars over here in the junk yard because of top and suspension issues. They are the Rube Goldberg contraptions from the Germans. Come and get them
The german way that’s funny.
Plenty of these cars over here in the junk yard because of top and suspension issues. They are the Rube Goldberg contraptions from the Germans. Come and get them
Last edited by cdk4219; 12-30-2021 at 12:43 PM.
12-30-2021, 02:57 PM
#38
I repair the top issues, companys in the US, too. German companies use hydraulic seals, US companies o-rings. Yes, the German way is funny, but they last longer.
Anyway. I have heard, there is a car manufacturer named Tesla(?) in the US. What do you think, do they use sway bars, too? If so, physics does seem to be a global phenomenon, not a fancy European attitude.
Can we agree to discuss things and not people?
Anyway. I have heard, there is a car manufacturer named Tesla(?) in the US. What do you think, do they use sway bars, too? If so, physics does seem to be a global phenomenon, not a fancy European attitude.
Can we agree to discuss things and not people?
12-30-2021, 03:08 PM
#39
Senior Member
That is hilarious It was you that brought up the German Way in the first place.. I guess every German is in lockstep with your description. We have seen that before and the American Way had to straighten it out 2 times.
12-31-2021, 09:59 AM
#41
So what’s the Miss Daisy comment have to do with cars or yes or no? I believe we were having that discussion before your personal jabs.
If the suspension worked I wouldn’t mess with it, but all 3 r230 cars I have it has failed. My way is to make it not fail again, and the only way to do that is springs. I thought the car would drive horribly without sway bars, but it doesn’t. Would sway bars provide flatter handling, yes. Are they absolutely necessary, for me and my setup I would say no. That’s as to the point as I can get.
If the suspension worked I wouldn’t mess with it, but all 3 r230 cars I have it has failed. My way is to make it not fail again, and the only way to do that is springs. I thought the car would drive horribly without sway bars, but it doesn’t. Would sway bars provide flatter handling, yes. Are they absolutely necessary, for me and my setup I would say no. That’s as to the point as I can get.
12-31-2021, 11:14 AM
#43
I suppose it depends on your spring rate and if you have lowered the car. Lots of autocross and road race people I know don’t run rear bars. They tune with higher spring rates and the cars are almost always lower.
On bumpy road courses I have seen people run no sway bars, as the sway bar ties the wheels together as one negating the independent part of the syspension. Outside wheel hits a bump, inside wheel also feels that bump. Its not common , but I have seen people successfully do this.
With a car that has soft springs, and high ride height, sway bars are much more helpful than high spring rates with lower than factory suspension settings. The rear bar removal most of the time will help with oversteer and most racers don’t even know the difference. Stock car stock soft springs stock height, removal of sway bars would be much more noticeable I believe.
I wouldn’t think the rear sway bar would be bad, just don’t believe it will make as much of a difference as the front one.
On bumpy road courses I have seen people run no sway bars, as the sway bar ties the wheels together as one negating the independent part of the syspension. Outside wheel hits a bump, inside wheel also feels that bump. Its not common , but I have seen people successfully do this.
With a car that has soft springs, and high ride height, sway bars are much more helpful than high spring rates with lower than factory suspension settings. The rear bar removal most of the time will help with oversteer and most racers don’t even know the difference. Stock car stock soft springs stock height, removal of sway bars would be much more noticeable I believe.
I wouldn’t think the rear sway bar would be bad, just don’t believe it will make as much of a difference as the front one.
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Gene Fiorot (12-31-2021)
12-31-2021, 03:54 PM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
The part that is being ignored is that the original ABC system has an "electronic sway bar", i.e. it adjusts the other side based on sensors on each wheel. The engineers thought the vehicle dynamics of the R230 require a "sway bars/stabilizing system" given the design of the suspension, in this case, the ABC system.
The alternative design with springs is the R230-350, and that one also has a sway bar. A heavier front end for the SL500 should change the driving dynamics of the vehicle somehow towards a stronger sway bar, or weaker (my as well remove it) than the SL350.
Making that decision w/o an "engineering study" or by a qualified technician (someone willing to sign a legal document with liability on his/her decisions), is just a hack on the vehicle regardless of the outcome. Some people are lucky because their driving envelope is within the limits of the vehicle, but others may not be able to handle/notice the subtleties of the setup.
My advice is just to be careful on the road, and pay attention to subtle behaviors changes on high-speed corners (say stiffer shocks are getting weaker w/o a failsafe mechanism). The same way a hydraulic line can fail unexpectedly, so can a shock or spring. For the example of driving on road courses, I assume the vehicle is checked for safety issue before each competition, something I would not do for a daily driver ( I used to back in the 70's but cars nowadays are nearly bulletproof to be checked every weekend )
The alternative design with springs is the R230-350, and that one also has a sway bar. A heavier front end for the SL500 should change the driving dynamics of the vehicle somehow towards a stronger sway bar, or weaker (my as well remove it) than the SL350.
Making that decision w/o an "engineering study" or by a qualified technician (someone willing to sign a legal document with liability on his/her decisions), is just a hack on the vehicle regardless of the outcome. Some people are lucky because their driving envelope is within the limits of the vehicle, but others may not be able to handle/notice the subtleties of the setup.
My advice is just to be careful on the road, and pay attention to subtle behaviors changes on high-speed corners (say stiffer shocks are getting weaker w/o a failsafe mechanism). The same way a hydraulic line can fail unexpectedly, so can a shock or spring. For the example of driving on road courses, I assume the vehicle is checked for safety issue before each competition, something I would not do for a daily driver ( I used to back in the 70's but cars nowadays are nearly bulletproof to be checked every weekend )
Last edited by JCM_MB; 12-31-2021 at 04:01 PM.
12-31-2021, 04:15 PM
#45
I make sure to check mine before and after competition. My town only has 23mph speed limits so hacking is allowed. And all roads within 50 miles of my house are straight. My lawyer has drawn up the legal papers for me to sign.
12-31-2021, 06:06 PM
#46
MBWorld Fanatic!
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...rk-handling-b/
https://www.strutmasters.com/blogs/m...ar-replacement
I think these ones fit
https://www.strutmasters.com/blogs/m...ar-replacement
I think these ones fit
Last edited by JCM_MB; 12-31-2021 at 08:30 PM.
12-31-2021, 07:00 PM
#47
Senior Member
The alternative design with springs is the R230-350, and that one also has a sway bar. A heavier front end for the SL500 should change the driving dynamics of the vehicle somehow towards a stronger sway bar, or weaker (my as well remove it) than the SL350.
Making that decision w/o an "engineering study" or by a qualified technician (someone willing to sign a legal document with liability on his/her decisions), is just a hack on the vehicle regardless of the outcome. Some people are lucky because their driving envelope is within the limits of the vehicle, but others may not be able to handle/notice the subtleties of the setup.
My advice is just to be careful on the road, and pay attention to subtle behaviors changes on high-speed corners (say stiffer shocks are getting weaker w/o a failsafe mechanism). The same way a hydraulic line can fail unexpectedly, so can a shock or spring. For the example of driving on road courses, I assume the vehicle is checked for safety issue before each competition, something I would not do for a daily driver ( I used to back in the 70's but cars nowadays are nearly bulletproof to be checked every weekend )
Making that decision w/o an "engineering study" or by a qualified technician (someone willing to sign a legal document with liability on his/her decisions), is just a hack on the vehicle regardless of the outcome. Some people are lucky because their driving envelope is within the limits of the vehicle, but others may not be able to handle/notice the subtleties of the setup.
My advice is just to be careful on the road, and pay attention to subtle behaviors changes on high-speed corners (say stiffer shocks are getting weaker w/o a failsafe mechanism). The same way a hydraulic line can fail unexpectedly, so can a shock or spring. For the example of driving on road courses, I assume the vehicle is checked for safety issue before each competition, something I would not do for a daily driver ( I used to back in the 70's but cars nowadays are nearly bulletproof to be checked every weekend )
OK now are you satisfied you called a 350 and a Black Series hacks. OK fine now maybe you can hack yourself. Please!
12-31-2021, 07:22 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Well the sl350 weighs 4023 pounds the sl500 weighs 4235 pounds. Not much of a difference and a thinner swaybar on the 350 could work with no problem and a thicker one from RMT will work the same. We don't need engineering to figure that out. however I did speak to the engineer at RMT and he was quite knowledgeable about sway bars for the SL R230.
OK now are you satisfied you called a 350 and a Black Series hacks. OK fine now maybe you can hack yourself. Please!
OK now are you satisfied you called a 350 and a Black Series hacks. OK fine now maybe you can hack yourself. Please!
01-02-2022, 10:51 AM
#49
The German way is to get out exactly that with many millions of dollars. As a result there are different springs, different stabilizers, even different rubber hardnesses. I have to admit that I find that much more interesting than the "one fits all" solution of the aftermarket.
I thank you for all contributions, I have learned a lot.
I thank you for all contributions, I have learned a lot.
