SL/R232: R231 SL63 vs R232 SL63
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‘24 Maserati GranTurismo Trofeo;'22 AMG SL55;'23 Porsche Cayenne S Coupe;'13 Porsche Boxster S
The critique of Porsche’s sales and volume planning is: pure genius.
Porsche publicly has stated they seek to deliver one fewer car than the market demands. This means scarcity prevails and price remains high. Business brilliance. Pure genius.
Meanwhile inventory and discounts are building at the clown show that MB has become.
Porsche publicly has stated they seek to deliver one fewer car than the market demands. This means scarcity prevails and price remains high. Business brilliance. Pure genius.
Meanwhile inventory and discounts are building at the clown show that MB has become.
Last edited by wem; Jun 20, 2023 at 02:53 PM.
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2025 BMW Z4 M40i (Manual); 2025 Lexus NXH Luxury; 2021 Porsche Macan S; 2023 Audi Q5
In my boredom one day I posted this, which is probably way longer an answer than you're intereted in 
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...ring-cars.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...ring-cars.html
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
In my boredom one day I posted this, which is probably way longer an answer than you're intereted in
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...ring-cars.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...ring-cars.html
I do harbor some disagreement with some of your conclusions but that would not detract from the excellence of your effort and the intellectual honesty you have provided.
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
Porsche's corporate PR team must be wizards at putting such a positive spin on the lack of inventory. Ferrari is the master of manipulating the whole process of granting access to its new cars by creating ridiculous hoops for customers. If given the choice, I am sure that Porsche would like to produce more cars to get closer to the demand without heavily discounting prices. Porsche is no where close to one fewer car than demand. Porsche like many other manufacturers had bad supply chain issues, first during COVID and then with the war in Ukraine (many parts like wiring harnesses were sourced from Ukraine). Its inability to provide cars within a reasonable time period cost them revenue when people like me had to shop at other brands. I ordered my latest Porsche and the SL within a week of each other. I would have purchased two Porsches, but the lack of inventory forced me to spend my money elsewhere (MB). As someone who has owned 10 Porsches, I'm not sure it is a wise move to unreasonably limit supply for models such as the 911. The thing that Porsche does well is to limit the span of its offerings. When I started to shop for the SL, I was shocked how many different model cars and SUVs are made by MB. While it makes sense to have gateway models to bring in new buyers at a reasonable price point, I think MB has carried it too far and diluted some of aura of the higher end models. The fact that the SL was an AMG only model was an important factor in my decision. If it was just a trim package, it would have been a no go for me.
(Do you really think Porsche would like to produce more sports cars in order to be closer to demand? I really don't think that represents their position.)
Mercedes didn't do this. They did the opposite and torpedoed the brand by turning it into a cosmopolitan luxury car brand for the masses. Audi and BMW were for a very long time simply a small thorn in the side of Mercedes; Mercedes was upmarket from those two brands. Now, Audi and BMW are making more or less the same cars as Mercedes and often better. I say this as a long-time Mercedes fan and current owner of three of their best AMG cars ever made.
Last edited by 348SStb; Jun 20, 2023 at 03:10 PM.
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‘24 Maserati GranTurismo Trofeo;'22 AMG SL55;'23 Porsche Cayenne S Coupe;'13 Porsche Boxster S
There is a lot of criticism on this forum from those who own or have owned prior generation SL cars. I'm not sure what drives it beyond "they changed the car and I don't like it." There are several like me who would never have even considered recent generation SLs. Whether or not this car finds its niche is yet to be determined. In my case, I traded out of my 2022 911 Carrera S cab and am very happy I did so.
just to take the car out for a spin and make some noise.
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Porsche's corporate PR team must be wizards at putting such a positive spin on the lack of inventory. Ferrari is the master of manipulating the whole process of granting access to its new cars by creating ridiculous hoops for customers. If given the choice, I am sure that Porsche would like to produce more cars to get closer to the demand without heavily discounting prices. Porsche is no where close to one fewer car than demand. Porsche like many other manufacturers had bad supply chain issues, first during COVID and then with the war in Ukraine (many parts like wiring harnesses were sourced from Ukraine). Its inability to provide cars within a reasonable time period cost them revenue when people like me had to shop at other brands. I ordered my latest Porsche and the SL within a week of each other. I would have purchased two Porsches, but the lack of inventory forced me to spend my money elsewhere (MB). As someone who has owned 10 Porsches, I'm not sure it is a wise move to unreasonably limit supply for models such as the 911. The thing that Porsche does well is to limit the span of its offerings. When I started to shop for the SL, I was shocked how many different model cars and SUVs are made by MB. While it makes sense to have gateway models to bring in new buyers at a reasonable price point, I think MB has carried it too far and diluted some of aura of the higher end models. The fact that the SL was an AMG only model was an important factor in my decision. If it was just a trim package, it would have been a no go for me.
Last edited by chassis; Jun 20, 2023 at 10:54 PM.
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Back to the R232 for a moment.
I stopped by today at the local MB dealer, a second tier dealer in a large metro. I asked about the "latest SL" and the SA said, "Well it was stolen from our showroom and it is being repaired. Same thing happened to another SL at a dealer 30 minutes from here."
Take aways:
- both dealers in question had only one SL each
- question: will both of these dealers report the theft history on a yet-untitled (new) car?
- the thefts were inside jobs - the precise offices where the keys were located were broken into and numerous premises security systems were thwarted. And the local police were nowhere to be found.
Lots of new cars on the lot, mostly boring A- and GLC/C- models.
I stopped by today at the local MB dealer, a second tier dealer in a large metro. I asked about the "latest SL" and the SA said, "Well it was stolen from our showroom and it is being repaired. Same thing happened to another SL at a dealer 30 minutes from here."
Take aways:
- both dealers in question had only one SL each
- question: will both of these dealers report the theft history on a yet-untitled (new) car?
- the thefts were inside jobs - the precise offices where the keys were located were broken into and numerous premises security systems were thwarted. And the local police were nowhere to be found.
Lots of new cars on the lot, mostly boring A- and GLC/C- models.
Last edited by chassis; Jun 20, 2023 at 10:55 PM.
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Porsche does a lot of things right but that is completely irrelevant.
We had 3 R231 SL's and was very happy with them but they always sold poorly, always with a discount and the lease rates were heavily subsidized. It was a great car for the money. The old SL63's had the heaviest discounts.
AFAIK, once the silly ADM's went away, the new AMG SL sells at smaller discounts, significantly higher price points and at standard MF (haven't checked lately though).
The non-sensical channel stuffing with less optioned early cars with the wrong model year will have hurt the launch, no doubt, but sales appear to be higher than 2015 or later models so despite the remaining high inventory, MB is making more money with these SL's than before.
We had 3 R231 SL's and was very happy with them but they always sold poorly, always with a discount and the lease rates were heavily subsidized. It was a great car for the money. The old SL63's had the heaviest discounts.
AFAIK, once the silly ADM's went away, the new AMG SL sells at smaller discounts, significantly higher price points and at standard MF (haven't checked lately though).
The non-sensical channel stuffing with less optioned early cars with the wrong model year will have hurt the launch, no doubt, but sales appear to be higher than 2015 or later models so despite the remaining high inventory, MB is making more money with these SL's than before.
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Wait, I thought "Porsche is by far the most profitable and successful car company in the world."
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2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
Forbes Global 2000 List 2023: The Top 200
Wait, I thought "Porsche is by far the most profitable and successful car company in the world."
Wait, I thought "Porsche is by far the most profitable and successful car company in the world."
You are the classic example of a college kid who looks at third-party provided data and doesn’t know how to research, analyze data, and see what the data doesn’t show. You haven’t provided any primary sources: just a link to someone else’s so-called work.
Porsche’s profit margins and returns on investment make it the most profitable automaker. Nobody said that market value of a company is equivalent to profitability. There’s more data out there than the 3rd party source you’ve just referenced.
Thread Starter
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
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1996 Plymouth Neon
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2018
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
Why don’t you explain what the data in your post #86 mean to you? Then I’ll answer anything you like.
By the way- do you really drive a Neon? How old are you?
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1996 Plymouth Neon
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2018
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
This is the last time I am going to interact with you. This is the last time.
Obviously Porsche’s profit margin according to your post #86 is double that of Toyota’s. Probably a fourth grade math problem and in many cases, third grade.
Obviously Porsche’s profit margin according to your post #86 is double that of Toyota’s. Probably a fourth grade math problem and in many cases, third grade.
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1996 Plymouth Neon
So then you should have said "profit margin" and not "profitable." Words are hard, I know.
Thread Starter
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
I didn’t realize all this until just now…
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
Last edited by 348SStb; Jul 13, 2023 at 05:51 PM.
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‘24 Maserati GranTurismo Trofeo;'22 AMG SL55;'23 Porsche Cayenne S Coupe;'13 Porsche Boxster S
While it might appear on paper that the numbers of the 232 SL63 have gone backwards, the new car is the quickest SL ever according to MotorTrend (even quicker than the V-12 SL65).
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...r-mile-tested/
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...r-mile-tested/
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I didn’t realize all this until just now…
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
I didn’t realize all this until just now…
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
How did Mercedes manage to worsen the R232 SL63 in the following ways:
Engine torque
590 ft-lbs; down from 664 on R231 SL63
Fuel capacity
18.5 gal, down from 19.8 gal on R231 SL63 (while increasing the weight of the R232)
Fuel economy
14/22 (16 combined), down from 16/25 (19 combined) on R231 SL63
I am at the Mercedes dealer now saying hello to some old friends and the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker on an unsold showroom SL63 jumped out at me.
New generation car, more gears, more advanced engine with less torque, but worse fuel economy, smaller tank, and therefore two different factors worsening the vehicle’s range. Doesn’t make sense how any of this was allowed.
I couldn't care less about the fuel economy. The 4 liter V8 is a better engine though as is the 9 speed MCT.
The smaller tank is a surprise although not critical but likely a compromise to fit the upcoming ePerformance components.
That said, the low HP has been odd especially given that the same engine with twin scroll turbos makes over 600hp in the E63s
But Renntech's numbers caught my eye as they measure their gains against dyno numbers, not factory ones.
R232:
Factory Figures: 577 HP 590 LB-FT
DYNO tested Stock: 625 HP | 681 LB-FT
So, moot point IMO...
Last edited by Wolfman; Jul 13, 2023 at 06:59 PM.
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From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
Nice retort.
Probably not; but you’ll be hanging out at the gas station much more often in an R232 SL.
Avid sports car enthusiasts (such as myself) often care about range — how often it’s necessary to go to the gas station — rather than fuel economy per se. If an excellent car has poor fuel economy, that’s okay with me as long as the gas tank is sufficiently sized. When a car is very powerful and has an extended range, that’s a very big bonus.
Probably not; but you’ll be hanging out at the gas station much more often in an R232 SL.
Avid sports car enthusiasts (such as myself) often care about range — how often it’s necessary to go to the gas station — rather than fuel economy per se. If an excellent car has poor fuel economy, that’s okay with me as long as the gas tank is sufficiently sized. When a car is very powerful and has an extended range, that’s a very big bonus.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 415
Likes: 98
From: Florida (primary), South Carolina
2017 AMG SL63 _ 19 AMG S65 Cpe _ 23 R8 Spyder Rwd _ 17 911 C2S _ 16 Boxster Spyder _ 01 BMW Z8 etc.
I couldn't care less about the fuel economy. The 4 liter V8 is a better engine though as is the 9 speed MCT.
The smaller tank is a surprise although not critical but likely a compromise to fit the upcoming ePerformance components.
That said, the low HP has been odd especially given that the same engine with twin scroll turbos makes over 600hp in the E63s
But Renntech's numbers caught my eye as they measure their gains against dyno numbers, not factory ones.
R232:
Factory Figures: 577 HP 590 LB-FT
DYNO tested Stock: 625 HP | 681 LB-FT
So, moot point IMO...
The smaller tank is a surprise although not critical but likely a compromise to fit the upcoming ePerformance components.
That said, the low HP has been odd especially given that the same engine with twin scroll turbos makes over 600hp in the E63s
But Renntech's numbers caught my eye as they measure their gains against dyno numbers, not factory ones.
R232:
Factory Figures: 577 HP 590 LB-FT
DYNO tested Stock: 625 HP | 681 LB-FT
So, moot point IMO...
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Nice retort.
Probably not; but you’ll be hanging out at the gas station much more often in an R232 SL.
Avid sports car enthusiasts (such as myself) often care about range — how often it’s necessary to go to the gas station — rather than fuel economy per se. If an excellent car has poor fuel economy, that’s okay with me as long as the gas tank is sufficiently sized. When a car is very powerful and has an extended range, that’s a very big bonus.
Probably not; but you’ll be hanging out at the gas station much more often in an R232 SL.
Avid sports car enthusiasts (such as myself) often care about range — how often it’s necessary to go to the gas station — rather than fuel economy per se. If an excellent car has poor fuel economy, that’s okay with me as long as the gas tank is sufficiently sized. When a car is very powerful and has an extended range, that’s a very big bonus.
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‘24 Maserati GranTurismo Trofeo;'22 AMG SL55;'23 Porsche Cayenne S Coupe;'13 Porsche Boxster S
After 1800 miles, my range on a full tank is 218 miles which works out to about 11.7 mpg. Around town I get about 8 mpg. Obviously I’m enjoying the car tremendously and doing the opposite of hypermiling. Years ago, I had a Range Rover Supercharged that had vanity plates that read “12-mpg”, so I don’t care about mileage or range either.
