SL55/63/65/R230 AMG: 2009 Vette ZR1 or 2009 Benz SL65???
#101
Member
Congrats on your new ZO6, kwne a guy at the gym that had one and loved it. said he had to put tires on it every 5k miles. Question? you said you like the attention that the ZO6 gives, do you find many people that can tell the difference between a ZO6 and a regular vette? I know its the same with the SL most don't know the diff between the SL500 and SL65.
#102
MBWorld Fanatic!
#103
Alot of talk but it is still comparing apples to oranges. One car isn't even a convertible. It doesn't matter if the ZR1 is $10,000 and made of gold, if I want a convertible then it is not an option at any price. Maybe we should start comparing the SL65 to a Chevy Tahoe.
By the way, who buys an SL if they don't want a convertible? I would think you would buy a different MB model.
By the way, who buys an SL if they don't want a convertible? I would think you would buy a different MB model.
#104
Senior Member
You're the one here talking about a Corvette on a MB board trying to draft some lame argument about how the Corvette compares when it doesn't.
Neither the Corvette or a Mercedes compares to each other at what they do best. Again, what is the point of this ridiculous discussion?
you're trying to give the Corvette a pass on having a plastic hell of an interior and lousy seats and other ill-build items because it can perform. That is the basis of your whole argument and it doesn't wash.
Likewise for you long as a car is reliable it can built like a tin can and long as it performs it doesn't have to feel like a 100K car
A Porsche Boxster has a better build and it is in similar price neighborhood.
Benz HAD issues with this, Corvette still does. Big Difference.
Considering all the performance it offers.....lets just forget that is still an anywhere from 50-100K car. You just don't get it, most GM loyalist don't. Speed, price, forget everything else.
You've heard of Girls Gone Wild. This thread should be titled MB Loyalists Gone Wild. It truly shows.
MB's build quality is better so you need not have commented in the first place then.
You're getting so much more car with the SL than you are a Corvette, which is really a one trick pony next to a SL. Sure the Corvette is more fun around a track and much cheaper, but you get what you pay for once you have to take in your surroundings. A plastic hell, no thanks. Reliability the SL can't brag about, but they aren't on the side of the road with their hoods up either.
But yeah they gloss over it (build quality) like you do, which I don't have a really big problem with, it is the comparison to a Benz in this regard that is downright silly.
one company (MB) has shown great strides in fixing their problems, and the other has decided to wrap everything in leather for 2008. That isn't progress in the least.
Other sports cars for the same money are built better.
You're going to see the Corvette's best attributes and I'm going to see the Benz's and never shall the 2 meet.
Just as in human character, when one says look at me, I'm better than you, you're junk and I should be regarded as superior to you, after all I paid more than you and that's why, this only reflects how needy the person is to validate themselves. They do this by chastising others to help make what few redeeming aspects about themselves seem more elevated. These types do the same with their cars, no different than immature kids do about their father or dog being tougher than the next kid's. Its useless juvenile tendencies that reveals nothing becoming of the person and only the needy validation of themselves through their per car maker. They use the car to define themselves.
This is not so much directed at you, just a blanket statement reflecting the personality type. If I could own dozens cars I would and perhaps will one day. I don't need to bash other cars to full appreciate my own. That's only for people with issues. We can all do better than that if we take a deeper look.
Last edited by c2jones; 04-23-2008 at 01:04 PM.
#105
Senior Member
Likewise do you see how much of a simpleton you make Corvette lovers out to be constantly making excuses for things that wouldn't be tolerated in a car half the price of a Corvette while touting this "pedal to the metal" mentality about "bang for the buck". It goes both ways.
And as you're talking about tolerating and making excuses, especially in the same sentence as pricing, you further cement my point in that you do ALL of that and more regarding MB, which with its pricing, is simply inexcusable, nothing less.
#106
Senior Member
While I'm sure you're going to nit-pick and tell me that differences between the reg Vette, the Z06 & the ZR1 are minimal, you asked me this: "Now tell me exactly how the interior of the ZR-1 is going to be different from the regular Corvettes? Please do tell. Are they doing more than just wrapping the dash in leather or adding some neat logos?"
Believe me when I say that your arrogance is contagious...
Just to name a few, the ZR-1 interior will have the following appointments:
Interior Details
The ZR1's interior builds on the brand's dual-cockpit heritage, with high-quality materials, craftsmanship and functionality that support the premium-quality experience promised by the car's performance.
The ZR1's cabin differs from the Corvette and Corvette Z06 with the following:
* ZR1-logo sill plates (you mentioned this one - the "neat" logos)
* ZR1-logo headrest embroidery (again "neat" logos)
* Specific gauge cluster with "ZR1" logo ("neat" logo) on the tachometer and a 220-mph (370 km/h) readout on the speedometer (whoops, you forgot to mention this part)
* Boost gauge added to the instrument cluster and Head-Up Display (oops, you forgot this one too)
The "base" ZR1 (RPO 1LZ) comes with accoutrements based on the Z06. Lightweight seats and lightweight content (Slipped your mind, I'm sure) The uplevel interior package includes unique, power-adjustable and leather-trimmed sport seats (oh gheez, did you mention these?); custom, leather-wrapped interior available in four colors (you didn't include the additional color options) navigation system (you forgot this one), Bluetooth connectivity (forgot this one too, darn) and more.
You obviously don't like GM products. Fine, we all get that point. You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to theirs. There is no comparison between the SL65 and the ZR1. The SL65 is a luxury convertible with fine appointments and the ZR1 is a true sportscar/racecar (throw in a roll cage & put on a fire-jacket) that also has fine appointments that IMO are not "junk or cheapo" looking. To say that all Vette interiors are the same is an informed statement made by you. The ZR1 will set itself apart from all other Vettes and all other GM cars for that matter.
If it's not to your liking, great then don't get one. I don't think GM will loose any sleep over it.
Believe me when I say that your arrogance is contagious...
Just to name a few, the ZR-1 interior will have the following appointments:
Interior Details
The ZR1's interior builds on the brand's dual-cockpit heritage, with high-quality materials, craftsmanship and functionality that support the premium-quality experience promised by the car's performance.
The ZR1's cabin differs from the Corvette and Corvette Z06 with the following:
* ZR1-logo sill plates (you mentioned this one - the "neat" logos)
* ZR1-logo headrest embroidery (again "neat" logos)
* Specific gauge cluster with "ZR1" logo ("neat" logo) on the tachometer and a 220-mph (370 km/h) readout on the speedometer (whoops, you forgot to mention this part)
* Boost gauge added to the instrument cluster and Head-Up Display (oops, you forgot this one too)
The "base" ZR1 (RPO 1LZ) comes with accoutrements based on the Z06. Lightweight seats and lightweight content (Slipped your mind, I'm sure) The uplevel interior package includes unique, power-adjustable and leather-trimmed sport seats (oh gheez, did you mention these?); custom, leather-wrapped interior available in four colors (you didn't include the additional color options) navigation system (you forgot this one), Bluetooth connectivity (forgot this one too, darn) and more.
You obviously don't like GM products. Fine, we all get that point. You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to theirs. There is no comparison between the SL65 and the ZR1. The SL65 is a luxury convertible with fine appointments and the ZR1 is a true sportscar/racecar (throw in a roll cage & put on a fire-jacket) that also has fine appointments that IMO are not "junk or cheapo" looking. To say that all Vette interiors are the same is an informed statement made by you. The ZR1 will set itself apart from all other Vettes and all other GM cars for that matter.
If it's not to your liking, great then don't get one. I don't think GM will loose any sleep over it.
#107
Senior Member
You've got to be kidding me to try to imply that one has to own one to gauge their quality.
The Pontiac Grand Prix is a mess of plastic and playscool looking buttons and just a mess in general. Cheap doesn't begin to describe it.
just be better informed next time. Now tell me exactly how the interior of the ZR-1 is going to be different from the regular Corvettes? Please do tell. Are they doing more than just wrapping the dash in leather or adding some neat logos? What is grossly inaccurate is your knowledge on the subject.
Yep performance wise, other than that it will be the same old Vette story.
#108
Senior Member
Carbon fiber anyone?
Notice how the SL's folding roof has been replaced by a fixed carbonfibre assembly; removing the electric motors that operate the roof and the folding mechanism helps to save weight. Can anyone say ZR1?
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...enz-SL/231872/
The weight loss continues with carbon fiber body panels such as the hood, fenders and roof. Simultaneously, the entire chassis benefits from more rigidity as a result of the fixed roof as well as the removal of additional components and high strength chassis reinforcements (88 pounds worth) that comes with the folding roof of the SL 65 AMG. Other sprinkles of carbon fiber are found in a rear diffuser and boot lid spoiler which provides approximately 77 pounds of additional downforce.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080416....details-emerge
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...enz-SL/231872/
The weight loss continues with carbon fiber body panels such as the hood, fenders and roof. Simultaneously, the entire chassis benefits from more rigidity as a result of the fixed roof as well as the removal of additional components and high strength chassis reinforcements (88 pounds worth) that comes with the folding roof of the SL 65 AMG. Other sprinkles of carbon fiber are found in a rear diffuser and boot lid spoiler which provides approximately 77 pounds of additional downforce.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080416....details-emerge
#110
Super Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 950
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
CLS63, GLK350
I'd vote for the SL65. I've never been into vettes since the 63-67 model years. I've had the porsches, NSX, z's, rx7tt, mb's, lexus, old 396 chevelles and camaros but never been into the newer vettes. iknow they are great cars big bang for the buck but don't tug on my heart strings. jmho
#111
Member
We've gone off into alot of different areas with the discussion in this thread.
It's obvious the two cars cannot be compared.
Each car has a different mission and purpose.
Unless you have the money of someone like Jay Leno, it is very unlikely that both cars would be in your garage at the same time.
That being said, and this being a Mercedes Benz forum - lets show some totally blind loyalty for the Mercedes Benz product.
Regardless of reliability, build quality, etc - its MERCEDES BENZ THAT RULES HERE!!!!
Trust me, no matter how much other car owners b*tch on their respective forums (especially the Corvette guys - see their posts on dead batteries) - they stay rabidly loyal.
I could purchase just about any other high priced car, but Mercedes Benz is it for me.
It's obvious the two cars cannot be compared.
Each car has a different mission and purpose.
Unless you have the money of someone like Jay Leno, it is very unlikely that both cars would be in your garage at the same time.
That being said, and this being a Mercedes Benz forum - lets show some totally blind loyalty for the Mercedes Benz product.
Regardless of reliability, build quality, etc - its MERCEDES BENZ THAT RULES HERE!!!!
Trust me, no matter how much other car owners b*tch on their respective forums (especially the Corvette guys - see their posts on dead batteries) - they stay rabidly loyal.
I could purchase just about any other high priced car, but Mercedes Benz is it for me.
#112
Senior Member
Ultimate Irony
Notice how SL65, a heavy luxury GT cruiser (which is really not looking to compete as a supercar whatsoever - its a power hardtop convertible), but does have big power to carry all that weight, is now looking to add SL65 into the supercar segment with its "Black Series," http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080416....details-emerge with weight reduction by mirroring techniques like carbon fiber components ALA the ZR1, as noted in my just previous posting.
So, we see techniques being duplicated (and bringing the price up even more) of this heavy luxury cruiser towards getting performance attributes akin to ZR1, but yet the same MB enthusiasts that chastise Corvette for having "cheap" construction and materials (beyond interiors), referring to fenders and overall body parts, face the irony in front of them now. Composites added to SL65 (Black Series) mirroring ZR1, acknowledging the remaining steel versus composites on SL to Corvette. Meaning more weight for SL, even in the Black Series. (The base SL65 weighs 1000LBS more than ZR1.)
Now, given Corvette interiors are the target of their critics here, let's try this on for size. One can add a Caravaggio interior (www.caravaggiocorvettes.com) to ZR1 up to SL65 levels which would of course elevate the total price, but still would be much less that the added pricing for SL65 Black Series which incorporates ZR1 type composite construction, towards the eventual supercar motive with lush interior appointments (Note: only MB elites deem this important with a supercar).
In the end then, all things now being equal, the ZR1 is still the better overall value, performance to pricing, and interior euphoria for those so needy of that. (Of course, the safety aspect would still favor MB.) The fit and finish element argument is really more exception to the rule and not limited to one make over another. The rest then is bragging rights and preference, vanity or brand loyalty, for both makes.
So, we see techniques being duplicated (and bringing the price up even more) of this heavy luxury cruiser towards getting performance attributes akin to ZR1, but yet the same MB enthusiasts that chastise Corvette for having "cheap" construction and materials (beyond interiors), referring to fenders and overall body parts, face the irony in front of them now. Composites added to SL65 (Black Series) mirroring ZR1, acknowledging the remaining steel versus composites on SL to Corvette. Meaning more weight for SL, even in the Black Series. (The base SL65 weighs 1000LBS more than ZR1.)
Now, given Corvette interiors are the target of their critics here, let's try this on for size. One can add a Caravaggio interior (www.caravaggiocorvettes.com) to ZR1 up to SL65 levels which would of course elevate the total price, but still would be much less that the added pricing for SL65 Black Series which incorporates ZR1 type composite construction, towards the eventual supercar motive with lush interior appointments (Note: only MB elites deem this important with a supercar).
In the end then, all things now being equal, the ZR1 is still the better overall value, performance to pricing, and interior euphoria for those so needy of that. (Of course, the safety aspect would still favor MB.) The fit and finish element argument is really more exception to the rule and not limited to one make over another. The rest then is bragging rights and preference, vanity or brand loyalty, for both makes.
Last edited by c2jones; 04-24-2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Added Link
#113
Super Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 950
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
CLS63, GLK350
Notice how SL65, a heavy luxury GT cruiser (which is really not looking to compete as a supercar whatsoever - its a power hardtop convertible), but does have big power to carry all that weight, is now looking to add SL65 into the supercar segment with its "Black Series," http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080416....details-emerge with weight reduction by mirroring techniques like carbon fiber components ALA the ZR1, as noted in my just previous posting.
So, we see techniques being duplicated (and bringing the price up even more) of this heavy luxury cruiser towards getting performance attributes akin to ZR1, but yet the same MB enthusiasts that chastise Corvette for having "cheap" construction and materials (beyond interiors), referring to fenders and overall body parts, face the irony in front of them now. Composites added to SL65 (Black Series) mirroring ZR1, acknowledging the remaining steel versus composites on SL to Corvette. Meaning more weight for SL, even in the Black Series. (The base SL65 weighs 1000LBS more than ZR1.)
Now, given Corvette interiors are the target of their critics here, let's try this on for size. One can add a Caravaggio interior (www.caravaggiocorvettes.com) to ZR1 up to SL65 levels which would of course elevate the total price, but still would be much less that the added pricing for SL65 Black Series which incorporates ZR1 type composite construction, towards the eventual supercar motive with lush interior appointments (Note: only MB elites deem this important with a supercar).
In the end then, all things now being equal, the ZR1 is still the better overall value, performance to pricing, and interior euphoria for those so needy of that. (Of course, the safety aspect would still favor MB.) The fit and finish element argument is really more exception to the rule and not limited to one make over another. The rest then is bragging rights and preference, vanity or brand loyalty, for both makes.
So, we see techniques being duplicated (and bringing the price up even more) of this heavy luxury cruiser towards getting performance attributes akin to ZR1, but yet the same MB enthusiasts that chastise Corvette for having "cheap" construction and materials (beyond interiors), referring to fenders and overall body parts, face the irony in front of them now. Composites added to SL65 (Black Series) mirroring ZR1, acknowledging the remaining steel versus composites on SL to Corvette. Meaning more weight for SL, even in the Black Series. (The base SL65 weighs 1000LBS more than ZR1.)
Now, given Corvette interiors are the target of their critics here, let's try this on for size. One can add a Caravaggio interior (www.caravaggiocorvettes.com) to ZR1 up to SL65 levels which would of course elevate the total price, but still would be much less that the added pricing for SL65 Black Series which incorporates ZR1 type composite construction, towards the eventual supercar motive with lush interior appointments (Note: only MB elites deem this important with a supercar).
In the end then, all things now being equal, the ZR1 is still the better overall value, performance to pricing, and interior euphoria for those so needy of that. (Of course, the safety aspect would still favor MB.) The fit and finish element argument is really more exception to the rule and not limited to one make over another. The rest then is bragging rights and preference, vanity or brand loyalty, for both makes.
#114
Senior Member
stupid *** word on this aint it stupid toargue
#115
Super Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 950
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
CLS63, GLK350
Surely, it could not be YOU, of all people here, using the term stupid to describe others, right? You might be the poster child of this forum for that. You have nothing of substance to say. All garbage commentary from you. And you don't understand the direction and point to this interaction. You're better off sitting this kind of discussion out. Honestly.
#116
Senior Member
Wow, that was a lot of dialog to get through to hear so few opinions.
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
#117
Senior Member
Wow, that was a lot of dialog to get through to hear so few opinions.
The fit and finish and overall build quality ended up taking front and stage, which should be of value to many.
I'm indifferent to drop top or not
I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads...the Granturismo gets more looks
my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road.
Seriously, as you've noted, this will NOT be the case with ZR1. It is a special car sure to be a strong collectible. One will witness as many if not more of all the makes you reference than with ZR1. If you want an "exotic look," ZR1 also fits this bill.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...
I can offer you some further perspective, elaborating further on what one can read within this thread.
See accompanying posting...
#118
Wow, that was a lot of dialog to get through to hear so few opinions.
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
Corvettes are a dime a dozen but just like the C6 ZO6 they are distinguishable between models...since the ZO6 GETS TONS OF RESPECT I CAN SEE THE ZR1 GETTING WAY MORE...
#119
Senior Member
Breakdown of the ZR1 SL65 Comparison
NOTE: As duly noted previously, these cars are not really in the same category. One is a heavy GT cruiser while the other is an advanced supercar with modern composites and other supercar features. The real comparisons should be made between the SL65 Black Series, which is aimed closer to the supercar element, now with the composites of ZR1.
In this thread several critiques have been made by MB forum regulars that degrade Corvette build quality overall (including ZR1 and the new leather option); referencing its construction and dated engine, and fit and finish and finally, interior, as measures of how it could not compare to MB in general, and SL65 in particular.
On those unfair digs, allow a firm overall response (courtesy of some informed personal within the Corvette camps): We'll call this a quick study guide of sorts.
MB steel versus Corvette "plastics" and composites.
How many Benz supporters question Mercedes' use of cheaper steel in the frame where GM went with a far more expensive lightweight aluminum frame on the Z06 and ZR1? Check the spot prices of aluminum vs. steel for a guide to just raw material price differences. Look into the cost of carbon fiber and ask why it is that this material, which is standard on F1 and Le Mans cars, is not standard throughout MB's lineup which is by and large vastly more expensive than Corvette's.
Safety
The most important safety feature in a car is the vehicle’s dynamic ability to AVOID a crash in the first place. This is a function of its acceleration, braking and handling. Since in every single respect a Corvette model can meet or exceed the dynamic envelope of anything currently offered by MB for road use, that overwhelmingly addresses the most significant vehicle specific component of safety.
The second part of safety is the purely static ability to tolerate a crash when one is unavoidable. This aspect of crash analysis is the easiest for those whose comprehension of the subject is otherwise limited. The C5 Corvette benchmarked the Mercedes SL of the time for structural integrity. The hydroformed structure of the C5 was so strong that it not only handily exceeded the resonant frequency stiffness of the SL but actually had to be softened after initial crash testing showed that it was not deforming enough to absorb crash forces in side collisions.
Today, the C6 convertible requires no additional structural bracing in its convertible form and its soft top roof was designed to meet Federal standards for a rigid roof car EVEN THOUGH THE VEHICLE IS NOT REQUIRED TO BY LAW. GM was in effect given a loophole which they not only declined to take but met the SL’s engineering standard with a soft top. The C6 Corvette has been extensively crash tested with more than twice the number (45) of crash tests as the C5. The Corvette’s structure is designed such that the car can technically be driven with no body panels attached and still effectively meet Federal crash tests. Those who look at a Corvette’s body panels and question the vehicle’s strength only give voice to the depths of their ignorance.
Beyond that, NHTSA has not crash tested any late model Corvettes or Mercedes coupes or convertibles back through 2005 when the current model Corvette was introduced. Absent these independent empirical tests, speculation on the vehicles relative safety is exactly that. Both vehicles meet all Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) applicable at the time of construction and sale.
Post crash, both vehicles offer safety systems designed to immediately communicate the vehicle’s distress and summon help. So one is hard pressed to see what empirically measured material advantage or disadvantage there is for the two cars in question.
Brakes
How is it that the ZR1 has carbon ceramic brakes standard when only MB's hugely expensive sales experiment, the SLR, has them? Brakes on the ZR1 are shared with the FXX and Enzo where they are a $25,000 replacement part. 15-inch Brembo carbon-ceramic rotors fitted as standard to the ZR1's rear wheels are the brakes originally designed for the front of Ferrari's 650-hp Enzo supercar. In the front of the ZR1, you'll find even larger 15.5-inch carbon-ceramic units. (Standard equipment on the 1,000-hp Bugatti Veyron.)
Technology and drive character
ZR1 is certainly fast, but it's also intended to be civilized. It's available with a head-up instrument display, power-adjustable seats, high-end audio and Delphi's smooth-riding MagneRide suspension dampers. It's no raw-boned racer. Ferrari has effectively licensed the Corvette's run-flat tires as an option on the F430 and the Magnetic Suspension system for use on their flagship 599. (BMW and others are incorporating this as well.) What technology does Ferrari license from MB or even directly share with them at present? Since MB is deemed so superior, one would expect a laundry list. Short of the SLR, which will likely fail to defeat the ZR1, which roadgoing Mercedes can match the component specification of the ZR1?
Efficiency
Corvette suffers no gas-guzzler's tax.
Dated small block Chevrolet engine.
I'm always hearing how Ferrari and Porsche have the world-class technology that Corvette can only dream of. Some here cite how Corvette is using a dated pushrod engine as if Porsche had not been using their same V8 for just as long. And there's nothing new about 4 valve OHC engines. Fiat/Ferrari first went into production in 1914. Corvettes engines are tried and true. One notices few takers against their ALMS program.
Fit and finish - Interior
Both makes have their pros and cons here. One should expect more of a luxury brand. There is not enough differential to make a substantial distinction here. But for what its worth, the updated leather option package for Corvette is in very good company.
From MotorTrend Magazine:
All Corvettes get metal sill plates and classier looking new center-console trim, in either a carbon-fiber or metal-screen type finish, with brightwork around the shifter and cupholder. But to lure the Eurosnobs, there's a new Custom Leather Wrapped Interior package. Practically every surface you see or touch is swathed in supple leather, handstitched by the nice folks at Draexlmaier-the same ones treating the hides in Maybach, Mercedes, and up-level Cadillac cockpits. The seat inserts are perforated leather in either a light "Linen" or darker "Sienna" color. Pricing is expected to run $4,000-5,000, given the list of gear it includes. It'll be worth paying for, though, and will still leave plenty of savings when compared with any Euro-rocket that can touch the Corvette's performance.
From Draexlmaier, "Complete interiors by Dräxlmaier are featured in the BMW Z8, the Mercedes-Benz CLK, the CL Coupe, the SL, the Maybach and the Bugatti Veyron."
http://www.draexlmaier.de/lang_en/Pr.../interieur.htm
The upgraded interior is done by no less than the interior decorators (Draexlmaier) of the Veyron and Maybach. GM has spared virtually no reasonable expense and has sought out only the best in their respective fields to assemble and supply this car. Assertions to the contrary are factually incorrect.
So much for this Corvette leather package not adding up to MB. Its made by the same company!
Construction
The ZRI incorporates a costly aluminum frame and costlier carbon fiber panels (the paint on which is said to weigh more than the panels themselves). As an aside, those panels are essentially made by hand and take quite a bit of time each. Each ZR1 and Z06 engine is handbuilt.
Power
This really needs no comment. ZR1 has 100 horsepower per liter. ZR1 will produce greater than 620 horsepower (some say close to 635) and more than 600 full pound-feet of torque. It'll produce more power than the Corvette C6.R that races at the 24 Hours of Le Mans with championships aplenty. Its a supercar to the fullest extent. Enough said.
Novelty
By anyone's standards, the ZR1 will be a true collectible. Barrett Jackson automotive auctions already state the Corvette as king of the collectibles. Imagine the heightened level of ZR1.
Just trying to be fair here, and ensure you have the other side of the story, as it were. Much to consider. You can get your wow factor from many cars. You can even get some value and everyday drivability from more than one make in this process. You can have massive power and with racecar-like performance. But only you can decide which vehicle best suits all your needs best for you.
I try to be balanced and appreciate the innovation and direction of all makes for what they do. I love the automobile and can find redeeming qualities in multiple brands. I have owned many luxury brands and still do, but this will never shackle my mind from seeing the attributes of various makes of cars. For Corvette in general and Z06 and ZR1 in particular, these should be seen as the technical gems they truly are and applauded and offered the proper accolades they rightly deserve. Some of the Euro people are coming around; some will never get it. Sad but true.
Certainly, ZR1 will be a player on an international scale and one denying its ample presence does within one's own stupor. Recognition comes hard (perhaps recovering from the troubled past of Corvette?), but as respect is earned and not granted, Corvette will have its day in the sun and force that respect.
In this thread several critiques have been made by MB forum regulars that degrade Corvette build quality overall (including ZR1 and the new leather option); referencing its construction and dated engine, and fit and finish and finally, interior, as measures of how it could not compare to MB in general, and SL65 in particular.
On those unfair digs, allow a firm overall response (courtesy of some informed personal within the Corvette camps): We'll call this a quick study guide of sorts.
MB steel versus Corvette "plastics" and composites.
How many Benz supporters question Mercedes' use of cheaper steel in the frame where GM went with a far more expensive lightweight aluminum frame on the Z06 and ZR1? Check the spot prices of aluminum vs. steel for a guide to just raw material price differences. Look into the cost of carbon fiber and ask why it is that this material, which is standard on F1 and Le Mans cars, is not standard throughout MB's lineup which is by and large vastly more expensive than Corvette's.
Safety
The most important safety feature in a car is the vehicle’s dynamic ability to AVOID a crash in the first place. This is a function of its acceleration, braking and handling. Since in every single respect a Corvette model can meet or exceed the dynamic envelope of anything currently offered by MB for road use, that overwhelmingly addresses the most significant vehicle specific component of safety.
The second part of safety is the purely static ability to tolerate a crash when one is unavoidable. This aspect of crash analysis is the easiest for those whose comprehension of the subject is otherwise limited. The C5 Corvette benchmarked the Mercedes SL of the time for structural integrity. The hydroformed structure of the C5 was so strong that it not only handily exceeded the resonant frequency stiffness of the SL but actually had to be softened after initial crash testing showed that it was not deforming enough to absorb crash forces in side collisions.
Today, the C6 convertible requires no additional structural bracing in its convertible form and its soft top roof was designed to meet Federal standards for a rigid roof car EVEN THOUGH THE VEHICLE IS NOT REQUIRED TO BY LAW. GM was in effect given a loophole which they not only declined to take but met the SL’s engineering standard with a soft top. The C6 Corvette has been extensively crash tested with more than twice the number (45) of crash tests as the C5. The Corvette’s structure is designed such that the car can technically be driven with no body panels attached and still effectively meet Federal crash tests. Those who look at a Corvette’s body panels and question the vehicle’s strength only give voice to the depths of their ignorance.
Beyond that, NHTSA has not crash tested any late model Corvettes or Mercedes coupes or convertibles back through 2005 when the current model Corvette was introduced. Absent these independent empirical tests, speculation on the vehicles relative safety is exactly that. Both vehicles meet all Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) applicable at the time of construction and sale.
Post crash, both vehicles offer safety systems designed to immediately communicate the vehicle’s distress and summon help. So one is hard pressed to see what empirically measured material advantage or disadvantage there is for the two cars in question.
Brakes
How is it that the ZR1 has carbon ceramic brakes standard when only MB's hugely expensive sales experiment, the SLR, has them? Brakes on the ZR1 are shared with the FXX and Enzo where they are a $25,000 replacement part. 15-inch Brembo carbon-ceramic rotors fitted as standard to the ZR1's rear wheels are the brakes originally designed for the front of Ferrari's 650-hp Enzo supercar. In the front of the ZR1, you'll find even larger 15.5-inch carbon-ceramic units. (Standard equipment on the 1,000-hp Bugatti Veyron.)
Technology and drive character
ZR1 is certainly fast, but it's also intended to be civilized. It's available with a head-up instrument display, power-adjustable seats, high-end audio and Delphi's smooth-riding MagneRide suspension dampers. It's no raw-boned racer. Ferrari has effectively licensed the Corvette's run-flat tires as an option on the F430 and the Magnetic Suspension system for use on their flagship 599. (BMW and others are incorporating this as well.) What technology does Ferrari license from MB or even directly share with them at present? Since MB is deemed so superior, one would expect a laundry list. Short of the SLR, which will likely fail to defeat the ZR1, which roadgoing Mercedes can match the component specification of the ZR1?
Efficiency
Corvette suffers no gas-guzzler's tax.
Dated small block Chevrolet engine.
I'm always hearing how Ferrari and Porsche have the world-class technology that Corvette can only dream of. Some here cite how Corvette is using a dated pushrod engine as if Porsche had not been using their same V8 for just as long. And there's nothing new about 4 valve OHC engines. Fiat/Ferrari first went into production in 1914. Corvettes engines are tried and true. One notices few takers against their ALMS program.
Fit and finish - Interior
Both makes have their pros and cons here. One should expect more of a luxury brand. There is not enough differential to make a substantial distinction here. But for what its worth, the updated leather option package for Corvette is in very good company.
From MotorTrend Magazine:
All Corvettes get metal sill plates and classier looking new center-console trim, in either a carbon-fiber or metal-screen type finish, with brightwork around the shifter and cupholder. But to lure the Eurosnobs, there's a new Custom Leather Wrapped Interior package. Practically every surface you see or touch is swathed in supple leather, handstitched by the nice folks at Draexlmaier-the same ones treating the hides in Maybach, Mercedes, and up-level Cadillac cockpits. The seat inserts are perforated leather in either a light "Linen" or darker "Sienna" color. Pricing is expected to run $4,000-5,000, given the list of gear it includes. It'll be worth paying for, though, and will still leave plenty of savings when compared with any Euro-rocket that can touch the Corvette's performance.
From Draexlmaier, "Complete interiors by Dräxlmaier are featured in the BMW Z8, the Mercedes-Benz CLK, the CL Coupe, the SL, the Maybach and the Bugatti Veyron."
http://www.draexlmaier.de/lang_en/Pr.../interieur.htm
The upgraded interior is done by no less than the interior decorators (Draexlmaier) of the Veyron and Maybach. GM has spared virtually no reasonable expense and has sought out only the best in their respective fields to assemble and supply this car. Assertions to the contrary are factually incorrect.
So much for this Corvette leather package not adding up to MB. Its made by the same company!
Construction
The ZRI incorporates a costly aluminum frame and costlier carbon fiber panels (the paint on which is said to weigh more than the panels themselves). As an aside, those panels are essentially made by hand and take quite a bit of time each. Each ZR1 and Z06 engine is handbuilt.
Power
This really needs no comment. ZR1 has 100 horsepower per liter. ZR1 will produce greater than 620 horsepower (some say close to 635) and more than 600 full pound-feet of torque. It'll produce more power than the Corvette C6.R that races at the 24 Hours of Le Mans with championships aplenty. Its a supercar to the fullest extent. Enough said.
Novelty
By anyone's standards, the ZR1 will be a true collectible. Barrett Jackson automotive auctions already state the Corvette as king of the collectibles. Imagine the heightened level of ZR1.
Just trying to be fair here, and ensure you have the other side of the story, as it were. Much to consider. You can get your wow factor from many cars. You can even get some value and everyday drivability from more than one make in this process. You can have massive power and with racecar-like performance. But only you can decide which vehicle best suits all your needs best for you.
I try to be balanced and appreciate the innovation and direction of all makes for what they do. I love the automobile and can find redeeming qualities in multiple brands. I have owned many luxury brands and still do, but this will never shackle my mind from seeing the attributes of various makes of cars. For Corvette in general and Z06 and ZR1 in particular, these should be seen as the technical gems they truly are and applauded and offered the proper accolades they rightly deserve. Some of the Euro people are coming around; some will never get it. Sad but true.
Certainly, ZR1 will be a player on an international scale and one denying its ample presence does within one's own stupor. Recognition comes hard (perhaps recovering from the troubled past of Corvette?), but as respect is earned and not granted, Corvette will have its day in the sun and force that respect.
Last edited by c2jones; 04-25-2008 at 01:05 PM.
#120
Senior Member
Wow, that was a lot of dialog to get through to hear so few opinions.
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
I'm actually doing similar shopping, but I have even LESS of a clue what I want, if that's possible.
Cars I'm shopping:
list it, for a New ZR1
~'06 SL65
~'06 Bentley GT
New Maserati Granturismo (or Quattroporte)
New M6
These all fall roughly in the same price range. It would be a somewhat daily driver for me (not in the winter...). I'm indifferent to 2dr/4dr and I'm indifferent to drop top or not. I'm really looking for a car that's fun to drive and may turn a few heads. To be honest, my concern with the Corvette is that (not the ZR1) they're a dime a dozen on the road. Ironically enough, there was both a Granturismo and an SL65 parked outside my work this morning. And to be truthful, the Granturismo gets more looks. You just don't see many, and it definitely has a more "exotic" look.
Let the flames begin, but I'll sift through to get the additional opinions mixed in...(maybe I'm even missing a car that would fall into this bucket?)
Nice choices, you might want to look into a new Viper as well.
#121
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'04 SL55,'07 S550,'06 E55
...
c2jones, you say people are buying mercedes to stroke their ego and their build quality is atrocius right....well then why the hell do you have an E500!!! Seriously what are you doing coming onto an MB board and saying the corvette is the better car, thats like going into fenway park and trying to convince the majority the yanks are better than the red sox...its not gonna happen, also the Nissan Gt-R is more bang for the buck than your vette but I didn't wanna burst your bubble. I never said the vette wasn't great, I just said stop comparing it to an SL65 its 2 different demographics of buyer
#122
Senior Member
I originally did include the Viper (that's actually my favorite looking car of the bunch!). I've just heard person after person tell me that it's a phenomenal weekend car and a horrible daily driver...
I need the car to be slightly functional.
Ha, a SL65 BS in my future as mentioned elsewhere...I do OK for myself, but not "$200k+ OK".
As for the GT-R, let's just say Nissan has a bad history of putting out test cars that perform far better than the actual cars sold. There's already a lot of skepticism that one of the test cars is putting 480 to the wheels and that there's no way the real cars will be anywhere near that...
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/s...p-at-the-hubs/
I need the car to be slightly functional.
Ha, a SL65 BS in my future as mentioned elsewhere...I do OK for myself, but not "$200k+ OK".
As for the GT-R, let's just say Nissan has a bad history of putting out test cars that perform far better than the actual cars sold. There's already a lot of skepticism that one of the test cars is putting 480 to the wheels and that there's no way the real cars will be anywhere near that...
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/s...p-at-the-hubs/
Last edited by metalica_23; 04-25-2008 at 02:15 PM.
#123
Senior Member
Ah, you're gleaming for the attention too. Would have never guessed that from witnessing many in this forum... Sorry.
So are C-Class and 3 Series, but the prestige addicts won't mind that.
Seriously, as you've noted, this will NOT be the case with ZR1. It is a special car sure to be a strong collectible. One will witness as many if not more of all the makes you reference than with ZR1. If you want an "exotic look," ZR1 also fits this bill.
So are C-Class and 3 Series, but the prestige addicts won't mind that.
Seriously, as you've noted, this will NOT be the case with ZR1. It is a special car sure to be a strong collectible. One will witness as many if not more of all the makes you reference than with ZR1. If you want an "exotic look," ZR1 also fits this bill.
If I wanted performance and not necessarily to turn heads, I could spend far less and get some type of $30k tuner car...
There's always the luxury end, etc., etc. but a big reason there's a market for these vehicles is stroking one's ego. I'm not afraid to admit it.
I'll need to see the ZR1 up close and personal. To me, cars like my E55 and the RS6, M5, etc. don't distinguish themselves enough from their lightweight brethren. Of course, this is why there's such a huge aftermarket for rims, body kits, etc. etc. I'll be curious to see how much is put into making the ZR1 standout from "regular" Vettes (and I tread lightly using the word "regular", as even base Vettes are great bang for the buck...)
Last edited by metalica_23; 04-25-2008 at 02:16 PM.
#124
Senior Member
c2jones, you say people are buying mercedes to stroke their ego and their build quality is atrocious right....well then why the hell do you have an E500!!!
MB may be improving in the reliability area (let's sure hope so), but there is no denying that they have had a real festival of getting higher prices and greater sales in spite of the fact that their reliability (and electrical gremlins) were through the roof in the recent past. MB has stuck to its consumers good and they must be laughing at the American vanity in the process. If you are somehow unaware of this, then its your head that's in the sand and this kind of thing is what fully supports my point.
And I bought the E500 new on Memorial Day of 05. This was during the dark days of MB quality. As a MBCA member, I have been made aware that MB is making strides of improvement. My contemplation now is whether I should get another MB (probably the refaced CLS or CL, and my wife wants the new SL). The lease is done soon. Pretty simple. Nothing hard to digest there.
Seriously what are you doing coming onto an MB board and saying the corvette is the better car
thats like going into fenway park and trying to convince the majority the yanks are better than the red sox...i
also the Nissan Gt-R is more bang for the buck than your vette but I didn't wanna burst your bubble.
I never said the vette wasn't great, I just said stop comparing it to an SL65 its 2 different demographics of buyer
And, finally, given you are the one that cited getting your "butt massaged at 150" MPH... https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....8&postcount=80 ... are you REALLY looking to be taken seriously? If you only knew how you are perceived by others. Some substance would serve you better.
Last edited by c2jones; 04-25-2008 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Added Links
#125
Senior Member
But, to say that the look of the car and making heads turn is not part of why you spent that kind of loot is just lying to one's self.
but a big reason there's a market for these vehicles is stroking ones ego.
Last edited by c2jones; 04-25-2008 at 02:28 PM.