BlackOmega

Do you have any empirical data supporting your assertion?
1. **** Walmart.
2. You need 3 more quarts for the M113 engine.

saintz

I was too lazy to google it. I didn't think the Liqui Molly was, but you're right, it is.

If you can find the Valvoline for cheaper, go for it. I actually debated picking it up with the Amazon 20% discount for recurring shipping. Otherwise I don't think you'll find it cheaper. I doubt it's quite as good as the Mobil, but it's approved and I'm sure good enough.

saintz

Here you're suggesting that you should pick an oil based on ambient temperature.

Here you're suggesting you should pick oil based on engine design. Is it engine design, or temperature? (It's engine design)

Average oil temps will be 176*F, which means way hotter than ambient. Gasoline burns at roughly 540*F, which means that if you are beating the crap out of the engine (and so thermal inertia is overcome) the oil coating the cylinder walls will reach 540*F. Again, way above ambient. Your oil can locally hit 540*F in Alaska or Nevada.

That car hasn't hit operating temperature. That's why we use dual weight oil. The oil is acting as a 0W while cold and once the car hits operating temperature it will act like a 40 weight.


I'm an engineer, but not a chemical or mechanical one.

Consider the following:
Mobil 1 0W40 - Approved
Mobil 1 5W40 ESP - Not Approved
Mobil 1 5W40 Non-ESP - Approved

This tells you two things:
It's not just the weight - two oils with different weights are approved.
It's not just the weight - two oils with the same weight aren't both approved.

The additive package generally is more important than the weight. The 0W40 and 5W40 are, from a viscosity perspective, very similar. Both offer the same operating protection and similar cold start protection. The key is the additive package. Switching to 5w50 gives you a totally different (and likely inferior) additive package. The 0W40 oil has a much better additive package than the other oils in the range, even with similar weight ratings. That's why Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan GTR, etc. specify Mobil 1 0W40 and not just any weight Mobil 1.

snooozie

Damnn...i guess nowadays you have to give exact quantities and measurement. No one can figure them out if you don't....

Yeah, so go out and buy one more gallon for 25 bucks....save 2 quarts for later or for next oil change....thats easy to figure out.....you still save money buying the gallon with 2 qts for reserve....

For those of you that would like to spend extra money for oil....for each his/her own....that's why we are a free market society here and there are many brands out there....just saying...

BlackOmega

You're not looking into what I said deeply enough. While I did start out saying that it has to do with ambient temps, however, I ended by saying what happens to the oil with those given ambient temps.
Ambient temps, most certainly, have an effect on oil viscosity.



It's both. Ambient and operating temps are definitely a factor, as is the metering. That's why you have to be especially critical when switching to a heavier or a thinner oil than is recommended.

This is wrong all around. While the cooling system, which is actively cooled through a radiator, may stay around 176*F (it doesn't, it also fluctuates), there's not a snowballs chance in hell that the oil will.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your gasoline burning temps, but they're WAY off. Sure the open air burning temp may be 536*F, however, inside a combustion chamber, it's a completely different story. operating temps of gasoline in a combustion chamber are much closer to 3600*F than they are to 540*F. As a matter of fact, it is not unheard of to have exhaust manifold and turbo temps in the 2000*F range.

Note the color of the headers on this Cosworth engine.



So if gasoline only stayed at 540*F, how is it possible that this steel is glowing?

Here's another pic of a turbo that's almost white because it's so hot.


These two pictures alone blow your assertion right out of the water.

Combustion chamber temperatures are extremely high, and therefore, engine temps are high, which in turn makes oil temps high, definitely WAY higher than 176*F.

Also consider this, if the oil stayed at a constant 176*F, why is it our cars have an actively cooled heat exchanger for the oil specifically? If the temp stayed even remotely constant and close to 176*F, there'd be no need for oil coolers.
Actually the car was already at operating temperature. My wife ran into the store while I stayed outside with our 1 year old in the car running. After 15 minutes or so, it's operating temperature kept dropping. It dropped all the way down to the bottom of the scale and started blowing cold air.
As I said before, if the oil was 176*F then everything would be 176*F. Simply not the case.

On a side note, what is the coldest it gets down there in SC? I hear if you all get 0.5" of snow the whole state shuts down. So I'm wondering what experience you have to base your claim.


I'm a Certified mechanic and have over 23 years of experience. So I'm not making some sort of arbitrary argument just for the sake of being argumentative or defending my "opinion."
Also note that I, as a hobby, built A LOT of high performance engines so increasing operating temps and oil viscosity was always a concern as your typical 0w or 5w oils simply couldn't handle the stresses of severe duty. Regardless if they're synthetic or not.

Another point that needs to be made about oil is what causes it to break down in the first place. Oil experiences thermal break down and that is exactly what causes viscosity loss. Once again, if oil stayed @ 176*F, this would never occur since it would never achieve a temperature hot enough for it to break down.

The additives are not more important than the weight. The additives are there for things such as corrosion inhibition, cleaning (detergents), compatibility with the metals/seals/gaskets/sensors and so forth.

The 0w40 doesn't give you "better" additives, it just gives you the ones that are compatible with your engine. plain and simple.

The 5w50 weight oil is an excellent oil and I have run it in all sorts of vehicles with nary an issue. Everything from MG B models (oil still looked new after 4k), to all aluminum Mazda engines, to cast iron Fords, to Hondas, to Chevys, even in the M113 in my car. It works great. I have literally used this weight of oil for almost 20 years. Castrol Syntec specifically. In any non-biased comparison, Syntec, hands down, beats Mobil 1 EVERY time.
The only issue I've ever had with it was metering in a Ford 3.0L DOHC V6 (which is all aluminum). It calls for a 5w20 oil, and is metered for such. The 50 weight was simply too "thick" and thus produced lifter noise.

I hope I didn't come across as rude. I'm not trying to be a "know it all" or "show you what's up"; I'm simply trying to educate.

Thanks for making this an interesting discussion.

saintz

Frank, I appreciate the discussion as well, and don't want to be rude either. I just want to avoid someone reading your opinion, using the wrong oil, and damaging their motor. I think everyone on BobIsTheOilGuy has agreed that your opinion on Castrol is in the minority. You're free to use whatever oil you want, but others would be wise to note that none of the Castrol XW50 oils are MB approved, while certain Castrol XW30 and XW40 oils are.

As far as temperatures, yes, I know that engines are hot. My point wasn't to discuss the maximum temperature of oil, I was commenting that the average minimum temperature will be well well higher than ambient, regardless of ambient. Your assertion that oil gets much hotter, perhaps 2,000*F in a turbocharged car regardless of ambient, only further supports my argument that you don't pick an oil based on ambient temperature. While you do pick a winter weight based on ambient, the 0W is the best winter weight available, and hence suitable for any ambient temperature.

With regard to additive packages, there are oils with better and more expensive additive packages and oils with worse and cheaper packages. Mercedes demands better additives. Two oils with the same viscosity/weight can have totally different packages. The difference may be (as you mentioned) designed for a different engine, or it could be simply a cheaper/worse package. Hence, we don't just pick an oil based on weight, we pick an oil based on weight and package, or to make it easy, we stick to recommended oil.

Castrol Edge Professional A3 5W-30 is approved. Mobil 1 5W-30 is not approved. Same weight, but this oil has a worse/cheaper additive package (and probably base oil) than Mobil 1 0W40.

Mobil 1 5W40 non-ESP is approved. Mobil 1 5W40 ESP is not approved. Here it's not the additive package is worse, it's just different. It's meant for diesel emissions systems.

I have no idea if the Castrol Syntec 5W50 additive package is suitable quality or profile for this motor. I do know that Mercedes does not recommend it, and in fact does not recommend any 5W50 or even XW50 weight oil.

The short version for anyone confused: use Mobil 1 0W40.

snooozie

Its kind of scary that all these people are trying out different types of oil when the obvious is there to use. After reading this thread, I for one will always ask the previous owner what type of oil they use before buying my next MB for sure. If they tell me they are not using the obvious, Mobil 1 0W40, I'll move on to the next seller. I might be ignorant but that is what MB recommend and the dealer use and are readily available in this country.

Neanicu888

+1000

BlackOmega

I can understand what you mean. I'm not sure where bobtheoilguy gets his info, of your typical off-the-shelf brands (not AMSoil, Royal purple, Redline, etc) Syntec is, by far, the best option. I did my own independent testing on various brands of Synthetics, and that is the conclusion I came up with. I don't have any empirical data, however, the ASTM does. Here is how it stacks up.




I don't believe the oil gets to 2000F, if it did, it would burn. Exhaust/turbo temps getting that high, definitely. However, combustion chamber temps will even exceed that.
The only assertion I made is that oil temperature is definitely not constant; and definitely A LOT higher than 176*F. Oil not only lubricates, it also dissipates (absrobs more accurately) heat. Hence a lot of super high performance engines, like the twin turbo Saleen S7, have pumps that spray the bottoms of the pistons with oil to help cool them. Granted that is an extreme example.
One of my first jobs was changing oil at a quick oil change place. I can tell you with utmost certainty, that the oil temperature difference between summer and winter was amazing. In the winter time, we could work with our bare hands because the oil was that much cooler. In the summer time, we had to wear kevlar heat gloves and sleeves in order not to get burned. And even then, the filters and oil were so hot, that you could barely touch them, even with the kevlar.

As far as ambient temps are concerned, the main issue is cold start up. Obviously an oil at lower temperature, regardless of weight, will be thicker (more viscous) than oil at operating temps. This is especially important because on cold start-ups, there is no oil pressure, and this is when most engine wear occurs. So the reason you want a 0 or 5 weight is so that the oil isn't as viscous and gets to where it needs to be faster.

The other part that ambient temps play on oil is heat dissipation. Obviously, you can dissipate a lot more heat at 32*F through the oilpan than you can at 125*F. The cumulative effect of ambient temps and the inhibited ability to dissipate heat efficiently at high temperatures is another key factor in choosing the appropriate weight for the vehicles intended purpose, regardless of whether the manufacturer approves of it or not.
Very true. It's just like gasoline. When you buy premium, you're not only paying for more octane, you're also paying for the additives in it.
I didn't touch on the different packages because I didn't think they were all that important.

I'm well aware that MB doesn't recommend 5w50, however, it is my personal belief (and that of several MB techs that I've spoken with) that 5w50 is a lot more suitable than say a 5w30 oil and definitely the best alternative if a MB approved oil is not available.
MB recommends oils based on "normal" driving conditions. When you no longer drive "normally", I have found, recommendations go out the window (unless you want catastrophic engine failure).

The most important factors when trying to determine which oil to buy:

1. Recommended oil weight.
This is your starting point. This gives you a rough idea of metering in the engine.

2.Ambient temperature.
As I mentioned before, you're not going to use a 20w50 weight oil in Alaska, while it may be appropriate for Az. This is mostly for cold starts and heat dissipation.

3. Driving style.
While it may be 3rd on the list, this is the most important, in my opinion.

Obviously a grandma that never sees over 3000 RPM isn't going to need any sort of special oil. Whereas a 16y/o kid that revs it to red line every time would.
The grandma could run regular dino oil and see 200k, whereas the kid would need a heavier weight synthetic to even see 150k.

Those factors are the most important, in my opinion. The first two are a starting point, and usually, determine what oil range you can run.

Most engines can safely handle slight weight changes. For instance if your engine calls for 0w, you can (usually) run a 5w oil and not have an issue. However, forget about 10w as it's too thick and would definitely result in engine damage.
Same with the second viscosity rating. Most engines that run a 5w30, could safely run a 5w40 without any discernible difference is performance.

So it is not beyond reason to assume that an engine that calls for 5w40 (like the M113), could safely run 5w50 if driving conditions determine the need for the increased viscosity.

tsquare

Just a couple of thoughts respectively - the engines in our W210 E55's also have piston skirt oil sprayers - remember, these motors in our W210 E55's are high performance engines. In addition, I do not believe that the AMG engineers designed these cars to be driven by conservative drivers of any age. Lastly, if you read through the threads in this forum, these cars and most importantly their engines are at an age where we are seeing mileage above 150,000 miles and not only running, but running incredibly strong. I have not read any posts of the 113 N/A motors having any catastrophic failures - and I would wager, that most if not all these cars were driven in anger during a good part of their life and ran Mobil 1 0-40 or 5-40

saintz

The chemical and mechanical engineers who built the engine did some testing, too. They do have empirical data. Their conclusions are very different from yours. I notice on bob's that one of the "tests" you did was to check the color of the oil and you thought an oil was bad because it go too dark. As another person noted, that may indicate a better oil with better additive (detergent) package. Did you send any of the oil for professional analysis?

That test was not conducted by the American Society for Testing and Materials. It was conducted by Amsoil and it is a promotional piece used by their dealers to sell their oil. Supposing the test was valid and you believe it, why are you running Syntec when Amsoil is clearly better oil?

The part missing from the test is the specific oil. The Castrol being tested here is not the 5W50 you favor (which is apparently an inferior Group III oil), it is the European spec Castrol Syntec (the one actually approved for Mercedes, a better oil, and a true Group IV). The Mobil being tested here is also most likely 5W30, which we already know is inferior to 0W40 both in base oil and additives. This is a complete apples to oranges comparison as, even if the test is impartial and reliable, all it tells us is that Castrol Euro formula is better oil than Mobil 1 non-Euro formula. The best thing I can infer from this is that the MB specs are correct, because approved Euro formula fluid is better than non-approved. The chart actually makes the case against your use of Castrol 5W50, if anything.


Oil viscosity/weight has 2 numbers. The first number is the viscosity when cold, denoted by the W for Winter. The second number is the viscosity at operating temperature. The engine is built for a given viscosity at operating temperature. Every 229.5 spec MB engine is built for a 30 or 40 weight oil. Switching to a 50 weight oil would be against everything MB engineers are telling you. Mercedes knows that Saudi's are very fond of racing their V12 twin turbo motors in the blistering desert and still recommends 0W40 to them.

The cold weight is based on ambient temperature. In theory, if you're going to switch a weight, this is the one you can safely switch. If you live in Nevada, it's summer, have a heated garage, or whatever, you could potentially safely run a 10W or even 15W oil because you don't need the 0W cold viscosity, assuming it had the same additive package, operating weight, etc. But such an oil doesn't exist. And it doesn't need to, because 0W40 is a better oil (it offers better cold start protection with the same operating temperature protection, the best of both worlds).

BlackOmega

Duly noted. I haven't researched the M113 in any sort of great detail so I was not aware that they had skirt sprayers. Good to know. I've been throwing around the idea, in my head, of doing some modifications to the engine to increase its power output. Insofar as even making a custom intake and headers, and other go fast goodies.

Thanks for the tid-bit of info about the M113.
Of course I didn't send it out for analysis. Why would I spend THOUSANDS simply to prove a point?

And for what it's worth, Syntec 5w50 is relatively dark right out of the bottle.
Was the color of the oil straight out of the bottle, or after running x amount of hours?

My testing was for no one but myself. My test vehicle was my 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L. This was a 400RWHP vehicle. No variable valve timing, no fuel injection, no oil slinger or piston skirt sprays or anything, 2 valves per cylinder, no OHC, nothing fancy. On top of that, it only held 5qts of oil; couldn't install an 8 qt. pan because of ground clearance. That car would leave our E55's in the dust.
The engine in that Mustang, was VERY sensitive to fluids. It had a high volume/high pressure oil pump in it. At idle, it had 80 PSI of oil pressure. Most engines don't have that @ full throttle.

I went through and tested all of the available Synthetics at my local Napa store. Valvoline, Pennzoil, Quakers State, and even Mobil 1 made no discernible difference to the way it ran over conventional dino oil.

Redline, Royal purple and AMSoil of course made a difference by lowering operating temps and having steadier oil pressure, not to mention, the engine actually revved faster. However these oils are typically $12+/qt.

The last oil I tried was the Syntec 5w50. It acted very similarly to the high dollar Synthetics, yet cost less than half (note this was a while ago when Mobil1 and Syntec was ~$5/qt).
So this is not empirical data, however, I am a certified technician, so I am definitely more attuned to differences in engine performance. I am VERY thorough, and VERY detail oriented. At the dealership I work at (Infiniti), I am requested by name, by engineers to repair/adjust their vehicles because I am so precise.

I'm not running Syntec. I'm running Total Quartz 9000 5w40, which is MB 229.5 spec.
For what it's worth, both AMG and my local MB dealer recommend 5w40 and made no mention of 0w40. Yes, I contacted AMG directly.

As for why I'm not running AMSoil, 1. availability, 2. cost. AMSoil is not readily available around here, and when it is, it's $12-13 per quart. That's twice the cost of what I get the Total Quartz for.

Also, what benefit does AMSoil have in stating that Syntec is better than Mobil 1? So I fail to see the relevance of that.
This is all fairly meaningless unless we have more details really.


Do you honestly think that I don't know about multi-viscosity?

Anyway, would it be unreasonable to assume that a company rep, because that's who you're talking to when you "talk to" MB, only states what they're told by higher ups, not by engineers, because that's what their warranty covers? More than likely, the people you speak with at MB don't know anything about cars at all.

Also, another thing you have to consider, MB is a business, and like all businesses, they want to make money. What would you make more money off of? Replacing a V12 engine, or selling 8 or more quarts of a heavier oil?

it's not without reason dedicated race cars run 20w50. You simply NEED that much protection when you're running an engine that hard.
You don't have to believe me, but so far, you have proven very little to sway my opinion any. I have years of experience in not only repairing cars, but modifying them to high HP levels. I have yet to have any sort of engine failure with the Syntec 5w50.
Isn't Nevada a hot state to begin with? I honestly don't know because I've never been there.

I'm not sure why you would need a heated garage in a hot state...

But for what it's worth, there is 15w40 oil.

Not sure where you're going with this.

I'll never run Mobil 1, or 0w40 in my M113. When I drive hard, I drive REALLY hard, I don't believe a 0 weight oil would cut it. maybe if it was ....30 below.

Nocturnal-G

BlackOmega, is the Total Quartz a full synthetic?

BlackOmega

Yep. They call it an "advanced" fully synthetic.

Here's a spec sheet. http://www.total-lubricants.ca/Pages...NT000087F6.pdf

Nocturnal-G

I replaced my oil today with Motul X-Cess 8100 5w40... and wow, what a oil!

Smoother engine, no more jitters coming to a stop. Definitely less valvetrain noise...

Let's see how long the effect lasts... definitely a quality oil!

slomofo

I buy 9qt of Mobil One 5w40 and the factory filter (made by Mann) from the dealer. They stock it in quarts. I pay $75. Why would I buy it anywhere else. They have the right stuff and there's no guess work. I love it when people try to overthink the process. Keep in mind that this engine was specified to have 5w30 in it in 1998. As times change, the data changes and the requirements alongside. There are plenty of MB M113 engines with over 200k that were running 5w30 at 10-11k intervals with no problems. I used to see them all the time at the last shop I ran. I would of course use the current spec oil but it's not like we're reinventing the wheel here.

Nocturnal-G

Never knew that...

And that's a cheap price from the dealer.